Hornby restaurant coaches?

[Headstock]

They never did the Stanier Period III composite either, in spite of there having been about ten times as many as there were firsts (which they did do) although the composite was a different length. By contrast, they did all six of the Hawksworth corridor day carriage types and both right and left-hand versions of the recent Collett brakes and composites. We have also had two Maunsell brake thirds, a composite, first, third, open third and now a restaurant kitchen, plus both high and low window variants where applicable.

 

I would not really count Hornby's Gresley stock as models either given how poor they are in shape.

 

Evening Robert,

 

it's probably because the Hornby Gresleys are such poor representations of the prototype that they are reluctant to produce any more, perhaps one day they will retool them all from scratch. However, the original selection of prototypes was very poorly thought out. Without a composite or brake third, it is virtually impossible to assemble around 90% of formations. You can do a two set of BCK/TK and that's about it, you need a BTK for a three-set and a BTK and CK for a four or five set etc.

 

I would agree with regards the LM composites, it seems to me a lack of joined up thinking. Generally speaking, you can't go too far wrong with a BTK, CK, and TK if you are thinking of starting a range of carriages.

[robertcwp]

Evening Robert,

 

it's probably because the Hornby Gresleys are such poor representations of the prototype that they are reluctant to produce any more, perhaps one day they will retool them all from scratch. However, the original selection of prototypes was very poorly thought out. Without a composite or brake third, it is virtually impossible to assemble around 90% of formations. You can do a two set of BCK/TK and that's about it, you need a BTK for a three-set and a BTK and CK for a four or five set etc.

 

I would agree with regards the LM composites, it seems to me a lack of joined up thinking. Generally speaking, you can't go too far wrong with a BTK, CK, and TK if you are thinking of starting a range of carriages.

At least for the BR era London Midland trains there are also the Bachmann portholes, including a CK.

 

I would like to see some end-door Gresley stock in 00, say BTK, TK, CK, TO, RF. We might have a long wait though.

 

An LMS dining car to modern-day standards would also be nice as the old ex-Dapol one is rather long in the tooth.

[Legend]

Evening Robert,

it's probably because the Hornby Gresleys are such poor representations of the prototype that they are reluctant to produce any more, perhaps one day they will retool them all from scratch. However, the original selection of prototypes was very poorly thought out. Without a composite or brake third, it is virtually impossible to assemble around 90% of formations. You can do a two set of BCK/TK and that's about it, you need a BTK for a three-set and a BTK and CK for a four or five set etc.

I would agree with regards the LM composites, it seems to me a lack of joined up thinking. Generally speaking, you can't go too far wrong with a BTK, CK, and TK if you are thinking of starting a range of carriages.

You do wonder who suggested the range of coaches to be modelled at the time. Probably didn’t know anything about it and went along the lines of we need a brake, a second and a first. I think with the involvement of some modellers now, this wouldn’t happen , but it’s a missed opportunity. It’s a shame because they could really do with revisiting the Staniers and Gresleys

[TheSignalEngineer]

You do wonder who suggested the range of coaches to be modelled at the time. Probably didn’t know anything about it and went along the lines of we need a brake, a second and a first. I think with the involvement of some modellers now, this wouldn’t happen , but it’s a missed opportunity. It’s a shame because they could really do with revisiting the Staniers and Gresleys

There's also a sad lack of open stock, particularly LMS which had several thousand. The only one so far was the Replica Railways D1915 which was one of the later ones. Besides that there haven't been any RTR Period 1 or 2 stock since the Mainline / Replica / Bachmann panelled 57' stock.

[Headstock]

At least for the BR era London Midland trains there are also the Bachmann portholes, including a CK.

 

I would like to see some end-door Gresley stock in 00, say BTK, TK, CK, TO, RF. We might have a long wait though.

 

An LMS dining car to modern-day standards would also be nice as the old ex-Dapol one is rather long in the tooth.

 

Once you have a basic 4 set of BTK/CK/TK/BTK, you have a nice sized prototypical train for a lot of smaller layouts. To that you can add RF and TO, then you suddenly have a six carriage Restaurant car express. If you want to make it bigger, add an extra CK and TK, it's simple stuff. For a posher train, bring in a BCK at the first class end, replacing one of the BTK's. Add in a full first next to the Restaurant car in preference to a second CK and Bobs your uncle. Then you could add a portion to the other end, TK and BCK, if you want a longer train just increase the number of TK's.

 

You are never going to get the Royal Scot circa 1935 in RTR form. However, a bit of joined-up thinking produces a range that provides a compact solution for some, yet expandable for those with more space.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Headstock

[Dunsignalling]

Evening Robert,

 

it's probably because the Hornby Gresleys are such poor representations of the prototype that they are reluctant to produce any more, perhaps one day they will retool them all from scratch. However, the original selection of prototypes was very poorly thought out. Without a composite or brake third, it is virtually impossible to assemble around 90% of formations. You can do a two set of BCK/TK and that's about it, you need a BTK for a three-set and a BTK and CK for a four or five set etc.

 

I would agree with regards the LM composites, it seems to me a lack of joined up thinking. Generally speaking, you can't go too far wrong with a BTK, CK, and TK if you are thinking of starting a range of carriages.

The lack of CKs of both LMS and LNER origin is presumably due to the need to tool different underframes from all other types; 60' instead of 57' and 59' vice 61'6" respectively. 

 

I'd agree wholeheartedly that BTK, TK and CK should be the essential roots of any coach range, but it may be the case that Hornby's pricing structure for coaches doesn't permit it, whilst Bachmann's generally higher one evidently does.

 

Hornby's original choices of Gresley stock was somewhat eccentric and further stymied by the unavoidably incorrect proportions that resulted from making the underframes too wide. Best to scrap the lot and start afresh, preferably with end-vestibule varieties this time, IMHO.

 

However, given that Bachmann have covered two frame lengths under both their Thompsons and Stanier "Portholes", maybe it's them we should be lobbying for better Gresleys.

 

Fortunately (for me) SR underframes were uniform in length, leading to much more comprehensive coverage by Hornby, even extending (to my surprise and delight) to the LSWR rebuilds that used the same underpinnings. Full marks for maximum utilisation of assets, Hornby.

 

John

Edited August 16, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[phil-b259]

Probably didn’t know anything about it and went along the lines of we need a brake, a second and a first.

Far more likely that the all first was substituted when it was realised the composite featured a longer under frame than the brake BTK and TK coaches.

 

As others have said, people must not overlook the fact all Maunsell stock featured underframes of exactly the same length regardless of what type of passenger accomadation was plonked on top. This makes it far more viable for a model manufacturer to bring out a larger range of models compared to the LMS Stanier and LNER Greasly stock.

[Headstock]

The lack of CKs of both LMS and LNER origin is presumably due to the need to tool different underframes from all other types; 60' instead of 57' and 59' vice 61'6" respectively. 

 

I'd agree wholeheartedly that BTK, TK and CK should be the essential roots of any coach range, but it may be the case that Hornby's pricing structure for coaches doesn't permit it, whilst Bachmann's generally higher one evidently does.

 

Hornby's original choices of Gresley stock was somewhat eccentric and further stymied by the unavoidably incorrect proportions that resulted from making the underframes too wide. Best to scrap the lot and start afresh, preferably with end-vestibule varieties this time, IMHO.

 

However, given that Bachmann have covered two frame lengths under both their Thompsons and Stanier "Portholes", maybe it's them we should be lobbying for better Gresleys.

 

Fortunately (for me) SR underframes were uniform in length, leading to much more comprehensive coverage by Hornby, even extending (to my surprise and delight) to the LSWR rebuilds that used the same underpinnings. Full marks for maximum utilisation of assets, Hornby.

 

John

 

Evening John,

 

when the Hornby brought out their Gresleys, such thinking had never occurred to them. Just bung out a bunch of carriages and the punters will buy them. Times have changed quite a bit since then.

 

I'm not as sold on end vestibule Gresley carriages as some, certainly not at the expense of the compartment door stock. The end vestibule stock was always in a minority and the compartment door stock continued to be built after their introduction. The compartment door types are actually of more use to a wider range of applications and modelers. You would never see a 2,3,4 or 5 set as described above of purely end vestibule stock even after cascading in later years. They were very much big train East coast mainline stock.

 

With regard to the Gresley CK, it shares the sane underframe as the TK, BCK, FK etc.

 

LM stock, I don't know much about costing for Hornby, they keep it secret, so everybody is just guessing. I would be thinking, educate your punters about what they need and they will buy five times the amount of composites as firsts and you will make more dosh.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Headstock

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

LM stock, I don't know much about costing for Hornby, they keep it secret, so everybody is just guessing. I would be thinking, educate your punters about what they need and they will buy five times the amount of composites as firsts and you will make more dosh.

IIRC all of the LMS Composites after the 'All-Door' types were built on 60' underframes which Hornby haven't produced, so little chance of them doing one.

[TheSignalEngineer]

LM stock, I don't know much about costing for Hornby, they keep it secret, so everybody is just guessing. I would be thinking, educate your punters about what they need and they will buy five times the amount of composites as firsts and you will make more dosh.

 

IIRC all of the LMS Composites after the 'All-Door' types were built on 60' underframes which Hornby haven't produced, so little chance of them doing one.

Having said that, there may be some synergies in producing a D1948 57' Restaurant/Buffet Car of 1936. (Please Hornby or Bachmann, before I have to get some Comet sides.)

[Headstock]

IIRC all of the LMS Composites after the 'All-Door' types were built on 60' underframes which Hornby haven't produced, so little chance of them doing one.

 

Why not do a period 1 composite, BTK, TK?

[coachmann]

I rather fancied one of these Maunsell Dining Cars, which i was going to respray BR locos-hauled stock green. But it seems the pesky diner was detached along with other coaches at Wolverhampton and so would never have been seen up north. A caption in 'Rail to North Wales' states " No.1022 County of Northampton heads away from Wrexham on 8th August 1958 with the 14.35 Birkenhead-Paddington train. The loco will be changed and the extra coaches, including the restaurant car, attached at Wolverhampton. 

Edited August 16, 2018 by coachmann

[TheSignalEngineer]

Why not do a period 1 composite, BTK, TK?

If you only view it from one side on the layout you could 'declassify' a Bachmann CK as the corridor side was basically identical to the TK. The compartment side of a TK would be a serious amount of butchery to produce from two CKs.

[phil-b259]

Why not do a period 1 composite, BTK, TK?

Because all that panneling means a more complicated set of tooling compared to the flush sided period 3 coaches - which will need to be reflected in the price.

 

With Bachmann generally going for later big 4 designs (the portholes, Thompson and Bulleid stock) it seems unlikely they would go down the route of producing period 1 stuff. Equally as Hornby already have some period 3 LMS stock, it seems unlikely they would also wish to do period 1 stock too.

[Headstock]

Because all that panneling means a more complicated set of tooling compared to the flush sided period 3 coaches - which will need to be reflected in the price.

 

With Bachmann generally going for later big 4 designs (the portholes, Thompson and Bulleid stock) it seems unlikely they would go down the route of producing period 1 stuff. Equally as Hornby already have some period 3 LMS stock, it seems unlikely they would also wish to do period 1 stock too.

 

I admit to not being super duper up on LMS carriages. Coach will probably pick me up on this one, but doesn't Hornby already have the bogies and underframes? Probably some little detail involving rivets vs welding will undermine my thinking on this one.

[coachmann]

If you only view it from one side on the layout you could 'declassify' a Bachmann CK as the corridor side was basically identical to the TK. The compartment side of a TK would be a serious amount of butchery to produce from two CKs.

Below are three LMS 57' Period I coaches not quite sharing identical corridor sides....

 

Identical corridor sde for all-third....

 

The compo lost a window because of a corridor partition between first and third....

 

The Period I compo came in three varieties, but that would be a digression....

[TheSignalEngineer]

I rather fancied one of these Maunsell Dining Cars, which i was going to respray BR locos-hauled stock green. But it seems the pesky diner was detached along with other coaches at Wolverhampton and so would never have been seen up north. A caption in 'Rail to North Wales' states " No.1022 County of Northampton heads away from Wrexham on 8th August 1958 with the 14.35 Birkenhead-Paddington train. The loco will be changed and the extra coaches, including the restaurant car, attached at Wolverhampton. 

It was only the Paddingtons whose catering vehicles were normally taken off at Wolverhampton.

 

In the 1950s the Buffet cars on the Bournemouth and Margate trains worked through to Birkenhead. 

For example in 1957 the Bournemouth - Birkenhead had a 6-Buffet set BSK/FK/RKB/SO/SO/BSK throughout plus BCK/BSK/SK detached at Chester.

The set provided by the WR had in their terms Brake Compo/ Van Second/ Second from Chester to Bournemouth,

Van Second/ Second/ Open Second/ Cafeteria/ First/ Van Second throughout,

The southbound working also had Second, Brake Compo Birkenhead to Cardiff detached at Shrewsbury.

 

The train to the south east had 3 coaches from Chester to Hastings, 4 coaches including buffet from Birkenhead to Margate and 2 coaches from Birkenhead to Ramsgate.

[chris45lsw]

IIRC all of the LMS Composites after the 'All-Door' types were built on 60' underframes which Hornby haven't produced, so little chance of them doing one.

I know it needs a bit of work but Dapol, of course, do a 60ft PIII CK.

 

Chris KT

[coachmann]

It was only the Paddingtons whose catering vehicles were normally taken off at Wolverhampton.

 

In the 1950s the Buffet cars on the Bournemouth and Margate trains worked through to Birkenhead. 

For example in 1957 the Bournemouth - Birkenhead had a 6-Buffet set BSK/FK/RKB/SO/SO/BSK throughout plus BCK/BSK/SK detached at Chester.

The set provided by the WR had in their terms Brake Compo/ Van Second/ Second from Chester to Bournemouth,

Van Second/ Second/ Open Second/ Cafeteria/ First/ Van Second throughout,

The southbound working also had Second, Brake Compo Birkenhead to Cardiff detached at Shrewsbury.

 

The train to the south east had 3 coaches from Chester to Hastings, 4 coaches including buffet from Birkenhead to Margate and 2 coaches from Birkenhead to Ramsgate.

Thank you very much for this. You obviously know your stuff. I have been trying to make sense of photos taken at the Chester end of the route. In other words, what would have been seen passing Ruabon.

[robertcwp]

This working is unidentified but is likely to be a through train from Birkenhead or similar to the Southern. Fifth carriage is a Maunsell restaurant car:

 

5012_WolvercoteJct_1953 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[robertcwp]

Here are a couple of pages from the Summer 1957 WR Through Coach Programme showing the through trains from Birkenhead to the SR:

 

WR-1957-summer-0159 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

WR-1957-summer-0161 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Steamport Southport]

Strangely enough the one thing I don't need is LMS or GWR catering vehicles or sleeping cars.

 

You can sometimes find unmade Comet kits at exhibitions going for very reasonable prices, but it's generally the "special" vehicles rather than the ordinary stock. So I filled my boots and now have enough. Probably too many.

 

I just need to build them....

 

 

 

Jason 

[cessna152towser]

I rather fancied one of these Maunsell Dining Cars, which i was going to respray BR locos-hauled stock green. But it seems the pesky diner was detached along with other coaches at Wolverhampton and so would never have been seen up north. A caption in 'Rail to North Wales' states " No.1022 County of Northampton heads away from Wrexham on 8th August 1958 with the 14.35 Birkenhead-Paddington train. The loco will be changed and the extra coaches, including the restaurant car, attached at Wolverhampton. 

Such a nice model, utterly irresistible, needed to use modellers' licence to justify this purchase as I don't think these Maunsell diners ever ran in Scotland (though a few Bulleid coaches found their way into Scottish Regions stock, complete with Sc prefix and S suffix).    On the BR green Maunsell which I have now received, those corridor end covers detached easily with only light finger pressure on one corner and are now safely inside the little plastic bag within the coach box in case I need them again.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Here are a couple of pages from the Summer 1957 WR Through Coach Programme showing the through trains from Birkenhead to the SR:

 

WR-1957-summer-0159 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

WR-1957-summer-0161 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Formations for the SR stock where SR/WR used on alternate days are shown in the northbound workings.

Edited August 18, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[robertcwp]

Formations for the SR stock where SR/WR used on alternate days are shown in the northbound workings.

Indeed they are.

 

WR-1957-summer-0163 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

WR-1957-summer-0164 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr