Dapol 2012/13 (and now 2014) O gauge range discussion thread

[boxbrownie]

I guess we will see eh?

 

[Poggy1165]

It would be interesting to know the physics around the propulsion of vehicles around a tight curve. My own experiences suggests these things are a factor:

 

1. Whether the buffers work correctly. (Possibly the least significant element)

2. The wheelbase of the wagons.

3. The relative weight of wagons compared to one another.

4. The wheelbase of the loco doing the propelling.

 

The 'cheats' I have seen on other people's railways:

 

1. To use slightly larger buffer heads.

2.  To put a 'bar' across the buffers. Very unsightly to my eyes, but I suppose no more so than many 'automatic' coupling solutions.

 

I don't mean to suggest these are the only factors or the only solutions. However, if I wanted a yard with very tight radii I would shunt it with a small loco (probably a 0-4-0 tank), use only short wheelbase wagons and make sure all the wagons weighed roughly the same amount. I think I might also be tempted to ensure that every buffer worked, and I might even go to some trouble to spring or compensate every item of stock. Funnily enough, it might work better in S7 as the 'official' 0 Gauge standards have a lot of slop in them, and this can lead (if not catered for in some way) to buffer heads not meeting properly even on straight track.

[adrianbs]

Hi   Poggy  You have  mentioned a number of points which have a bearing on this, in particular the buffer bar ( or some other bar as per a tension lock

  coupler ) and the  oversize buffer heads.  The latter caused me some amusement years back when I first offered my range of scale size buffer heads to

  replace the "Classic" abs models drawing pin for the rivet counters.  The modellers showed great interest especially as I offered such a range of sizes

  which other firms had not done.  However when many of the punters asked what size to use on Pre '23  wagons and I showed them the scale 12"  ( 7mm dia. )

  correct option they said they were far too small and did I have something larger to prevent buffer locking. Many then bought the 16" option which in fact was

  slightly larger  than  the drawing pin being replaced but they seemed totally happy to pay my exorbitant prices !!!!!

Buffer locking is, as you say, largely a matter of the sideways displacement of the buffers dependant on the distance of the wheels from the headstock,

  usually on longer wheelbase vehicles, coaches where bogies are set well in from the ends and the type of loco.  These factors are dwarfed by what will happen if

  Dapol do produce their rigid 3 link.  Firstly they will have to narrow their hooks and/or widen the links as they have no play  between them and there is not a lot of

  play in the hook pocket. This means the rigid links will have little sideplay and will be unable to cope with the displacement on an adjacent vehicle.  This problem

  has  been touched on elsewhere because the top link fails to drop after uncoupling.  If these problems are addressed, as stated earlier by someone else, the

  hook design  will need changing or the links will ride up against the vehicle end. This would happen even with over-running and any attempt to modify the hook

  will further spoil its  rather chunky proportions,  Should they manage to overcome the above as others have tried before them they will come up against the final

  fatal flaw in the design. As the vehicles are propelled and the angle of the links increases the outer/bottom link will suddenly slide sideways through the hook, lock

  everything up and probably derail the wagons as the buffers will then also lock.

Poggy is absolutely right about Guild finescale standards which allow far more sideways play in the wheel flange to rail  than is really necessary. Many of

  the more advanced modellers either increase the back to back ( Thereby giving problems on other layouts ) or decrease the gauge on straight track and do not

  gauge widen on curves,  Flexy track does sometimes gauge narrow as the radius decreases which can be a problem if is used with increased back to back.

  The idea of a rigid three link coupling has been discarded over the years by many who have tried it (including myself ! )  but perhaps "NotDapolDave" has less

  background knowledge of O gauge than some of us older modellers.  

        Thats the physics or perhaps I should have said mechanics of it, I wait to hear if  Dapol have achieved the impossible !!     Adrian

[boxbrownie]

Why the "notdapoldave" jibe?

 

Totally unecessary.........

 

In fact I think Dapol has achieved the impossible, by helping to bring O gauge out of the "branchlines" and into the mainline of modelling at last, without the likes of Dapol, Heljan amongst a few others O gauge would still be far from the "senior scale" more like a minor player.

 

Long may they try new innovations.

[two tone green]

Heljan has, Dapol have got a few wagons out and they are not exactly 100%

[boxbrownie]

Heljan has, Dapol have got a few wagons out and they are not exactly 100%

No, but at least they are trying

[two tone green]

Time will tell as they say.

[adrianbs]

      Hi  All,   In reply to boxbrownie I would say that  O gauge has been in the mainstream  for at least 15 years, long before Lionheart  Heljan, Skytrex 

      Dapol et al came along. If it had not been a mainstream scale these firms would not have touched it with a barge pole.  The size of the show and

      attendances at Telford over those years has hardly increased and  nor has Guild net membership. I have no idea how long he has been modelling

      in  7mm but if he has been to going to Telford over that time he would know.   Dapol's contribution has hardly been the most important of the mass

      produced ranges, indeed it is well behind the other 3 mentioned ranges either in scope and/or quality and/or price to date  

                 Happy modelling   Adrian

[cromptonnut]

But isn't that the whole point?  O gauge isn't "mainstream" partly because for so many years it has been the domain of the "highly skilled" whereas now Dapol (and others) have dipped a toe in the water to see whether there is a market for ready to run O gauge, and clearly there is.

 

Historically, of course, O gauge was a 'ready to run' scale with the likes of pre-war tinplate Hornby etc - albeit generally very coarse by today's standards. 

[frobisher]

Hi  All,   In reply to boxbrownie I would say that  O gauge has been in the mainstream  for at least 15 years, long before Lionheart  Heljan, Skytrex 

      Dapol et al came along. If it had not been a mainstream scale these firms would not have touched it with a barge pole.

This would be some other mainstream that's somewhere off of the mainstream then? Until Heljan dipped their toes, you didn't see RTR O gauge in high street shops in the UK. Now you do. That's what most punters probably consider mainstream.

[cromptonnut]

This would be some other mainstream that's somewhere off of the mainstream then? Until Heljan dipped their toes, you didn't see RTR O gauge in high street shops in the UK. Now you do. That's what most punters probably consider mainstream.

 

Unfortunately many 7mm modellers do have a mindset all of their own so it's difficult to equate 7mm modelling to any other scale.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Why the "notdapoldave" jibe?

 

Totally unecessary.........

 

In fact I think Dapol has achieved the impossible, by helping to bring O gauge out of the "branchlines" and into the mainline of modelling at last, without the likes of Dapol, Heljan amongst a few others O gauge would still be far from the "senior scale" more like a minor player.

 

Long may they try new innovations.

Hi Box Brownie,

 

Sadly I have to agree with you. Dapol have indeed achieved the impossible in 7mm - they have brought out a whole new range of wagons that are all, by and large, incorrect (and then they flogged them to death in every livery, shape and hue - without submitting such for review to the likes of MRJ or the GOG et al.), that is, to my mind, akin, to the emperors new clothes (LOL!!).

 

Whilst I support Dapol's endeavours and I wish them well, sadly to date, all that they have produced, in 7mm scale, is a range of planked wagons - most of which are incorrect - a range, in a small market place, which duplicated the Lionheart models (which are correct and just a few £'s more in price point - and sometimes, if lucky, can be purchased on special offer etc. and can then be had a good prices which are more comparable to Dapol's price point).

 

Why, when there is such a large amount of reference material, did Dapol get these intro models so wrong (I think that is what Adrian was trying to say), perhaps Dave hasnt the background in 7mm scale when compared to others, that's okay, and after all we are all ignorant to something (ie it is impossible for any one human-being to know all), yet the info required to make a model accurate - when compared to the prototype - applies to all/any scale and gauge combination.

 

Heljan models are increasing in price (for various resaons - legitimate and not so), so IMHO, Dapol now have a golden opportunity to bring out an accurate range of 7mm scale models at good prices (we are after all still in recesssion) - to date, IMHO, this is still an unknown/remains to be seen though.

 

Getting the 08 and Terrier right is key for Dapol now, yet, the real acid test, IMHO, will be the SR Pillbox et al. (in terms of Dapol's commitment to accuracy and good prices etc.).

 

I for one hope that they do get it right - from now on - as I would like to be a Dapol customer.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

[boxbrownie]

Unfortunately many 7mm modellers do have a mindset all of their own so it's difficult to equate 7mm modelling to any other scale.

  Yep......and that i why I would not bother entering this kind of comment in the GOG forums for fear of being strung up next time I visit Telford, which leads me onto very neatly how long I have been modelling in 7mm........I started and joined the GOG back in the mid seventies, after some years struggling with the lack of support with my area of interest sudden increase in my family population meant if I didn't abandon 7mm and move to 4mm to enable full running (and interesting to small people) layouts my enjoyment of the hobby would never be passed on to my children (which was not a situation I was willing to bare), after that career and business meant all modelling was left on the far back burner until my recent early retirement.........so you see Adrian I have been "doing this" for quite a while and for sure over the past seven years or so I have been back visiting the show the attendance has grown......which I wonder how much is in part down to the increased market presence of the RTR manufacturers?

[boxbrownie]

CME, I agree entirely......but as I said before.....at least they are trying!

 

I would only hope they listen to the more knowledgable customers and take heed of the problems and the next cycle plans models may even make "old lags" happy, but I doubt that very much....not unless the models came packed in a flux stained box that burnt your fingers upon opening

[CME and Bottlewasher]

CME, I agree entirely......but as I said before.....at least they are trying!

 

I would only hope they listen to the more knowledgable customers and take heed of the problems and the next cycle plans models may even make "old lags" happy, but I doubt that very much....not unless the models came packed in a flux stained box that burnt your fingers upon opening

Hi David,

 

I agree with your post (herewith).

 

Not all modellers of 7mm are as you have described though - I, for one, am not - and life/technology/attitudes have moved on, yet I know what you mean (LOL!!).

 

Dapol 'trying' aint really the point though is it, especially when cash is hard to come by, and as subject matter experts, Dapol have taken, in some's estimations, approx. £70k out of a small market-place - one which is already struggling, but I guess that such is the price that we all pay for capitalism.

 

Yet each to their own and I make no value judgements on modellers' buying preferences etc. - and I expect that some of the Dapol wagons look okay behind a loco - en masse - running around a nice garden layout.

 

I too thought that attendance had grown for Telford and, indeed, the likes of Bristol, yet I understand from Traders et al. that has been at the cost of/to other smaller shows.....

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

[adrianbs]

    Hi All    Capitalism rules !!   It looks like Dapol have got their first scalp with the announcement that  SKYTREX are now "IN ADMINISTRATION",  I feared there

    were problems some time ago, see my posts in another forum about the range having contracted significantly.   I fear this may not be the last,   there is

    only so much money around in  this sector of the hobby and if price is the only factor which determines many peoples buying decisions, it may not be long

    before they claim another victim.

I have no idea which part of Skytrex, they had a very broad range of products, has been responsible but had the quality of their O gauge wagons,

   coaches and locos been a lot better they would probably have seen off Dapol, especially as their range was so much more comprehensive.  I would suggest

   that those who expect all the currently available high quality products to be available for ever, seriously consider parting with some of their cash now,  if

   they have any, They may find that  the models are no longer so easy to come by,or the prices have gone SKY HIGH. 

It will be very interesting to see where the railway range goes, or if it survives at all.  I expect it depends if anyone has deep enough pockets as the

  asking price is rumoured to be in seven figures for the whole business !!!.  

               Regards to all and my sympathy to the workers at Skytrex who may well be losing their jpbs.        Adrian

[cromptonnut]

I really don't think you can blame Dapol for the demise of Skytrex - it's all been covered in some depth elsewhere on the forum (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74917-skytrex-in-administration/) and the railway wagons were only a small part of the railway range, which was a small part of their overall range.

 

If you look at post 10 in the above link they were £2.3 million the wrong side of zero in 2011 and £2.1 million the wrong side of zero in 2012.  That's a lot of Dapol wagons... 42,000 in fact (and that's just selling price, not profit of course) and I am pretty sure that Dapol haven't sold anywhere near that amount of wagons...

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi All    Capitalism rules !!   It looks like Dapol have got their first scalp with the announcement that  SKYTREX are now "IN ADMINISTRATION",  I feared there

    were problems some time ago, see my posts in another forum about the range having contracted significantly.   I fear this may not be the last,   there is

    only so much money around in  this sector of the hobby and if price is the only factor which determines many peoples buying decisions, it may not be long

    before they claim another victim.

I have no idea which part of Skytrex, they had a very broad range of products, has been responsible but had the quality of their O gauge wagons,

   coaches and locos been a lot better they would probably have seen off Dapol, especially as their range was so much more comprehensive.  I would suggest

   that those who expect all the currently available high quality products to be available for ever, seriously consider parting with some of their cash now,  if

   they have any, They may find that  the models are no longer so easy to come by,or the prices have gone SKY HIGH. 

It will be very interesting to see where the railway range goes, or if it survives at all.  I expect it depends if anyone has deep enough pockets as the

  asking price is rumoured to be in seven figures for the whole business !!!.  

               Regards to all and my sympathy to the workers at Skytrex who may well be losing their jpbs.        Adrian

 

Hi Adrian,

 

That is sad news indeed.

 

Yet, I am not surprised, as their rolling stock range, unless bought on special offer, was wide of the mark, price and quality wise IMHO.

 

The updated NMB range was a step in the right direction.

 

Sadly TPTB and banks show no remorse and still havnt changed thus there is still 'pressure' on the economic system, when if everyone was 'in it together' it would have all been turned around by now, so, as you say, expect more 'casualties'.

 

It could be argued that in terms of their wagon sales strategy that Dapol did have a - small - part to play in SKYTREX's downfall (£70k worth?), that said though, Skytrex were wide of the mark - they also looked, so I am informed, to put certain of their competitors out of business, karma?

 

As I have Posted, here and elsewhere, before there is very little room for product 'duplication' in this scale and gauge.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

[adrianbs]

  Hi All,    In reply  to cromptonnut it is probably not wholly down to Dapol but I am sure a few of the last nails in the coffin were supplied by them.  From

   what I read Skytrex had been disposing of their other ranges with a veiw to concentrating on the railway range and some of the military series had

   already gone to new homes.  The new wagons from   Dapol were marginally better but somewhat cheaper and combined with announcements of items

   duplicating some of the modern image wagons this must have been a major disincentive for customers to continue buying Skytrex.  It does not take

   much of a reduction in sales, when outstanding debts are so astonishingly high, for the sound of plugs being pulled to become deafening.

It would be extremely interesting to hear from the owners what they believe was the last  straw although I doubt we will know for a while, if ever.

  I wonder when or indeed if the Dapol modern image wagons will appear and what the price will be  now they have no competitors !!!  At least Lionheart

  will keep them from increasing their POW prices much whilst he can maintain his, even though most of the Dapol "Specials" cost more than a Lionheart

  wagon.

Once again we have seen a mass production range of O gauge rolling stock etc fail, whilst the "Kitchen Table"  firms appear to be thriving, mainly 

  because of superior quality even if prices are higher.  I am sure many modellers still enjoy the challenge of building things even though fewer and fewer

  come into the hobby with the requisite skills and tools.  I had an interesting 30 minutes today explaining how to assemble parts of one of my wagon kits

  especially when I found the modeller was trying to build an O gauge kit which he thought was OO.  It also transpired that he had no pin chucks or minidrill

  only a handrill of the general handyman type.  He did not have any flux for soldering, just multicore electrical solder but at least he HAD a soldering iron

  but I dread to think what type, I do hope it was not one of the ones you heat up on the gas ring !!!

                Regards to all    Adrian

[trisonic]

http://Dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=179_298_299_328

 

"Anticipated release date February 2014".

It says they are still at the design stage.  Overly optimistic I'd say. I'm beginning to wonder if they will not be quietly dropped. Don't quote me though - it's my large gut talking.

 

Best, Pete.

[two tone green]

You could well be right Pete.

[boxbrownie]

^{I would be surprised if they didn't have enough pre-orders to justify at least one production run, if not then this hobby deserves what it gets.}

 

^{Manufacturers need support, no matter how big or small they be!}

[adrianbs]

     H all,   Having spoken to Skytrex at Bristol this year they confirmed that the very vociferous modern image modellers clamouring for  bulk train wagons

    were less than forthcoming when it came to buying the numbers required to make production of these relatively complex models worth while.  They had

    already found that there was insufficient demand for reruns of many of their wagons and they had not spent nearly as much on tooling as would be 

    needed  for a fully mass produced wagon.  We have now seen the RTR unpainted  modern image Bachmann wagons disappear and it looks like the

    Skytrex ones will not reappear even if the firm survives.   My experience of the modern image market has been casting for Dave Parkins, then known

    as Post War Prototypes  and my contacts with another manufacturer,  Both said that buying kits of this type in bulk had not been a great success

    RJH bought the PWP range and went into liquidation a few years later having lost, in real terms, probably more than  Skytrex.  Fortunately the only

    loser at RJH had been the, by then, deceased  multimillionaire owner !!  The other gentleman ceased production as financially he did not consider it

    a viable market.  

As far as preorders are concerned it will depend  if the modellers are required to put their money on the table before tooling is  started, many

   modellers have already voiced concerns about preordering other models from Dapol having seen what they got in their POW boxes  but they are

   probably  a different group to the modern image modellers for obvious reasons.  At the moment Heljan will be the first to tool up for a fully mass

   produced, relative modern, bulk train wagon.  Will modellers buy 20 or so identical wagons to produce an accurate train and will they be prepared

   to heavily weather most of them for the sake of authenticity if they are not available preweathered ??  We will soon know.

             Regards to all    Adrian

[CME and Bottlewasher]

^{I would be surprised if they didn't have enough pre-orders to justify at least one production run, if not then this hobby deserves what it gets.}

 

^{Manufacturers need support, no matter how big or small they be!}

Hi,

 

That all depends on if they have the in-house skills to now produce such in 7mm.

 

Kind regards,

 

CME

[cromptonnut]

I think there's enough of us on here at least to not let it be "quietly dropped" from production... there's a lot of people waiting for the 08 and Terrier (and the modern wagons) as the impetus to push them into giving 7mm modelling a go.