As promised - my overall impressions of DCC sound

[panniertank]

I finally got my Bachmann pannier tank back from it's very long sojourn in Australia where it was sent to have a sound chip fitted (Loksound I believe) and also two scale size loco lamps which both work beautifully. This whole operation cost a LOT of money, and in all truth, I would never have bothered had I known the bother and poorish performance of the actual running of this loco.

I thoroughly cleaned the track, wheels (tyres and inside of wheels where the 6 contacts pick up) and the loco just keeps 'stuttering' with the resultant breaks in sound - so, all in all, I 'aint a very happy bunny. But before I get too critical, I think this bad running is partly due to this loco's light weight - it probably needs more weight to keep it firmly 'stuck' to the rails. In conclusion, I am NOT going to recommend anyone to send off their loco for chipping to DCCConcepts of Australia, unless you are prepared for an extremely long wait, and a hefty bill.

The sounds themselves are quite good I must say, but then after what it's cost, I would hope so !

[brossard]

Sound decoders seem to be more sensitive to uneven track than DC or non sound decoders. I had a Hornby 08 (the new one) with a Loksound decoder and it never worked properly - had a lot of trouble negotiating electrofrog points at low speed, with the sound cutting out. After several disassemblies and a lot of futzing with wipers, I gave up and got the Bachmann version. This loco is much better, not least because it has a sprung center axle.

 

Something to try - take off the keeper plate and put some 0.010" or 0.015" plastic card at the leading and trailing axles and reassemble. This should let the center axle float giving it a better chance of staying in contact with the track.

 

John

[Orion]

Is the decoder of the stay-alive type? If so, I am very surprised it behaves as it does. All newer Loksound decoders have the facility to fit a "power pack"

 

Safe operation

If desired it is possible to connect a PowerPack (ESU Art.No. 54670) to the LokSound V4.0, as to all other ESU decoders of the 4th generation. This energy storage continues to supply the decoder with energy if the power consumption is not isn´t optimal due to dirty tracks.

[SRman]

I have one of the newer style Bachmann panniers (in LT livery) with a DCC decoder fitted (but not sound); it runs beautifully. I would recommend checking that all of the pickups are actually doing their jobs. Test the loco with leads, one pair of wheels at a time to see which ones are picking up power and which are not - or, at the very least, working intermittently.

[Ed-farms]

Is the stuttering short rapid spurts or occasional longer ones? If short and rapid the sound volume might be too high - if you can reduce CV63 on your controller this may help the stuttering.

[Pannier Tank]

I finally got my Bachmann pannier tank back from it's very long sojourn in Australia where it was sent to have a sound chip fitted (Loksound I believe) and also two scale size loco lamps which both work beautifully. This whole operation cost a LOT of money, and in all truth, I would never have bothered had I known the bother and poorish performance of the actual running of this loco.

 

Was the locomotive a good smooth runner on DC i.e before conversion to DCC?

[RedgateModels]

In my experience loksound chips run better over time, it's almost that the wheels etc need to get used to the chip. Try an extended running in session and it might help.

[beast66606]

Maybe I missed something but the thread title is

 

As promised - my overall impressions of DCC sound

 

 

This thread has nothing to do with that !

[marc smith]

Hmm, strange one this...

I myself find that dcc chipped locos run really well

Far, far better than any dc powered locos...

with one exception in my case - a dcc sound and light fitted Hornby 08 shunter

It's a South West digital chip - NOT the Hornby version

 

That model really stutters and cuts out - more so when the sound is running

It seems to run better without the sound on - but still not as well as my Hornby and Bachmann non-sound decoder 08's....

Perhaps it's something do do with the additional amount of current needed?

Or some other related current drawn / motor type incompatibilty?

 

Incidentally, with sound running, the lights don't seem to make any difference,

whether they are on or off.....

 

As an assessment of dcc sound,

It really depends on the quality of the recording / and or decoder and speaker

I for one am completely sold on dcc sound

I just wouldn't be without it these days

 

Anyone with ideas as to how to solve the problem with my 08, or panniertanks' problems..

.. please let us know

 

Cheers

[Andy Y]

I 'aint a very happy bunny.

 

Can I respectfully suggest that the first port of call should be the business who carried out the work for you.

[Oldddudders]

Little doubt in my mind that sound decoders - not just Loksound - do make demands of the pickups that even silent decoders do not. I found this with Bachmann's On30 rail-trucks, which arrived with DCC fitted, and which in both case ran faultlessly out of the box. Once I'd fitted a sound decoder (Soundtraxx) the running became much less tractable, despite my having made no alteration to the pickups whatever. ISTR that Loksound has a CV which eliminates the "return to start" sequence that can drive you mad, especially if you have a value set in CV3 - acceleration. Downloading the latest CV list would enable some experimenting, at least.

 

Try here http://www.esu.eu/nc/en/downloads/instruction-manuals/digital-decoders/?tx_esudownloads_pi1%5Blanguage%5D=US

[Nigelcliffe]

Anyone with ideas as to how to solve the problem with my 08, or panniertanks' problems..

.. please let us know

 

After clean wheels, clean pickups and accurate track...... And I really mean clean...

 

Then, as indicated above, stay alive capacitors. You need the largest (by stored electricity) capacitors that will fit in the space, though adding almost anything you can fit into the space will make a noticeable improvement. A capacitor circuit will need a couple of other components to control charging and discharge (just resistors and diodes, nothing really fancy, consult the decoder manual for that make of decoder).

 

Perhaps the least hassle "super caps" might be the TCS KA1 or KA2 modules; they include the charging resistor and diodes, though lack a discharge resistor (so the decoder will stay on low power after removing from the track for 30 minutes or more). The KA1/KA2 can be fitted to other makers decoders if you identify the correct wiring points. Both Zimo and ESU Loksound V4's have solder pads for attaching this sort of energy storage and instructions in their manuals on how to install capacitor circuits, so finding the correct wiring points is "read the manuals".

 

Decent decoder installers should know how to fit these devices.

 

 

- Nigel

[marc smith]

After clean wheels, clean pickups and accurate track...... And I really mean clean...

 

Then, as indicated above, stay alive capacitors. You need the largest (by stored electricity) capacitors that will fit in the space, though adding almost anything you can fit into the space will make a noticeable improvement. A capacitor circuit will need a couple of other components to control charging and discharge (just resistors and diodes, nothing really fancy, consult the decoder manual for that make of decoder).

 

Perhaps the least hassle "super caps" might be the TCS KA1 or KA2 modules; they include the charging resistor and diodes, though lack a discharge resistor (so the decoder will stay on low power after removing from the track for 30 minutes or more). The KA1/KA2 can be fitted to other makers decoders if you identify the correct wiring points. Both Zimo and ESU Loksound V4's have solder pads for attaching this sort of energy storage and instructions in their manuals on how to install capacitor circuits, so finding the correct wiring points is "read the manuals".

 

Decent decoder installers should know how to fit these devices.

 

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks for your reply Nigel,

however, the wheels & pickups are clean..

... I have also added additional pickups

which helped a little

 

I'm not sure how much room there is left for an additional stay-alive capacitor

space is incredibly tight in the 08....

Additionally, this model has express models lighting installed...

 

Do they make a capacitor unit small enough to fit in the 08 cab,

which can be used in conjunction with the existing SWD chip?

 

I'll be getting myself a stay-alive unit, for my next 08 dcc install

... think I'll leave sound out for the moment tho...

 

Cheers again

[Nigelcliffe]

Marc,

there is room if you want to create it, but it may require some hacking inside to create space.

An 08 is huge compared to a L&Y 0-4-0 battery-electric, I have 3 stay-alive capacitors inside one of those, totally hidden from view.

http://nigelcliffe.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/l-0-4-0-electric-nearing-completion.html

 

Assuming its a version 4 LokSound, (rather than an older version 3.5), then there are solder pads to add a capacitor circuit. See the decoder manual from ESU - figure 24. page 26 of the manual dated "may 2012".

 

ESU sell their own "super cap" device for the Loksound v4, called the PowerPack. It is fairly expensive in shops at over £30, and 22 x 10 x 14 mm.

 

The TCS KA1 and KA2 are basically six "super caps" in series plus the diode and resistor inrush control, they are cheaper, typically under £20. They provide an alternative to the ESU module, with probably longer stay-alive life, but only rated to 16v track voltage. They benefit from fitting an approximately 1kOhm resistor in parallel with the two wires to the TCS unit, this will discharge the unit in a few minutes, which can avoid mistakes with decoders still on low power from the capacitors after half an hour or more.

 

Or you can assemble your own from individual components, though expect to spend hours trawling through electronics catelogues working out optimum capacitor case sizes for best electrical storage.

 

- Nigel

[panniertank]

Can I respectfully suggest that the first port of call should be the business who carried out the work for you.

That will be a tad difficult as the business is 6,000 miles away. I ve already paid well over the odds for this loco now, so spending even more on return post plus months more on the end of a 'que' is NOT an option. Besides, I am merely stating facts about DCC sound chipping as MY experience of it thus far.

[panniertank]

Hmm, strange one this...

I myself find that dcc chipped locos run really well

Far, far better than any dc powered locos...

with one exception in my case - a dcc sound and light fitted Hornby 08 shunter

It's a South West digital chip - NOT the Hornby version

 

That model really stutters and cuts out - more so when the sound is running

It seems to run better without the sound on - but still not as well as my Hornby and Bachmann non-sound decoder 08's....

Perhaps it's something do do with the additional amount of current needed?

Or some other related current drawn / motor type incompatibilty?

 

Incidentally, with sound running, the lights don't seem to make any difference,

whether they are on or off.....

 

As an assessment of dcc sound,

It really depends on the quality of the recording / and or decoder and speaker

I for one am completely sold on dcc sound

I just wouldn't be without it these days

 

Anyone with ideas as to how to solve the problem with my 08, or panniertanks' problems..

.. please let us know

 

Cheers

Thanks to you for the reply (and others) . Like I think I stated, I would have never spent good money on this venture had I known that DCC was going to be so problematical. Every time DCC was mentioned (prior to finding this site) the inference was, " It's the best thing since sliced bread " - but with all this occulted information on 'stay alive' capacitors, super surgically clean wheels and rails not to mention PERFECTLY laid rail ! (YEAH, RIGHT !) there are STILL questions over what type of chip, the competance of the fitter plus myriad other hurdles to overcome. Is it not possible to produce something that is not so prone to glitchy and temperamental operation or better yet, a more honest and down to earth appraisal of sound DCC ? Seems that you only find out the reality of this system after spending lots of cash - as if model railwaying wasn't expensive enough as it is !

[panniertank]

Maybe I missed something but the thread title is

 

As promised - my overall impressions of DCC sound

 

 

This thread has nothing to do with that !

I didn't realise I was talking about the olympics then

[PhilH]

 

I didn't realise I was talking about the olympics then

 

To be fair, I was expecting a discussion or comments about the sounds these things make.

[pheaton]

ive got 52 sound equipped loco's.....run as good as the track is clean....of course DCC requires clean conditions your sending binary commands to a reciever....if the track is dirty or there is poor continuity, these commands get delayed, or corrupted.

 

My track laying is far from perfect and none of my locos are equipped with stay alive capacitors...all a stay alive cap does is mask how dirty your track is...model railways have always relied on clean track and wheels.....with the advent of DCC the required level of cleanliness is negliable in my experience! i dont clean my layout any more often that i did with DC.

 

but like you if the pickups arnt set right then there will be interruptions in the sound, and as its sound you will notice it more than a loco not equipped with sound, check the pickups are clean, also Bachmann locos are commonly over oiled and if this finds its way to the wheels your going to get an issue, drop the wheels out give them a good clean in IPA or something and drop them back in, but bend the wipers carefully closer to the wheels.

 

I fitted a Heljan class 58 with sound refused to work properly until the wheels were cleaned of the grease Heljan apply to the inside of the bogies.

 

unless you have a duff decoder...which ok isnt impossble but unlikely the issue has nothing to do with DCC sound its the loco its installed into.

 

How come you went to dcc supplies when howes models appear to do a pannier based decoder with a fitting service?

 

your thread title is slightly misleading..........

[Allegheny1600]

Dear Panniertank,

I'm in no position to hunt back through maybe dozens of your posts to see how much experience of DCC you may have, for all I know, you may have years of experience.

I must say that it does sound as though you are speaking from a position of authority, though.

My qualifications in DCC/Sound;

Originally a Hornby Zero-1 user some 20+ years ago but didn't like it!

c.10 years ago I decided to give 'proper' DCC a try, did my research and purchased a Gaugemaster system from my local(ish) model shop. This was because I was aware that this was pretty high end technology (for me!) and if I had problems, I could take the system back to the shop. When I did have problems, the shop were very happy to help me.

Due to having a large model railway, I then bought a Roco Multi-maus system - highly recommended by a good friend but it wasn't quite what I was looking for. Also got used to using the Lenz system, too!

Finally I sold these and bought a secondhand NCE system from another friend.

All these work/ed to a degree but I find that a lot of problems are "between the chair and the keyboard" as computer literate friends would say!

After using straight digital locos for only a few months, I quickly went over to sound and have/had many proprietary sound fitted locos from virtually all UK, US and Euro manufacturers and have fitted a couple of ESU's myself, adequately.

Now, I'm no expert - even with this experience but I should say that there is sufficient advice above to make one consider ones position, where I you!

If I were to give my overall impressions of DCC sound, then - it would be;

DCC sound is improving all the time, some proprietary sound fitted locos are really good, some are rubbish (IMHO!) but almost all can be improved by fine tuning the cv's to ones personal taste. Always change cv 3 and 4 (in addition to the address, of course!) and definitely change cv63 to half volume or less!!!

Hope that helps,

John E.

[mcowgill]

Panniertank,

 

Where are you running this loco? From your other postings your layout is partly outdoors, if this is on your outdoor section I suspect you may be pushing the limits of DCC sound with the more challenging conditions for the limited number of pickups on a small tank engine. Larger locos (steam or diesel) with pickups on as many axles as possible are always going to be more reliable and suffer less from continuity problems. My Hornby 08 shunter's pickups took quite a bit of adjustment to work properly on DCC while my sound fitted Heljan class 47s just chug away regardless of the crud on the track (dirt runs scared from them, I'm sure it must be a uranium chassis casting to weigh so much!)

 

There have been plenty of excellent suggestions offered on this thread, all of them relate to making sure the power gets from the rails to the chip, that's the only possible cause of your problems, whether caused by the track, wheel contact, pickups or a combination.

 

Did you ever get your class 40 problems fixed? Lots of suggestions were given to you back then but we didn't hear if they had been taken on board and if they helped?

 

Martin

[Revolution Mike]

That will be a tad difficult as the business is 6,000 miles away. I ve already paid well over the odds for this loco now, so spending even more on return post plus months more on the end of a 'que' is NOT an option. Besides, I am merely stating facts about DCC sound chipping as MY experience of it thus far.

 

I think Andy's point was that you should be in contact with your supplier as the first remedy. Talk to them about the problems you have been having and see if they can suggest anything. If you have paid a lot for it then it is not unreasonable to expect them to help you out and if necessary to arrange for return costs to be paid along with prioritising repairs.

 

PS you are stating opinion (based on your experience) not facts - plenty of people have DCC sound in small locos without having the problems you are having. I must confess my first thoughts are pick ups (are they actually working ie have you checked each individual wheel) and is your track clean enough.

[brossard]

Other than the Hornby 08 I mentioned early on I haven't really had any serious problems with DCC sound. Also, in my experience, I would say that DCC is generally more tolerant to dirty track than DC.

 

John

[beast66606]

To be fair, I was expecting a discussion or comments about the sounds these things make.

 

Or at least a discussion which does not involve criticising one (1) install of a decoder (maybe justified but one swallow doesn't make a summer etc.) - the title would be better as "Installation/Running problems using a DCC sound decoder" - I've used DCC for a long, long time, being one of the first in the UK to make serious use of it, and never had the problems that others seem to have.

[Andy Y]

That will be a tad difficult as the business is 6,000 miles away. I ve already paid well over the odds for this loco now, so spending even more on return post plus months more on the end of a 'que' is NOT an option. Besides, I am merely stating facts about DCC sound chipping as MY experience of it thus far.

 

It seems a little odd to me to have used a supplier the other side of the world for a first time exploration into sound, even considering the remote possibility that a product may require return or assistance at some future point I think I'd have stuck with someone a little more accessible. However they will have seen the loco, we haven't, and may be better placed to advise you.

 

It's also unfair to condemn a supplier if you're not giving them the chance to assist.