The future of loco kit building

[Will L]

There is also an extended discussion of 0-4-4T problems in MRJ No.3.

 

Continued in MRJ 4. Fascinating, though I don't think Metropolitan would be amused. The consensus at the times seems to be that compensation had proved its ascendancy over springing. MRJ 4 was published in 1985.

 

To retain relevance to this tread I think its worth pointing out there that in MRJ 4 there is an article by one Don Roland trying to foresee the next 25 years of modelling (i,e, up to 2010). It too is worth a look. He wasn't sure that model railways would survive dieselisation. I'm going to pull his leg on this one next time I see him.

 

Will

[Metropolitan]

strange I fixed two locos today which were shorting/missing their contacts due to excessive play -and fouls on splashers - and I was doing a weathering demo(!)

 

 

 

So did you remove what you call the excessive sideplay by washering it out or simply renew or bend out the pickups to resolve the issue? I know what I would have done. Araldite to stop the shorting on the splashers and washering only to prevent contact with the splashers whilst retaining as much sideplay as possible?

[Mrkirtley800]

I remember that article well. Not that I am old enough....... I just like looking through old magazines.

 

That one will predate the Denny loco by about 10 years. As Peter had all the issues of Railway Modeller, he would have been aware of it when he built his.

 

The LD&ECR was one of his last loco builds and is only about 40 years old. I can't remember and don't have easy access to a copy now but does the driving wheel bogie on the Horton loco twist from side to side as well as pivot fore and aft?

 

I wasn't aware of the Mallard models D16 construction details and Malcolm hadn't seen one either. He always felt quite proud of having "invented" the arrangement but it just goes to show that there is nothing much in model railways that wasn't done first many years ago!

 

Thanks for reminding me of that one,

 

Tony

 

Do you mean something like this Tony? This was scratchbuilt in about 1970, and given to Coachman Larry in about 1971

With a pic of the right way up. The idea taken from the article in the 'Modeller', which was for an LNER G5.

Derek

[benachie]

t-b-g(Tony),

"does the driving wheel bogie on the Horton loco twist from side to side as well as pivot fore and aft?"

No, just fore and aft. The loco was a Stanier 0-4-4T.

Alan

[Horsetan]

Incidentally another well known personality has revealed himself to be into building loco kits. It's Lord Winston. Although is are a Japanese make of live steam. I suppose being a qualified neurosurgeon would be a help.

 

http://www.ft.com/cm...144feabdc0.html

 

Quote from article: "The Winston Churchill, which is powered by alcohol....."

 

Just like the man himself.

[ArthurK]

So we won't be seeing an RTR Raven Atlantic or R at some time in the near future as the real things had wheels which did foul the splashers on occasion!

 

Sorry: there have already been two R 4-4-0s that from DJH and that from Chivers. I built the latter in P4 (Yes I did have to take material from the inside of the splashers) and it a very good runner on simple beams for the driving wheels and a fully compensated bogie. About 20% of loco weight rides on that bogie (no springing). Shorting is not a problem. And don't forget that the flanges on an OO model are well inside of the splashers so it should not be a problem.

 

The biggest problem is not the splashers it is the front frames. The bogie wheels are four feet in diameter. Even in P4 mine were a bit smaller No frame cutout is going to work for that. The loco had tapered front frames but a model needs rather more than the prototype.

 

There is also the Raven pacific from DJH. I believe that there was one from Jameson long ago.

 

As for a third R - watch this space.

[JeffP]

Well, after this weekend, I have it on VERY good authority that "kit-building is dying".

 

This has come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a major retailer of kits whose market has shrunk massively over the last few years. (From selling 30 kits a weekend at Telford, to selling TWO, and none on the sunday).

 

He puts it down to the lack of enough people with the skills to build a decent kit into a decent model.

 

I did mention my trying to buy TWO kits off DJH, total value of over £1800, including wheels, motor and gears, at telford on the Sunday, if they would give me even 5% discount........they refused. I didn't buy either, and still have not done so. The gent I spoke to on Saturday told me I had no idea about DJH's profit margins...and so I don't, but I DO feel theirs are some of the, shall we say, less modestly priced kits.

 

I did ask if he thought that the advent of more than adequate RTR in all scales was making people NOT build kits any more, but he told me I had it back to front, and the advent of more and better RTR models is to fill the gap left by the downturn in kits.

 

So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.

[mikemeg]

Well, after this weekend, I have it on VERY good authority that "kit-building is dying".

 

This has come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a major retailer of kits whose market has shrunk massively over the last few years. (From selling 30 kits a weekend at Telford, to selling TWO, and none on the sunday).

 

He puts it down to the lack of enough people with the skills to build a decent kit into a decent model.

 

I did mention my trying to buy TWO kits off DJH, total value of over £1800, including wheels, motor and gears, at telford on the Sunday, if they would give me even 5% discount........they refused. I didn't buy either, and still have not done so. The gent I spoke to on Saturday told me I had no idea about DJH's profit margins...and so I don't, but I DO feel theirs are some of the, shall we say, less modestly priced kits.

 

I did ask if he thought that the advent of more than adequate RTR in all scales was making people NOT build kits any more, but he told me I had it back to front, and the advent of more and better RTR models is to fill the gap left by the downturn in kits.

 

So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.

 

Somewhat cynically, one could say that everything which requires the acquisition of skill, technique and application is dying. We live in a society of instant gratification, where everything must be available now. Look at some of the drawing/painting applications on Apple and other tablet, lap-top and desktop systems. Anyone can do it, with no training, no skill and precious little determination.

 

But there are still a few of us who are prepared to do the 'hard yards' to learn the skills, hone the techniques and devote the application and, because of that, we'll continue to build kits.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....and the pendulum swings Mike. History is full of examples....just give it a few years.

 

Dave

[James]

That was in MRJ 4 and 6. I think he has built a new chassis for it since then.

 

It's mentioned in MRJ 58 - my thrid copy is steadily being worn out as it's read again and again! A later article metnions I think, about the V2 having had a 'heavy general'!

[t-b-g]

Do you mean something like this Tony? This was scratchbuilt in about 1970, and given to Coachman Larry in about 1971

With a pic of the right way up. The idea taken from the article in the 'Modeller', which was for an LNER G5.

Derek

 

Lovely loco Derek! It is a bit hard to tell from the photo exactly which bit pivots where but that looks very like the same sort of arrangement. Next time I venture to the shed, possibly this evening or maybe tomorrow, I will get the camera under the Denny loco and post something on the grounds that a picture is worth a thousand etc.

 

Tony

[James]

if they would give me even 5% discount

 

And why should they?

 

You've just said the market is contracting so maybe a discount just isn't viable?

 

One further thing which struck me is that the second hand kit market seems quite healthy if eBay is anything to go by - maybe this has had an impact on new kits? Some of those who may be more experienced will be aware that earlier kits from fresher moulds may represent a better prospect than newer kits. And previously second hand kits were really only seen at shows but a simple search on eBay brings up many, many examples.

 

Maybe we have to accept that the hobby will change - I bet some gentlemen modellers in thirties would be up in arms at the thought of having models so easily contructed from kits when they had build and create from scratch.

 

All hobbies change - not so long ago modifying cars was very much men-in-sheds but not much tuning is achieved with remaps. I know of some older cars where power could be increased by bending a turbo actuator arm with a metal bar! But now it's a much more 'techy' operation. The end result is more or less the same, but it has been met with a negative reaction in parts. 'Built-not-Bought' stickers can be seen on many modified cars which reflects this sentiment and is an inidcation of people proud to have done work themselves - just as many of us will continue to build and enjoy creating our own locos.

[Ravenser]

Well, after this weekend, I have it on VERY good authority that "kit-building is dying".

 

This has come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a major retailer of kits whose market has shrunk massively over the last few years. (From selling 30 kits a weekend at Telford, to selling TWO, and none on the sunday).

 

He puts it down to the lack of enough people with the skills to build a decent kit into a decent model.

 

I did mention my trying to buy TWO kits off DJH, total value of over £1800, including wheels, motor and gears, at telford on the Sunday, if they would give me even 5% discount........they refused. I didn't buy either, and still have not done so. The gent I spoke to on Saturday told me I had no idea about DJH's profit margins...and so I don't, but I DO feel theirs are some of the, shall we say, less modestly priced kits.

 

I did ask if he thought that the advent of more than adequate RTR in all scales was making people NOT build kits any more, but he told me I had it back to front, and the advent of more and better RTR models is to fill the gap left by the downturn in kits.

 

So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.

 

I suspect that the key factor in this is sheer cost in the present economic climate. Very few of us can splash out almost 4 figures on a single loco kit: Gauge O has always been expensive, and now times are hard I can understand why the purveyors of expensive kits are feeling the pinch. (In 4mm , steam loco kits are still in the £150-£200 bracket, new with everything, all in) Skills do not evaporate in a couple of years - and no trader is going to say to a punter "People just can't afford my stuff any more". Some may be doing what I'm consciously doing - not buying anything new and focusing on the pile of stuff in the cupboard that needs building.

 

In 4mm it is certainly not the case that RTR has sprung up to fill the gaps in kits - quite the opposite, and it is noticeable that the loco kits going cheap second hand are those for prototypes now available RTR (I saw one stand at Warley where a 4F kit for £25 sat next to a K's MR Spinner for £90: availablity of Bachmann and Hornby 3Fs and 4Fs at modest prices will be driving the pricing in that case) . I suspect people have cleared out their unbuilt kits with a view to buying the new RTR - "I've had it 10-15 years and still not built it, so I'm never going to now,..."

 

It used to be the case that if you wanted any kind of balanced or authentic stud in 4mm , kitbuilt locos were essential. Now the case is not so clear cut - we've just had a third LNER 2-8-0 announced RTR in OO. Where is the market for LNER heavy goods loco kits now?

 

In terms of the size of the hobby , which was raised earlier , my rough approximation , based on trying to add up all the magazine circulations (incl sensible estimates) and allow for duplication was around 100,000 , give or take 10,000 and probably on the lower side not the higher. The Railway Modeller sells about 45,000 I believe and has the highest circulation, although in the 1980s it sold 100,000. This defines those active in the hobby as those buying a magazine regularly or going to shows - the biggest 2 (Warley and Model Rail Scotland have gates up towards 20,000)

 

The membership of the EMGS used to be around 3000: there will be some overlap with the Scalefour Society. All in all I'd expect there to be at least 5000 to be in 4mm finescale and perhaps 8000 to 10,000 working in all non-commercial gauges . That leaves 90% of the hobby outside finescale . Obviously a large slice of that 90% never build kits of any kind. That sector could be anywhere between a third and two thirds of the hobby (I'd refine the figure a little and say 40-60% of the hobby) . But even taking the maximum estimates for both finescale in non-commercial gauges and pure RTR that leaves a large sector - perhaps 30% of the hobby - who are what I'd describe as craft modellers working in commercial gauges . In other words people who make things. This sector is probably 3 times as big as finescale by headcount - even if the finescale modeller buys more kits per head, it is not likely that the finescale market is as much as 50% of the total kit market, even if the share for some ranges targetted exclusively at the finescale market is higher.

 

I do not believe that the future of loco kit building lies in a circling of the PO wagons and a retreat into an exclusive focus on the high end steam finescale market, with the Approved Methods of etched brass and compensation being mandatory. Quite apart from anything else , where is the future of steam age finescale going to come from , if there is nothing left in the middle ground between a Martin Finney kit and Messrs Hornby and Bachmann? The backbone of steam era finescale is a cohort of modellers who came into the finescale movement in the 70s and 80s. They are now getting elderly: it's striking how many letter writers in MRJ declare personal experience of pre-nationalisation steam , and a lot of articles and editorials in the last 5 years of MRJ have had a distinctly autumnal and elegiac note. Twenty years ago those modellers modelling post-steam eras in 4mm finescale left to set up their own society , in very large part because they felt that EMGS and S4S were not interested in them or their needs, and the finescale movement let them go with great complacency. For better or worse D+E finescale is now a very different game from the conventional steam era finescale. This substantially reduces the scope for a "rising generation". And where are those who may become steam finescale modellers in the future going to get their apprenticeship , in the way current finescale modellers did before they went into finescale?

 

There is a worrying atmosphere of "Let's enjoy it while it lasts, boys" about high end steam finescale at present, and it is difficult to see how a retreat wholly into the comfort zone of "MRJ-world" offers a strong long term future for kitbuilding and kit manufacturers. The much larger sector of craft modellers in commercial guages must also be targetted and served by the trade . A future for loco kit building must rest on 2 pillars not one

[Metropolitan]

I suspect that the key factor in this is sheer cost in the present economic climate. [cont]

 

You define "Finescale" as being 'other than RTR'. If anything in 4mm is Finescale it is modern RTR. I do not think that "finescale" has any meaning in the context of locomotive kitbuilding. Building a kit loco is not a matter of competing with RTR in terms of detail or anything else. It is about enjoying modelling.

[JeffP]

One would think so.

As a lad, I bought, and built Airfix kits.

 

I could have bought a model of a Spitfire, for example, but preferred to make my own from a kit. Part of the pleasure was in the build.

 

But yes, economics plays a large part........hence my looking for a discount on two models at the same time, including wheels and gears. Not realistic? who knows, but two sales lost. If DJH truly make less than £90 profit on two large kits, each with wheels, pickups, couplings and motor-gearbox assemblies, then perhaps they are in the wrong business?

[Ravenser]

You define "Finescale" as being 'other than RTR'. If anything in 4mm is Finescale it is modern RTR. I do not think that "finescale" has any meaning in the context of locomotive kitbuilding. Building a kit loco is not a matter of competing with RTR in terms of detail or anything else. It is about enjoying modelling.

 

In a 4mm context , I very definitely wouldn't define "finescale" as "other than RTR".

 

However I have a very strong sense that quite a few people who have posted in this thread , from a P4 perspective, are tacitly and instinctively defining P4/EM as "finescale" - and everything else as "RTR - just opening blue and red boxes" . Take this exchange a couple of pages back:

 

Metropolitan:

the total membership of the Scalefour Society is just 1800 people.

 

billbedford

What is your evidence that more than 1800 people build 4mm kits?

 

I do take billbedford to be suggesting there that no-one outside S4S actually makes anything

.

From the perspective of "MRJ-world" "finescale" = "kits" , "kits = finescale" . Until recently MRJ didn't even acknowledge RTR , on the basis that it was irrelevant to its readers....

 

Back in the rest of the world there are plenty of modellers like you and me who aren't in P4 or EM and make things . This is at least as important a group for kitbuilding as the finescale movement , but it is a group that people from a finescale perspective don't necessarily wish to accept exists, and which they object kits being aimed at rather than at themselves :

 

Paul Cram:

I am not interested in dumbing down kits to encourage them. There is far too much pandering to people who can't be bothered to learn how to do anything. If people want to come into the hobby fine, if they don't that is equally fine. If the rtr manufacturers stopped tomorrow I wouldn't be bothered

("the hobby" here seems to mean "finescale modelling")

 

I think in some cases people are still trying to see the hobby in the terms of the old "proprietary v scale" split of the 1950s and 1960s - if it isn't EM/P4 then it's just Triang.... That is a false dicotomy - we are dealing with a broad spectrum , not a nice neat polarisation into two opposite camps

[James]

You only have to look at DJH's website to see what business they're in - and it's barely the model railway business!

[Buckjumper]

Well, after this weekend, I have it on VERY good authority that "kit-building is dying".

 

This has come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a major retailer of kits whose market has shrunk massively over the last few years. (From selling 30 kits a weekend at Telford, to selling TWO, and none on the sunday).

 

He puts it down to the lack of enough people with the skills to build a decent kit into a decent model.

 

 

And yet...I phoned another etched kit trader this week to reserve a couple of kits so that I could pick them up at the Reading 0 Gauge trade show next weekend. He said I'd phoned just in time as they were the last two remaining from the run he'd had done for the show. I suspect that most traders will fit somewhere between yours and my examples.

[halfwit]

Well, after this weekend, I have it on VERY good authority that "kit-building is dying".

 

This has come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a major retailer of kits whose market has shrunk massively over the last few years. (From selling 30 kits a weekend at Telford, to selling TWO, and none on the sunday).

 

He puts it down to the lack of enough people with the skills to build a decent kit into a decent model.

 

Personally, I'd put it down to a recession.

[Rannoch Moor]

Personally, I'd put it down to a recession.

 

I would probably agree especially in the more expensive 7mm community. With regard to the balance of OO, EM and P4 4mm proponents, I seem to remember Alan Gibson saying in one of the first MRJ Interviews (about 10 years ago certainly) that the bulk of his customers were OO, a sizeable but small minority in EM and a very few in P4 (whom I think caused more trouble than all the others...!). I wonder if this is still the case - the AG stand certainly seemed to be doing roaring trade at Scaleforum - which if the balance is still even roughly the same might suggest a future for EVERYONE!

[Paul Cram]

In a 4mm context , I very definitely wouldn't define "finescale" as "other than RTR".

 

However I have a very strong sense that quite a few people who have posted in this thread , from a P4 perspective, are tacitly and instinctively defining P4/EM as "finescale" - and everything else as "RTR - just opening blue and red boxes" . Take this exchange a couple of pages back:

 

Metropolitan:

 

 

billbedford

 

 

I do take billbedford to be suggesting there that no-one outside S4S actually makes anything

.

From the perspective of "MRJ-world" "finescale" = "kits" , "kits = finescale" . Until recently MRJ didn't even acknowledge RTR , on the basis that it was irrelevant to its readers....

 

Back in the rest of the world there are plenty of modellers like you and me who aren't in P4 or EM and make things . This is at least as important a group for kitbuilding as the finescale movement , but it is a group that people from a finescale perspective don't necessarily wish to accept exists, and which they object kits being aimed at rather than at themselves :

 

Paul Cram:

("the hobby" here seems to mean "finescale modelling")

 

I think in some cases people are still trying to see the hobby in the terms of the old "proprietary v scale" split of the 1950s and 1960s - if it isn't EM/P4 then it's just Triang.... That is a false dicotomy - we are dealing with a broad spectrum , not a nice neat polarisation into two opposite camps

 

You are mis interpreting what I was saying. I agree that there are more OO modellers than EM/P4. It takes as much skill to build an etched loco body regardless of guage, What I want is detailed kits. I choose to model NER and LNER up to and including 1939 and as such there is not a lot of choice in rtr hence the comment. I suspect that most of us have more kits than we have time to build and if there were no more produced it would have no impact on me. Likewise I build for me and the friends already in the hobby. I don't need any new members although more are welcome if they choose to join. However I do regard finescale as P4 as this is the only true scale guage. Others have a different view which is equally fine. I am not a membewr of either the P4 or ENGS societies.

[James]

However I do regard finescale as P4 as this is the only true scale guage.

 

If you buy a copy of Finescale Modeller you might decide to revise your idea as to what finescale is.

 

I think it's a state of mind - at Scaleforum one year, when all the 1883 Competition layouts were present there was a layout exhibited there as part of the competition, and the stock had Tri-Ang style tension lock couplings! It certainly didn't fit my thinking as to what Finescale is!

[Paul Cram]

If you buy a copy of Finescale Modeller you might decide to revise your idea as to what finescale is.

 

I think it's a state of mind - at Scaleforum one year, when all the 1883 Competition layouts were present there was a layout exhibited there as part of the competition, and the stock had Tri-Ang style tension lock couplings! It certainly didn't fit my thinking as to what Finescale is!

 

Hi James

 

I didn't say all P4 models were finescale just that none ot the others are. I stand by this as 4mm to the foot means just that for all major dimensions not just some.As I said just my view other views are available.

[Buckjumper]

Personally, I'd put it down to a recession.

 

I would probably agree especially in the more expensive 7mm community.

 

As a 7mm trader working in the bespoke and therefore more expensive end of the market, my order book is busier than at any time in the last seven years.

[James]

Hi James

 

I didn't say all P4 models were finescale just that none ot the others are. I stand by this as 4mm to the foot means just that for all major dimensions not just some.As I said just my view other views are available.

 

Well I think you are wrong, very wrong.

 

But we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one