tender Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Tender, With regards to the soldering of the valve gear, I see you've already done this now but I don't think I really suffered too much about soldering one item and disturbing the next. I would however promote the use of plenty of flux and the use of Carrs solder cream. For the latter I use 179 and because it comes in a syringe you can you use it very sparingly, in fact i tend to put some on a scrap bit of paper and apply even more spaingly using a cocktail stick. It comes with a flux in the paste although I do tend to add additional flux just to aid the flow. Because of the small volumes of solder being used you can be in and out with iron very quickly before heating up too much of the chassis, just watch the for the solder flowing on the desired part. I understand the advantage of using different grade solders, but in reality have found little need to swap to this approach. Cheers Paul Hi Paul, thanks for the insight on your soldering technique. I managed (in the absence of low temp solder) to solder these bits together by clamping them with a fine tipped pair of tweezers. Here's a picture of the completed inside motion. If I was doing it again I'd also machine off the boss on the front axleboxes to give the motion a bit more clearance. I've also started to add some of the detailing bits and pieces. The rear hornblock castings (which seem to be solid brass) are a bit heavy for my modest soldering iron so I' m thinking of glueing the centre hub with superglue and just soldering the spring hangers. This is the rear hornblock casting just placed in position. Is this an acceptable practice or should it all be soldered? Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Turned the soldering iron to full (400deg) and it managed to solder the brass hornblocks ok. Next is the white metal sandboxes, the instructions say secure these in position, no mention of solder. Is this a case of glueing or using a low temperature solder? Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Whitemetal fixing is a matter of personal preference... You could glue them, but soldering anywhere near the glue will dislodge them. You could solder with very low temperature (circa 70 degree) solder, but need to have care to not over heat. You could solder them with normal temperature solder, just be quick, heat coming in from the frames, and rely on casting being a large heat-sink - I've done this on numerous occaisions, but its got a certain amount of risk in it. If you're done with soldering in the vacinity, I'd glue them. If there is more soldering to do, consider adding later. I'd probably solder the sand pipe into the the sand box; apply heat to only the sand pipe and it should be possible to solder it to the box. Far less likely to fall off later. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I know people who put cylinder heads through a dish washer Some of us have put stirrup irons, spurs and bits in the dishwasher... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Whitemetal fixing is a matter of personal preference... You could glue them, but soldering anywhere near the glue will dislodge them. You could solder with very low temperature (circa 70 degree) solder, but need to have care to not over heat. You could solder them with normal temperature solder, just be quick, heat coming in from the frames, and rely on casting being a large heat-sink - I've done this on numerous occaisions, but its got a certain amount of risk in it. If you're done with soldering in the vacinity, I'd glue them. If there is more soldering to do, consider adding later. I'd probably solder the sand pipe into the the sand box; apply heat to only the sand pipe and it should be possible to solder it to the box. Far less likely to fall off later. - Nigel Carrs now do a 100 degree solder for w/m. It has the advantage that the brass or n/s that you are adding w/m bits to, doesn't need pretinning with "ordinary" solder. I have found it very useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 While I'm waiting for the low temp (100deg) solder to arrive for the sand boxes(white metal) I thought I'd give the body a test fitting. Had to fettle the boiler around the front splashes as suggested in the instructions but it seems to fit very well. Not sure what to do with the pipes running under the front and rear buffer beam, on the Dapol chassis they clipped into the chassis but there's nowhere for them to go on the high level chassis so I suspect there not as the prototype. The space under the boiler looks as though it could do with a bit of filling as well. All the weight on the Dapol model was in the chassis block so now this has been replaced with the high level chassis I' m wondering if it is going to be under weight. There seems to be plenty of room in the body for some lead so shouldn't be a problem if required. No mention of it in the instructions though. Must remember to order the Mainly Trains detailing kit as well. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Ray Put as much weight as possible in front of the rear drivers and a lesser amount behind them to help with adehesion on the driving wheels. I built a Rod Neep compensated chassis for one of these aeons ago, it took a lot fiddling to get the balance right and still haul or push a couple of etched brass auto coaches. Cheers SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will L Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Put as much weight as possible in front of the rear drivers and a lesser amount behind them to help with adehesion on the driving wheels. I built a Rod Neep compensated chassis for one of these aeons ago, it took a lot fiddling to get the balance right and still haul or push a couple of etched brass auto coaches. Were the weight needs to go depends on how the chassis is compensated. I'm not sure how Highlevel do it on the 14xx. This link takes you through the theory http://www.clag.org.....html#section15 but you can see this isn't necessarily simple or straightforward so you may want to discus this a bit further. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Were the weight needs to go depends on how the chassis is compensated. I'm not sure how Highlevel do it on the 14xx. This link takes you through the theory http://www.clag.org.....html#section15 but you can see this isn't necessarily simple or straightforward so you may want to discus this a bit further. Will Hi Will. Thanks for the link, i had a look at it late last night but it was all a bit gobbledygook. I'll try again when not so tired. Here's a picture of the compensation beams (sorry it's a bit blurred). They rest on the rear bogie wheel hornblock and the rear drive wheel hornblock. The front driver wheel has a central pivot on the axle. The pivot point of the beam is midway along the beam with about 17mm either side to the hornblock. The spacing between the front and rear drivers is about 29mm. I think a long hard read is required to work out where to put the weight. Looking at what's left on the fret there's not far to go now (mainly brakes) so i'm starting to think about finishes. What is the normal practice here. Hand painting, spray or one of the available 'blackening' agents? Or I could just leave it shiny nickel silver giving it that 'I made this' look. I must say I like the idea of the blackening stuff as I hate painting but I believe it's not as straightforward as it sounds. Has anybody used this technique for a chassis? Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi Ray, That is looking brilliant mate - well done! I am definitely gong to have a go at this one I think. I have done the Mainly Trains detail kit and it is well worth the money as it improves the look of the 14XX a huge amount. All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted October 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2012 I'd second that on the mainly trains bits, also worth a look at buffalos blog http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/87/entry-574-airfix-high-level-14xx48xx/ Showing a few other improvements worth making Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 247 Developments also have nice parts for a 14XX Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7APT7 Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Ooooh. We've got some of that in the cupboard. We've also got a dishwasher!!!!!!!!!!!! Hi Ray Love it... No arguing you two... I'm sure we all relate to it... Great thread mate, and photos to explain along the way... Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brassey Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi Ray, still following the developments here. I wondered whether your wheel press had arrived and at what stage do you intend to fit the wheels? I too have recently acquired such a device; all the images I have seen on this forum show it in use with the wheels off the chassis (hence my previous question). I guess if you use it with the wheels in place it will foul on the brake gear if that has been fitted. Are there any clues/suggestions in the instructions? Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi Ray, That is looking brilliant mate - well done! I am definitely gong to have a go at this one I think. I have done the Mainly Trains detail kit and it is well worth the money as it improves the look of the 14XX a huge amount. All the best, Castle Hi Castle. Many thanks for that, it's going together a lot easier than I had first thought and not too many burnt fingers. I must admit when I first saw the fret I wondered what I'd let myself in for. The bit that scares me most now is filing off the boiler front on the body shell to replace with the mainly trains detailed one. I don't think Southern42 will be too pleased if I mess that up. I'd second that on the mainly trains bits, also worth a look at buffalos blog http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/87/entry-574-airfix-high-level-14xx48xx/ Showing a few other improvements worth making Thanks for that link to buffalos blog, had a quick look and will revisit this evening when i have more time. 247 Developments also have nice parts for a 14XX Regards I did look at the 247 Developments site but could only find a chimney specific to the 14xx, no doubt experts on here will lead me to other bits. Hi Ray, still following the developments here. I wondered whether your wheel press had arrived and at what stage do you intend to fit the wheels? I too have recently acquired such a device; all the images I have seen on this forum show it in use with the wheels off the chassis (hence my previous question). I guess if you use it with the wheels in place it will foul on the brake gear if that has been fitted. Are there any clues/suggestions in the instructions? Peter Hi Peter. The wheel quartering press arrived yesterday. Looks very well engineered so should do the job although I have read on here that you can do it by eye but I'm not going to take that chance. I'm leaving putting the wheels on as late as possible (hope I don't regret this) as I don't want them becoming loose on the shaft by repeated pulling on and off. I've read on here somewhere this can be a problem with the Gibson wheelsets. The brake gear on the high level kit is removable so shouldn't (I hope) be a problem using the jig with the wheels in place. I'll be making the brake gear up tonight so will post some pictures when complete. I guess I'm going to have to test fit the wheels at this point to make sure the brake shoes don't foul. This will also be a good opportunity to give the chassis a push along some rail with the coupling rods fitted to check for any problems. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi Castle. Many thanks for that, it's going together a lot easier than I had first thought and not too many burnt fingers. I must admit when I first saw the fret I wondered what I'd let myself in for. The bit that scares me most now is filing off the boiler front on the body shell to replace with the mainly trains detailed one. I don't think Southern42 will be too pleased if I mess that up. Ray. Hi Ray, Actually the smokebox door is a separate moulding and a few careful slices (minding fingers!) arround the join was enough to liberate mine from the smokebox barrel. I replaced the smokebox bit with a circle of styrene cut with an Olfa P Cutter and then put the whitemetal casting on top. The chimney bit is very easy to do as well as the majority just pulls out as it is a metal casting and for the base I ground away the majority with a Dremell and sanding drum and then I finished it off with some diamond needle files. I recommend the purchase of some Gibson GWR whistles from M.T. as well as some Slaters Collet parallel style sprung buffers if yours doesn't have them fitted by Hornby (Mine didn't). Steady as she goes and you will be fine - goodness knows you have done well enough with the chassis! Keep the pictures coming as one of my young Didcot friends wants to do the Mainly Trains conversion and I wasn't on RMWEB when I did mine so no photos! All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will L Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 The front driver wheel has a central pivot on the axle. The pivot point of the beam is midway along the beam with about 17mm either side to the hornblock. The spacing between the front and rear drivers is about 29mm. I think a long hard read is required to work out where to put the weight. Yes this particular set up doesn't actually turn up in the relevant section of the link I gave you on calculating axle loads, but is shown as an option lower down. It is a better design than the classic 6 wheel compensation schemes discussed here http://www.clag.org....v.html#figure42 as it is possible to get good weight distribution without sacrificing loco stability. It does however mean that the weight carried by the trailing driving wheels and the carrying wheels will always be the same. For this set up I would suggest you aim for the loco Centre of Gravity (CofG) to fall at 2/3rds of the distance from the front axle pivot to the compensating beams pivot. This will give an equal weight distribution across all wheels (33.3% per axle) , and has the weight falling well to the broad end of the triangle formed by the three weight bearing points of the compensation. That should make sense if you followed the link above. This does put more weight on the carrying axle than perhaps you would go for in a perfect world, but equal loads on the other driving axles is the best solution in terms of adhesion, and the running qualities should be excellent. Alternately you could put the CofG central between the front axle and rear compensation beam pivot points. This would give 50% of the weight on the leading driving axle and 25% on both the trailing drivers and the carrying wheels. In theory this makes more of the loco weight available for adhesion but the unequal weights on the two driving axles will mean the loco is less able to make full use of it. Also with the weight further toward the apex of the support triangle the loco it is inherently less stable. In practical terms the CofG located somewhere between these two points should give satisfactory performance. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 ... I did look at the 247 Developments site but could only find a chimney specific to the 14xx, no doubt experts on here will lead me to other bits. ... I had the advantage of meeting '247 Developments' at a Railex and I just asked him to make up a kit of bits and bobs for me. He also does the smokebox door, number plates and shed plates. I didn't ask about the dome as I wasn't going to replace that. I cannot comment on 'Mainly Trains' as I haven't seen their products but the 247 stuff is really good, well worth buying. ATB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 As promised, here's a few pictures of the brake rod assembly. These are the made up brake hangers. The rods were a bit fiddly to put together but clamping them with some hair grips helped keeping them square while being soldered. The rods and brake hangers were then assembled on the chassis and soldered together. Pulling the retaining wires allows the whole assembly to be dropped from the chassis. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 For this set up I would suggest you aim for the loco Centre of Gravity (CofG) to fall at 2/3rds of the distance from the front axle pivot to the compensating beams pivot. This will give an equal weight distribution across all wheels (33.3% per axle) , and has the weight falling well to the broad end of the triangle formed by the three weight bearing points of the compensation. That should make sense if you followed the link above. This does put more weight on the carrying axle than perhaps you would go for in a perfect world, but equal loads on the other driving axles is the best solution in terms of adhesion, and the running qualities should be excellent. Thanks Will for the explanation. I was scratching my head for a bit trying to determine which one applied to the 14xx configuration. That puts the CofG about 2mm in front of the rear driver wheels if I've understood this correctly. Strangely enough that's about the same place as the Dapol model, but this has traction tyres to boot! Should I be looking to put the weight on the chassis or in the body, or doesn't it matter? Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will L Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Thanks Will for the explanation. I was scratching my head for a bit trying to determine which one applied to the 14xx configuration. That puts the CofG about 2mm in front of the rear driver wheels if I've understood this correctly. Strangely enough that's about the same place as the Dapol model, but this has traction tyres to boot! Should I be looking to put the weight on the chassis or in the body, or doesn't it matter? Doesn't matter. Obviously making the loco nice and heavy will tend to improve what it will pull, but then real lesson is that getting the CofG in the right place is more important than just jamming in as much weight as you can get in. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 Thanks Will for the explanation. I was scratching my head for a bit trying to determine which one applied to the 14xx configuration. That puts the CofG about 2mm in front of the rear driver wheels if I've understood this correctly. Strangely enough that's about the same place as the Dapol model, but this has traction tyres to boot! Should I be looking to put the weight on the chassis or in the body, or doesn't it matter? Ray. Will's suggestion of two-thirds of the distance from front axle to compensation pivot sounds right to me but I think your estimate is a little too far forward. A rough measurement on mine gives about 46mm between the axle and pivot, so the CoG should be just over 30mm behind the front axle. The driving axles are 29mm apart so the CoG should be just behind the rear driver axle. On mine, the side tanks are filled with lead sheet and there is some more in the boiler/smokebox, plus a little in the bunker. The CoG is actually about 1mm further back than the above, but it runs well enough and if I needed to adjust it there's still plenty of space for more lead in the boiler/smokebox. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 This "build your own, it's cheaper" option usually pops up. Dedicated RSUs use specially commissioned and industrial standard components, unlike the bits used in the do it yourself units, both for safety and relaibility. For example, the footswith in the LRM RSU is supplied by RSSComponents, and costs around £17. You can find a cheaper one at Maplins but it's not mains rated or you can build your own with footswitch, case, cable, grommet, etc. Likewise the cases, transformers, probe handles, etc. are specially produced. The American Beauty range (even more expensive) also uses dedicated parts. I have one of the prototype LRM units, made with a (no longer available) Maplin transformer kit, etc. What a job that was, winding 2.0mm dia enamelled copper wire for the outputs. I don't know anyone that succesfully produced their own without making/buying a suitably rated transformer. A 12v one from a battery charger isn't right for the job. Jol Hello, I apologies if this is off topic but could you expand on the above please, as I was considering building my own? trustytrev Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted October 27, 2012 Author Share Posted October 27, 2012 Will's suggestion of two-thirds of the distance from front axle to compensation pivot sounds right to me but I think your estimate is a little too far forward. A rough measurement on mine gives about 46mm between the axle and pivot, so the CoG should be just over 30mm behind the front axle. The driving axles are 29mm apart so the CoG should be just behind the rear driver axle. On mine, the side tanks are filled with lead sheet and there is some more in the boiler/smokebox, plus a little in the bunker. The CoG is actually about 1mm further back than the above, but it runs well enough and if I needed to adjust it there's still plenty of space for more lead in the boiler/smokebox. Nick Thanks for that information Nick, I'll have a remeasure and see if I come up with the same, I only did a quick guesstimate so I could be well off. In the meantime DISASTER. I dumped the chassis in a ultrasonic bath today and all (most) of the soldering has taken on a dull grey coating, looks a bit of a mess. It does clean off with a bit of a scrape but I'm never going to be able to get at all the nooks and crannies. Does anybody have any idea what's caused this? I'll try and get a picture up later on, it's a bit beyond my iPhone camera. Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will L Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 ...DISASTER. I dumped the chassis in a ultrasonic bath today and all (most) of the soldering has taken on a dull grey coating, If it's just stopped being shiny I wouldn't worry too much, Shiny solder will oxidise a bit in time if you leave it. I'd be more concerned if there is any depth to the layer. . What was in the water? Sounds that there may have been too much of what ever it was. Did a plain water run last improve things? I would always do that any way if I've has a cleaning agent in the water to make sure there is no residue left on the model. Actually us more anal modellers would have cleaned all the solder of surfaces so this doesn't happen. Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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