A question about the Bachmann 85 for those not buying them

[ThaneofFife]

Which just about sums the hobby and everyone in it up, in one easy sentence!

 

Lets try and look at this more positively rather than venture off into that tired old area of who models better or more authentically or more convincingly than the next guy.

 

This Class 85/AL5 is a real boon to those of us interested in such things whether we choose to have wires or not.

 

If Bachmann decide thats it we're not making anymore ACs due to poor sales then there isnt much we can do about that as we'd be past the point of no return - time to learn a bit of scratch building but at least the 85 chassis gives everyone a head start to doing this plus we have the warship 87/Heljan 86 chassis choices that have been shown to good effect by Jim SW.

 

Jims been posing his ACs on New Street station section for years without a wire in sight and nobody has baulked at the lack of OHLE there.

To me if that layout was mine I would run electrics too even if I wasnt going to erect overhead. It doesnt have the true authenticity or impact but when its your layout that shouldnt matter unless you are building a layout just to keep other folk happy/satisfied it meets with their approval.

 

Further interest will come I am sure when Bachmann get around to releasing AL5s with the small yellow warning panels. We have weathered options, a choice of almost 80 different numbers, 1 sub-85/1 class, across 4 liveries and its only a matter of time before a retailer releases "Fell Runner" as a special which I would certainly buy. Also it would be nice to see aa special of 85105 with the "Roarer Requiem" 1961-1991 headboards included. Its got some mileage this model and as i said earlier I dont think new AC models will depend on these initial sales - it will be looked at over a year or two - we have only had them 2 months now.

 

Dapol are on the cuspe of announcing some additional RTP catenary of some description ( I suggested to Dapol Dave the concept of small kits of OHLE parts to allow people to also build there own masts/gantries up where standard RTP catenary would not fit/suit). He would surely be onto a winner with some LMR lattice type gantries....

[ClikC]

An aspect that I'm surprised has not come up in this thread, but may well be worth exploring as a possible 'Bottle Neck' to modeling OHLE lines/ purchasing an 85, is that electrification and use of Electric locomotives typically only happens on Main Lines. So from a modeling point of view, there is very little (by persentage of overhead electrified lines) that could be fit into a small space (Of which surely all of us suffer from), when compared to southern region 3rd rail electrified lines, obviously talking in 4mm scale terms here.

 

I'm not a huge purchaser of modelling magizines. but i seem to recall after release of the 4-CEP a number of magizines having articals on modeling 3rd rail equipment, possible prototypes to model and various other insperational matterial to try to persuede people to have a crack at modelling a 3rd rail equiped line. I don't think the 85 has seen simular treatment this time around.

 

Perhaps we as a modelling community could come up with with a new thread, detailing some inspirational locations with links to photo's, details on traffic etc etc. Or even go a step further and make the next 2013 RMWeb (Layout?) challenge to try to get some more people invloved in the modelling of electrified lines. Even if it's just as some bonus points towards the final judging. Just a thought.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[steve1023]

10 month old son means money isn't freely available now. 2 years ago I bought what I liked with a bias to anything BR/SR and I would have bought a class 85 in original blue but now I have to save my pennies.

 

If it is the case that it isn't selling well (based purely on comments in this thread by people who apparently know) then maybe the best option isn't for the manufacturer to admit defeat and walk away but to make something else readily available to run alongside it - maybe a class 304 or 310 and not necesarily another AC loco to entice people in and maybe as mentioned a little earlier in the thread some generic WCML funiture in the scenecraft range - not everybody who has a model (railway/trainset - delete as appropriate) wants to have to resort to kits to supplement the fine looking class 85 and are being put off by a lack of other decent RTR WCML stuff to run alongside it. Bachmann have already done exactly this with the SR stuff - The 2EPB was announced before the 4CEP was even released so people were aware they could make a half decent SR layout and this is being backed up by the MLV and thumper and the scenecraft art deco station which compliment each other perfectly.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Steve

[Dagworth]

It could indeed Mark. Very much so.

 

There are those who will go without, some will use the Dapol stuff (although it's really for the ECML not the WCML so it's kinda like running your 85 with gresley teak coaches) and some will build their own.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

There's quite a bit of Mk3 equipment in the WCML OLE, it's just a bit further north... 85s under Dapol kit would suit fine for Cumbria.

 

Andi

[Ravenser]

An aspect that I'm surprised has not come up in this thread, but may well be worth exploring as a possible 'Bottle Neck' to modeling OHLE lines/ purchasing an 85, is that electrification and use of Electric locomotives typically only happens on Main Lines. So from a modeling point of view, there is very little (by persentage of overhead electrified lines) that could be fit into a small space (Of which surely all of us suffer from), when compared to southern region 3rd rail electrified lines, obviously talking in 4mm scale terms here.

 

I'm not a huge purchaser of modelling magizines. but i seem to recall after release of the 4-CEP a number of magizines having articals on modeling 3rd rail equipment, possible prototypes to model and various other insperational matterial to try to persuede people to have a crack at modelling a 3rd rail equiped line. I don't think the 85 has seen simular treatment this time around.

 

Perhaps we as a modelling community could come up with with a new thread, detailing some inspirational locations with links to photo's, details on traffic etc etc. Or even go a step further and make the next 2013 RMWeb (Layout?) challenge to try to get some more people invloved in the modelling of electrified lines. Even if it's just as some bonus points towards the final judging. Just a thought.

 

Regards

 

Matt

 

There is a real shortage of 25kV AC prototype layouts , certainly in 4mm. I can count the number of GE electric layouts I've seen on the fingers of one hand and have fingers spare. Other than Law Jnc in N I'm struggling to think of any ECML electric layouts. The WCML is not that much better.

 

I hope that Bachmann's enterprise with the 85 and 350 will see this change , but there's no doubt OHLE is a lot of work. WCML layouts in the "loco-hauled electric" era are remarkably rare when you consider it's well over 40 years from the first electrification to Crewe to the arrival of Pendolinos in squadron service, and that the WCML is our biggest and busiest main line network.

 

Even in the steam era the WCML seems to play second or third fiddle to the ECML - we don't see many big flagship layouts like Stoke Summit or Retford (P4 New St being a notable exception) . While WR hydraulics are popular enough we don't see their LMR contemporaries -- AL1-AL6 with sets of blue/grey Mk2s . There is a potential subject here - and all the more so when there is the potential for combining it with a subject flagged on another thread - the last days of steam in the NW. Class 85, blue/grey Mk2s and filthy Black 5s and 8Fs are an entirely prototypical mix : but nobody has picked up the gauntlet

[ClikC]

There is a real shortage of 25kV AC prototype layouts , certainly in 4mm. I can count the number of GE electric layouts I've seen on the fingers of one hand and have fingers spare. Other than Law Jnc in N I'm struggling to think of any ECML electric layouts. The WCML is not that much better.

 

I hope that Bachmann's enterprise with the 85 and 350 will see this change , but there's no doubt OHLE is a lot of work. WCML layouts in the "loco-hauled electric" era are remarkably rare when you consider it's well over 40 years from the first electrification to Crewe to the arrival of Pendolinos in squadron service, and that the WCML is our biggest and busiest main line network.

 

Even in the steam era the WCML seems to play second or third fiddle to the ECML - we don't see many big flagship layouts like Stoke Summit or Retford (P4 New St being a notable exception) . While WR hydraulics are popular enough we don't see their LMR contemporaries -- AL1-AL6 with sets of blue/grey Mk2s . There is a potential subject here - and all the more so when there is the potential for combining it with a subject flagged on another thread - the last days of steam in the NW. Class 85, blue/grey Mk2s and filthy Black 5s and 8Fs are an entirely prototypical mix : but nobody has picked up the gauntlet

 

Agreed. I'd love to tackle a 'steam under wires' like layout, but could only do it as part of a group project, as my main interest is Northwest WCML circa 1974. I can certainly see the appeal of it.

 

Regards

 

Matt

[ThaneofFife]

Carstairs Junction is/was the best 4mm prototype WCML layout I ever saw with lots of DC kits 81s and 85s alongside the Hornby 86s and Lima 87s. Not sure of its whereabouts these days but plenty of footage on youtube. It offers the best inspiration ever for a prototypical wcml location IMHO and it offers a good study of the OHLE employed.

 

I agree that a unit such as the AM10 would boost "interest" but would that interest necessarily lead to actual sales?

[298]

- My interests are on the eastern side of the country

- I live in a flat and have no space for a main line layout

- My main layout is a small non-electrified terminus, and it wouldn't suit the boxfile or a layout based on Croydon Tramlink either

 

I've just bought a Hornby L1 because I saw one marked down to £70 in a shop, it's allocated to a local shed, and I posted in the LNER Consensus thread where there was a sort of understanding that people would try to support what was produced. Also it would suit the little terminus a group I'm involved with talked about building, and as a last expedient it can pretend to be a preserved loco and work a steam special on my little terminus now I have a pair of suitable coaches ( I know none were preserved , but in the parallel universe where the layout happened, one might have been) And it goes with the Bachmann ROD, the unbuilt EM2 kit I got cheap when the local model shop closed down, the Y3, the second hand whitemetal N5 , and the J11 I shall certainly get because 40C Louth had some in the 1950s aslong with N5s and C12s. All of which starts to add up to add up to a coherent GC Section collection, and having travelled extensively on ex GC lines in Lincolnshire, maybe something could happen one day..

 

But an 85 fits with nothing, they don't excite me as a prototype, and since I've recently taken a significant drop in income, can't quite be bothered to go for a bargain Anglia 86 (which I saw, regularly) and have cupboards full of unstarted projects, this is one that I'm definitely sitting out

 

I'm not expecting you to rush out and buy one, but they were made in Doncaster.

[40 058]

I have OHLE, all built from scratch but its all 1500V DC! (Proper electrics! ) I have at least 12 class 76s, all from Heljan, with some 77s and Tommy on order too! So I model the wrong area, voltage, everything. But I still bought one and im tempted to get at least one more!! They are superb models and fully deserve to sell well. I just really hope its selling well enough to justify the other ACs coming out aswell. Id certainly buy them all, even more modern ones like the 90 and 92.

I dont now why I bought it really other than the good looks of it, I certainly cant really justify using it.

 

I think, if its not selling (I have no idea if it is or not) it will be the lack of OHLE that causes it. Most people wont/cant build it themselves or would rather spend their money on a new loco, coach, wagon etc than something like OHLE.

I built all my own DC OHLE but I have the time, money and desire to do it, many people dont have these things, or the necassary skills, tools etc to do it. It takes some time and patience to do aswell, and DC is pretty simple compared to AC! I honestly dont know if I could do AC, certainly not to the standards of jim s-w! Thats just my thoughts anyway, but it tells a story that electrics havent really been touched much until now by the main manufacturers. Hopefully this model will change this though.

[Sutton Junction]

My reason for not buying one is simply that its not in my prefered era. I model modern era from 1995 onwards so I would much rather wait and hope they choose to make a Class 86 and 87 too. It does look a great model though and to be honest im very tempted but I would rather spend my money on other models

[Guest jim s-w]

Jims been posing his ACs on New Street station section for years without a wire in sight and nobody has baulked at the lack of OHLE there.

To me if that layout was mine I would run electrics too even if I wasnt going to erect overhead.

 

Not that long - I used to use the plank for AC stuff but careful cropping does help. I would like to think that people accept New Street without overhead as they know its work in progress and that it will be done. Its just a shame that it pretty much has to be the last thing that goes in.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[reevesthecat]

I am hoping Dapol announce more OHLE and maybe a new AC electric to give a further boost to AC electric modelling and hopefully a new AC electric will appeal to more modellers than the class 85 did, as the range builds it should pull more people interested in different eras and locations in. (if its up to the quality of the 85 that is)!!

mark

[ScRSG]

I've bought one cos' it is a superb model and has memories of visits to Crewe when they were just introduced and ran alongside steam.

 

On another matter, was returning to Scotland recently on M74 and running parallel to WCML, it dawned on me that in any background other than sky, the wires were virtually invisible, but obviously you could see the masts. So the Dapol catenary masts would be all that is required to be convincing and would certainly help in track maintenance!

[rob D2]

I love the model but sadly , out of period/location.

I would love to have an example of all the new RTR stuff coming out, inc stuff like the 85, Dapol 73 etc, but I think it's a sign of the economics situation faced by many that I have to be very careful what I buy.

 

I am slightly concerned that as most the wide geographical prototypes have been covered, the manufacturers are turning to more niche items. which by definition must mean a more limited market. For example the london midland 350 - unless you are modelling the current scene on the WCML what use would you have for one ? A very specific item indeed unless there are applications we don't know about.

 

My fear being that if they can't shift these items and they end up being 'bargains' on say, hattons, Bachmann will lose all interest in developing anything else with a OHLE application.Similar fear with the 750vDC stuff....

 

I do wonder if a class 87 would have been a better bet.More liveries , wider historic period ??

[ThaneofFife]

 

I do wonder if a class 87 would have been a better bet.More liveries , wider historic period ??

 

Yeah definitely compared to the 85s but pipped by the 86 methinks for the sheer varieties and timelines.

 

I guess they felt that as Hornby have those locos covered (albeit badly by todays standards) another class would make more sense in terms of having nothing to compete against.

[Jon Gwinnett]

 

 

There's quite a bit of Mk3 equipment in the WCML OLE, it's just a bit further north... 85s under Dapol kit would suit fine for Cumbria.

 

Andi

 

Andi's captured why I haven't bought one (yet!) my main interests are US, then southern region at various periods. If I buy a blue 85 then I'm going to want to try to fit Oxenholme in 1980-84 into my loft, and I just can't see how I'd shoehorn another idea in. Mind you, I ordered a pair of isle of wight o2s without the same agonising, so perhaps I have no excuse. Maybe Friday's trip to Harburn will change my mind again!

[petee19]

Like many others I have no OHLE (nor 3rd rail come to that for the CEP's,EPB's,and about to arrive the MLV ) but have the Electric Blue 85,all these models appeal to me and I see no reason why I shouldn't run them.

It was the announcement by Bachmann several years ago that they were producing the CEP that started me off into the world of model railways again after a lapse of 30 years.

I really hope that this is the start of yet more Electric models from the 50's / 60's both overhead and 3rd rail,EMU's and Loco's.

 

Pete.

[Chris Higgs]

To be honest, my "other reason" was that at current prices, it's a bit to much to buy one to sit in a display case. I am tendng to make my modelling budget go a bit further by focussing on items at special prices. If any go on at a bargain, I will probably be tempted.

 

Chris

[Crewlisle]

Ravenser Posted a comment on 15 July (No. 81) about the lack of WCML layouts like ECML Stoke Summit or Retford. Reading Model Rail 166 (March 2012) the main layout feature was the 00 gauge layout New Mills and was exhibited at Model Rail Scotland this year. It used to be set in the 1990s with OHLE but they have now gone back to the 1960s and now run it as the WCML, retaining the OHLE, with Duchesses, green diesels, electrics, etc.. It is 32 ft x 2 ft (scenic section) and is just a four track section of the WCML with no stations plus a high level main line at the back. Ideal for a crowd pleaser with an endless procession of full length expresses and goods trains. I don't know where it is next being exhibited but as a WCML fan it would be worth going to see.

With reference to the OHLE question, some of you may have seen my own 00 gauge DCC exhibition layout 'Crewlisle' at the NEC in 2009, Ally Pally and Taunton last year. Layout is on 3 interconnected levels with continuous run double track main line representing the WCML with overhead catenary for scale 100mph running on the middle level and it is all portable. It is half way between the basic Hornby/Lima OHLE of 30 years ago and the super detailed OHLE on 'Birmingham New Street'. Because the catenary is in the middle of the layout, sprayed with grey primer, it looks like the real thing and blends in perfectly with the railway scene. It only has the actual catenary wire but no other details such as the earth wire carried between masts. Viewed from about 1M it looks like the real thing.

 

So come on; meet the challenge head on. You don't have to have super detailed catenary to get the right effect.

[ThaneofFife]

Ravenser Posted a comment on 15 July (No. 81) about the lack of WCML layouts like ECML Stoke Summit or Retford.

 

Think I am right in saying that Ravenser was referring to "prototype" WCML layouts of which I only know New Street and Carstairs. I believe New Mills is a fictional location but it does have the flavour of the west coast - to me it kind of reminds me of Rugby post-modernisation with that typical 1960s flyover architecture. New Mills as a stand alone layout is a great watch for viewers with those full length expresses. The period depicted isnt for me with kettles and electric blue ACs. I would like to see it modelling the early 1980s with blue grey stock and lots of blue ACs.

[rob D2]

Interesting about the 10 %, although if 50% arent interested, that is 10% of 50 % surely , ie 20 % !I would have thought if you were really serious about the WCML and really wanted to model it, you would find a way to get OHLE.

 

I guess we are moving towards the areas of motivation and nostalgia that we frequently debate but as another poster has noted the 85s were local to large population centres, maybe they just didn't fire the enthusiasm of many.

 

On the flipside and on t he same basis the 750V DCs should fly off the shelves as the south east is very population heavy and how many countless 100s of thousands used them everyday ! But there must be psychological reasons why they seem to be in the bargain bins already. Mundane ? Reminder of work? Uncharismatic ?SR short on loco movements ?

 

Again I would love to know how over subscribed models of west highland 37s , in comparison to the number of people who live in the region or ever visited it !

[mp55aec]

Im going the buy the club model thats about it really, I do want OHLE on my layout and in my loft I do have a box of French JV system from the 80's thats very similar to UK outline, Marno Models who advertise in Conti Mod can get it but eratic supplies, its a lot of expense for one desiro and my 85, as I said earlier in the year a rtr 310 would be nice

[Guest jim s-w]

The southern pride kit is one of the nicest to build on the market (if you really do want one)

 

 

Hth

 

Jim

[mp55aec]

I'd love to build one, and greatly admire yours,,,but alas Im diabetic and my numb fingers couldnt cope and to get one built for me well,,,,pass me the balaclava and shotgun please lol,

[Electrostar]

I admire anyone who models OHLE, third rail or scratch-builds but for those of us who don't or haven't the confidence, I take comfort knowing that many of the best layouts still have static road vehicles and people who don't board trains. In the end it's a model and you make of it what you will or can. The ultimate goal is enjoyment in your hobby - whether that's from a class 85 running with a pan down or under the wires.