Hornby restaurant coaches?

[SRman]

One coach? The top image looks like S7943S and the lower one S7942S. Presumably just an effect of the blurring...

 

Anyway more interesting is that all the seats appear to be non-smoking. Not what I would have expected for the period.

 

It's just due to the blurring - the numbers are the same on both sides, although it wouldn't really matter because one can only ever see one side at a time (at least, when the coach isn't in its component parts!)

 

The notes on those links say it was used on Bournemouth to Newcastle services...

 

Does that mean SR Green stock was used throughout to Newcastle, how common was this ?

(Am showing my lack of age here).

 

There were usually dedicated sets of coaches for the inter-regional trains. For each route, there would be at least two sets, one originating from each of the regions. For this Bournemouth-Newcastle train, there would be a Southern set and an Eastern (or even North Eastern) set. 

 

In earlier times, the sets would be supplied by the Southern Railway and the LNER. There were other such trains one of which ran from the LMS/LMR from Birkenhead/Liverpool, where there were SR/BR(S) and LMS/LMR type sets. A good excuse to run LNER teak, or LMS/BR maroon stock on a Southern layout.

 

The majority of use for these trains would have been in Summer seasons.

 

While the coaches would work through the entire service, the locomotives would be changed at a suitable location; Oxford was one such location where such things occurred.

[nnich]

It's just due to the blurring - the numbers are the same on both sides, although it wouldn't really matter because one can only ever see one side at a time (at least, when the coach isn't in its component parts!)

 

 

 

 

There were usually dedicated sets of coaches for the inter-regional trains. For each route, there would be at least two sets, one originating from each of the regions. For this Bournemouth-Newcastle train, there would be a Southern set and an Eastern (or even North Eastern) set. 

In earlier times, the sets would be supplied by the Southern Railway and the LNER. There were other such trains one of which ran from the LMS/LMR from Birkenhead/Liverpool, where there were SR/BR(S) and LMS/LMR type sets. A good excuse to run LNER teak, or LMS/BR maroon stock on a Southern layout.

The majority of use for these trains would have been in Summer seasons.

While the coaches would work through the entire service, the locomotives would be changed at a suitable location; Oxford was one such location where such things occurred.

 

Interesting that this topic has come up as I've been meaning to ask the group if anyone knows the formation of both the SR and ER stock of the Bournemouth to York train in the mid fifties. Giving away my age I seem to remember seeing ER coaches - possibly Gresley running up the main line to Basingstoke behind sometimes a Lord Nelson 4-6-0. With the forthcoming Hornby model getting close this is a train I'd be interested in reproducing in model form using both SR Maunsell and ER sets. As an aside I remember in later years it would be MK1 stock as someone mentioned and could be powered by some quite 'foreign' locos

[Headstock]

Interesting that this topic has come up as I've been meaning to ask the group if anyone knows the formation of both the SR and ER stock of the Bournemouth to York train in the mid fifties. Giving away my age I seem to remember seeing ER coaches - possibly Gresley running up the main line to Basingstoke behind sometimes a Lord Nelson 4-6-0. With the forthcoming Hornby model getting close this is a train I'd be interested in reproducing in model form using both SR Maunsell and ER sets. As an aside I remember in later years it would be MK1 stock as someone mentioned and could be powered by some quite 'foreign' locos

 

 By the mid-fifties, both Eastern and Southern trains were pretty boring, a core of crimson and cream MK1's with only the Gresley/Maunsel catering providing any interest, though set 880 contained two crimson and cream Bulleid loose thirds. The Maunsel Restaurant car and open third combo only ran in set 459, they were displaced by the Buffet and composite diner in 1951. Set 459 was then replaced by MK1 set 880 from 1952. The Gresley catering was provided by a one-off unclassified and two third class anthracite electric Restaraunt cars. The anthracite cars were built especially for cross country workings as there were no charging points for the normal Gresley Restaurant cars on foreign lines.

[Oldddudders]

There were other such trains one of which ran from the LMS/LMR from Birkenhead/Liverpool, where there were SR/BR(S) and LMS/LMR type sets. A good excuse to run LNER teak, or LMS/BR maroon stock on a Southern layout.

The majority of use for these trains would have been in Summer seasons.

While the coaches would work through the entire service, the locomotives would be changed at a suitable location; Oxford was one such location where such things occurred.

I think you will find Birkenhead was very much GWR, rather than LMS! So, yes, daily trains from there via Snow Hill and Reading, Guildford and Redhill, where they would split with portions to Hastings via Eastbourne and Margate via Canterbury West. And there has been photographic evidence of such a train, with GWR power on a GWR set, dashing through Dorking Town, in a post by IrishSwissErnie of this parish some years back.

[coachmann]

The significant factor of the plain olive green dining car is, it is plain out of period for 1930-39. Remember, plain olive green on modern mainline passenger coaches came in right at the end of the 1930's and may not even have occurred except on one diner. Afterall, malachite became the new colour scheme when Bulleid took office.

 

We can only go off available information. Just because official photographs show certain newly built coaches from 1935 and 1936 in a simplified form of lining is no basis for assuming that it was carried over onto any of the Restaurant Cars. If it was when they became due for repaint, then the diners would still have retained some form of lining even if it was only along the waist. Hornbys' coach has no lining!  It represents one coach circa March 1940. 

 

I can understand why buyers will accept it as produced. They have no choice!

Edited August 15, 2018 by coachmann

[Guest]

All these complaints these days about lack of lining, I'm amazed people haven't got better things to moan and whine about. Still, I suppose it beats starting a riot over the curtains.....again!

 

- Mr Ant Epedant

Edited August 15, 2018 by Guest

[coachmann]

All these complaints these days about lack of lining, I'm amazed people haven't got better things to moan and whine about. Still, I suppose it beats starting a riot over the curtains.....again!

 

- Mr Ant Epedant

What an insulting post!  I give up.

[nnich]

 By the mid-fifties, both Eastern and Southern trains were pretty boring, a core of crimson and cream MK1's with only the Gresley/Maunsel catering providing any interest, though set 880 contained two crimson and cream Bulleid loose thirds. The Maunsel Restaurant car and open third combo only ran in set 459, they were displaced by the Buffet and composite diner in 1951. Set 459 was then replaced by MK1 set 880 from 1952. The Gresley catering was provided by a one-off unclassified and two third class anthracite electric Restaraunt cars. The anthracite cars were built especially for cross country workings as there were no charging points for the normal Gresley Restaurant cars on foreign lines.

 

Hmm    I wonder what train it was that I have fairly vivid memories of?  Not just on one occasion but quite regularly.   Mostly Lord Nelson hauled, but sometimes a King Arthur.  This would have been about 1955/56.  My memory is of Gresley coaches - quite a change from the normal Bulleid/Maunsell stock I saw on all the other trains.    What I'm looking for is a (fairly) prototypical excuse to run a rake of Gresley coaches with some appropriate destination boards behind a Lord Nelson - can anyone help?

Norm

[Cor-onGRT4]

All these complaints these days about lack of lining, I'm amazed people haven't got better things to moan and whine about. Still, I suppose it beats starting a riot over the curtains.....again!

 

- Mr Ant Epedant

I still waiting for my lined one or make it 4, o i don't need curtains, i have some from myself here on the shelf, so i shall not complain about the curtains

Edited August 15, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[GreenGiraffe22]

All these complaints these days about lack of lining, I'm amazed people haven't got better things to moan and whine about. Still, I suppose it beats starting a riot over the curtains.....again!

 

- Mr Ant Epedant

And god forbid anyone enjoys the product

 

D:

 

Right, I'm off to run my lovely plain green carriages behind my plain black locos

[sp1]

And god forbid anyone enjoys the product

 

D:

 

Right, I'm off to run my lovely plain green carriages behind my plain black locos

Go on, put some stripes on them - you know they go faster....

[trevor7598]

I think you will find Birkenhead was very much GWR, rather than LMS! So, yes, daily trains from there via Snow Hill and Reading, Guildford and Redhill, where they would split with portions to Hastings via Eastbourne and Margate via Canterbury West. And there has been photographic evidence of such a train, with GWR power on a GWR set, dashing through Dorking Town, in a post by IrishSwissErnie of this parish some years back.

 

This train was often good for rare Manor ( at Guildford ) Torquay Manor, and Ramsbury Manor were two I remember.

Also with SR stock this train was usually good for a Schools, and always used Platforms 6&7, Reading bound.

Even in 1964 this train was made up of Maunsell coaches, little did I know at the time that they were about the last

restriction 4 Maunsells left. One day a brand new Crompton was in charge of the train.

[Headstock]

Hmm    I wonder what train it was that I have fairly vivid memories of?  Not just on one occasion but quite regularly.   Mostly Lord Nelson hauled, but sometimes a King Arthur.  This would have been about 1955/56.  My memory is of Gresley coaches - quite a change from the normal Bulleid/Maunsell stock I saw on all the other trains.    What I'm looking for is a (fairly) prototypical excuse to run a rake of Gresley coaches with some appropriate destination boards behind a Lord Nelson - can anyone help?

Norm

 

The Newcastle York Bournemouth was an all year round, daily Restaurant car train. There were plenty of other interregional expresses that were seasonal summer Saturday trains that utilised older stock, such as the Pool Bradford or the Sheffield Bournemouth. At the height of the season, places like Oxford would witness as many as ten of these types of train in each direction working between the NER and SR. The sets would work North or South one weekend and then return home the following weekend. Catering was not usually provided and there would be one first class carriage or two composites and the rest of the formation would be thirds/seconds, none were seen to or reported as having carried roof mounted destination boards. The sets would be made up of eight carriages plus strengtheners marshaled outside the main body of the train.

 

The NE set of the Newcastle York Bournemouth employed Gresley carriages throughout up until 1950. Thompson carriages displaced all but the brake thirds and the catering carriages in that year. The train carried roof mounted destination boards but I am only aware of those used by the SR sets not those provided by the NE region.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Headstock

[Robin Brasher]

Thank you for the information about through workings from Bournemouth. At least one Thompson coach appeared at Swanage in the 1960s so perhaps it was taken from one of these through trains.

 

Coming back to the livery of the Southern Railway restaurant car I expect that Hornby chose an unlined olive green coach with a grey roof because Hornby could base their model on the illustration of that coach on plate 100 on page 93 of An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches by Mike King. This shows that all the door handles were brass, there was no first class sign and the words 'Restaurant Car' were to the left of centre in the restaurant compartment. By 1940 when it was overhauled most coaches would have been in malachite green livery so an unlined Maunsell green coach would probably not have matched the other coaches in a train.

 

A second reason for Hornby to chose an unlined Maunsell green restaurant car may be clever marketing. After I have waited 68 years for a southern restaurant car Hornby will know that I will buy it rather than wait for Hornby to produce a lined Maunsell green restaurant car with a white roof. Then I would buy the lined version as well when it came out. If Hornby produced a lined Maunsell green restaurant car first the company would know that I would buy it and not bother with an unlined version. 

 

I expect Hornby will produce it in malachite green, crimson and cream and BR green with a red line at the top in future if these coaches had a red line.

[robertcwp]

Not at Oxford but quite possibly heading for Oxford:

 

30863_WortingJct_30-7-60 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Steamport Southport]

I think you will find Birkenhead was very much GWR, rather than LMS! So, yes, daily trains from there via Snow Hill and Reading, Guildford and Redhill, where they would split with portions to Hastings via Eastbourne and Margate via Canterbury West. And there has been photographic evidence of such a train, with GWR power on a GWR set, dashing through Dorking Town, in a post by IrishSwissErnie of this parish some years back.

 

Birkenhead was definitely joint LMS(LNWR) and GWR.

 

I'm pretty sure there was LMS express trains to Liverpool/Birkenhead that split at Crewe and the Birkenhead portion then travelled on via Chester, with the rest of the train carrying on as normal.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/birkenhead_woodside/index.shtml

 

 

 

 

Jason

[robertcwp]

Birkenhead was definitely joint LMS(LNWR) and GWR.

 

I'm pretty sure there was LMS express trains to Liverpool/Birkenhead that split at Crewe and the Birkenhead portion then travelled on via Chester, with the rest of the train carrying on as normal.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/birkenhead_woodside/index.shtml

 

 

 

 

Jason

Here is a Birkenhead-Euston train from Summer 1934:

Birkenhead-Euston-Summer-1934 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[nnich]

Not at Oxford but quite possibly heading for Oxford:

 

30863_WortingJct_30-7-60 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Thank you very much robertcwp and headstock for this valuable information. Also relieved to know I wasn't just imagining the mix of Lord Nelson and Gresley stock. When the Hornby LN finally appears. ( just heard delayed to Jan 19 now). I will be ready to recreate a representative inter regional working

 

This forum is the best. Someone always knows the answer!! Sorry if I veered a little off topic but hey. The train did employ a Maunsell catering car on some occasions!!

 

Norm

[Headstock]

Thank you very much robertcwp and headstock for this valuable information. Also relieved to know I wasn't just imagining the mix of Lord Nelson and Gresley stock. When the Hornby LN finally appears. ( just heard delayed to Jan 19 now). I will be ready to recreate a representative inter regional working

 

This forum is the best. Someone always knows the answer!! Sorry if I veered a little off topic but hey. The train did employ a Maunsell catering car on some occasions!!

 

Norm

 

Morning Norm,

 

the image provided by Robert looks fairly typical, notice the brake carriages with their large van compartment, these are the 3 compartment brake thirds with plenty of space for holidaymakers luggage. Unfortunately, the RTR manufactures have never produced a Gresley brake third, a weird decision. The Thompson brake thirds provided by Bachmann would be a better choice than the totally inappropriate brake composites that Hornby produces. Train formations were marshaled around seating and luggage capacity, extra first class and a piddly little van area as in the Hornby brake composite would be a waste of space on such a train. Carriage number five looks like it's a Thompson, I would be pretty certain that it is this carriage that is providing the first class accommodation. So basically a bunch of thirds (Hornby Gresley), one first (Bachmann Thompson) and two brake thirds with big van compartments (Bachmann Thompson) will provide you with a neat little interegional holiday express.

 

P.S. insert second for third were appropriate.

 

Edited August 16, 2018 by Headstock

[trevor7598]

Morning Norm,

 

the image provided by Robert looks fairly typical, notice the brake carriages with their large van compartment, these are the 3 compartment brake thirds with plenty of space for holidaymakers luggage. Unfortunately, the RTR manufactures have never produced a Gresley brake third, a weird decision. The Thompson brake thirds provided by Bachmann would be a better choice than the totally inappropriate brake composites that Hornby produces. Train formations were marshaled around seating and luggage capacity, extra first class and a piddly little van area as in the Hornby brake composite would be a waste of space on such a train. Carriage number five looks like it's a Thompson, I would be pretty certain that it is this carriage that is providing the first class accommodation. So basically a bunch of thirds (Hornby Gresley), one first (Bachmann Thompson) and two brake thirds with big van compartments (Bachmann Thompson) will provide you with a neat little interegional holiday express.

 

P.S. insert second for third were appropriate.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. Nice to have a Gresley brake compo. but not at the expense of a brake third.

Another omission from Hornby's range was the composite with a ' honeymoon ' compartment.

And no open third. One could go on !.

Hornby have spoilt us with their Maunsell coach range ( I have about 40 ), so how about some

more typical Gresley coaches, as long as they get the profile and other details right of course.

Edited August 16, 2018 by trevor7598

[chris45lsw]

I couldn't agree more. Nice to have a Gresley brake compo. but not at the expense of a brake third.

Another omission from Hornby's range was the composite with a ' honeymoon ' compartment.

And no open third. One could go on !.

Hornby have spoilt us with their Maunsell coach range ( I have about 40 ), so how about some

more typical Gresley coaches, as long as they get the profile and other details right of course.

 

Morning Norm,

 

the image provided by Robert looks fairly typical, notice the brake carriages with their large van compartment, these are the 3 compartment brake thirds with plenty of space for holidaymakers luggage. Unfortunately, the RTR manufactures have never produced a Gresley brake third, a weird decision. The Thompson brake thirds provided by Bachmann would be a better choice than the totally inappropriate brake composites that Hornby produces. Train formations were marshaled around seating and luggage capacity, extra first class and a piddly little van area as in the Hornby brake composite would be a waste of space on such a train. Carriage number five looks like it's a Thompson, I would be pretty certain that it is this carriage that is providing the first class accommodation. So basically a bunch of thirds (Hornby Gresley), one first (Bachmann Thompson) and two brake thirds with big van compartments (Bachmann Thompson) will provide you with a neat little interegional holiday express.

 

P.S. insert second for third were appropriate.

 

Pedant mode!, it's actually a 4 compartment brake third/second.  And yes a BTK(4) or BTK(3) would be equally welcome, preferably both!  As would the CK(3.5/4), ie with the first class 'honeymoon' half compartment (coupe) mentioned by Trevor.  

 

Chris KT

[Headstock]

Pedant mode!, it's actually a 4 compartment brake third/second.  And yes a BTK(4) or BTK(3) would be equally welcome, preferably both!  As would the CK(3.5/4), ie with the first class 'honeymoon' half compartment (coupe) mentioned by Trevor.  

 

Chris KT

 

Yes, you are correct, it's a 4 compartment brake, serves me right for not checking the intermediate windows. The proper NER set of the Newcastle York Bournemouth was topped and tailed by 3 compartment brake thirds though until they were replaced by MK1 stock.

[coachmann]

The first all-metal Gresley I ever built was a 3-compartment built using Comet sides and ends and BSL roof. My bogies and underframe. Simpler to use a Hornby Gresley donor and they weigh a lot less.......

Edited August 16, 2018 by coachmann

[Headstock]

The first all-metal Gresley I ever built was a 3-compartment built using Comet sides and ends and BSL roof. My bogies and underframe. Simpler to use a Hornby Gresley donor and they weigh a lot less.......

WEB Gresley 3-comp.jpg

 

Very handsome,

 

can you imagine if Hornby had never offered a Maunsell brake third?

[robertcwp]

Very handsome,

 

can you imagine if Hornby had never offered a Maunsell brake third?

They never did the Stanier Period III composite either, in spite of there having been about ten times as many as there were firsts (which they did do) although the composite was a different length. By contrast, they did all six of the Hawksworth corridor day carriage types and both right and left-hand versions of the recent Collett brakes and composites. We have also had two Maunsell brake thirds, a composite, first, third, open third and now a restaurant kitchen, plus both high and low window variants where applicable.

 

I would not really count Hornby's Gresley stock as models either given how poor they are in shape.