The future of loco kit building

[MJI]

And why should they?

 

You've just said the market is contracting so maybe a discount just isn't viable?

 

One further thing which struck me is that the second hand kit market seems quite healthy if eBay is anything to go by - maybe this has had an impact on new kits? Some of those who may be more experienced will be aware that earlier kits from fresher moulds may represent a better prospect than newer kits. And previously second hand kits were really only seen at shows but a simple search on eBay brings up many, many examples.

 

Maybe we have to accept that the hobby will change - I bet some gentlemen modellers in thirties would be up in arms at the thought of having models so easily contructed from kits when they had build and create from scratch.

 

All hobbies change - not so long ago modifying cars was very much men-in-sheds but not much tuning is achieved with remaps. I know of some older cars where power could be increased by bending a turbo actuator arm with a metal bar! But now it's a much more 'techy' operation. The end result is more or less the same, but it has been met with a negative reaction in parts. 'Built-not-Bought' stickers can be seen on many modified cars which reflects this sentiment and is an inidcation of people proud to have done work themselves - just as many of us will continue to build and enjoy creating our own locos.

 

 

I think part of the decline is also a slight decline in the hobby.

 

As to cars hmm, I have modified 2, 1st was porting, heavy head skim, new cam, twin carbs, rally springs and cheap wide steel wheels.

 

Current is ported, 4 cams, german aftermarket springs.

 

Both were fulfilling, but the newer one is not very skimable

[MJI]

Well my wanted list includes 2 available as kits, a 009 steam loco and a WR PWM650, purchase will be made when overdraft is smaller.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi James

 

I didn't say all P4 models were finescale just that none ot the others are. I stand by this as 4mm to the foot means just that for all major dimensions not just some.As I said just my view other views are available.

 

Hi Paul

 

That is a very narrow approach to what happens in this hobby. There are many modellers who make excellent models who do not model in P4. Have a look at Colin Parks latest model http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62883-tin-hal/page__fromsearch__1 now tell me that is not a fine model.

[Paul Cram]

Hi Paul

 

That is a very narrow approach to what happens in this hobby. There are many modellers who make excellent models who do not model in P4. Have a look at Colin Parks latest model http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1 now tell me that is not a fine model.

 

Hi Clive

 

I agree that there are many fine 4mm models in guages other than P4 but they cannot be regarded as finescale when they are a combination of scales.

[billbedford]

I do take billbedford to be suggesting there that no-one outside S4S actually makes anything

 

Then you would be very wrong.

 

I would very much doubt that there are more than 2 or 3 thousand people build 4mm loco kits in any one year in this country. The average kit sale are about 50 over five years, about 30 of them will be in the first year and dropping to a handful in subsequent years. If there are 20 new loco kits a year, and that sounds generous to me, then there are going to be about 10,000 total sales in a year. Now we know that only a minority of these kits will be made up by the purchasers and some will be built by professionals. So a total of 2-3,000 people building kits seems to be a good ball-park figure, and this would be for all flavours of 4mm scale.

 

The outcome of this sort of exercise is that if I, or any other designer, actually wants to make a living in this business then I have to say that there is very little profit in carrying of with the same old format.

[James]

I agree that there are many fine 4mm models in guages other than P4 but they cannot be regarded as finescale when they are a combination of scales.

 

But many P4 layouts have compromises - you only have to look at the poor signalling, or lack of signalling, on a surprising number 'finescale' layouts to see there is an awful lot more to being 'finescale' than the gauge.

[Paul Cram]

But many P4 layouts have compromises - you only have to look at the poor signalling, or lack of signalling, on a surprising number 'finescale' layouts to see there is an awful lot more to being 'finescale' than the gauge.

 

Just because something doesn't exist on a P4 layout doesn't make the other guages finescale, it can't be finescale without the guage. Perhaps true scale and hybrid would be better definitions.

[James]

P4 isn't true scale, it's a set of dimensions which are a practical proposition and very close to exact scale. S4 is an exact scaling down - the confusion comes from Ray Hammond 'allowing' the break away society to use 'Scalefour' in their title.

[Mod3]

Let's keep the gauge wars out of it gentlemen or the thread will be locked

[Horsetan]

...S4 is an exact scaling down...

 

Good thing, too!

[mikemeg]

Valid as some of the above views may be, I am at a loss (but then at my age I find myself there increasingly frequently) as to how they relate to the question - the future of kitbuilding. Whether 00 can be considered 'finescale' was not the initial question posed and doesn't seem, to me, to have any real bearing on that question.

 

Just as the price of the best of the r-t-r locomotive offerings seems to be racheting up (even with the low Chinese costs of production), leading to cheaper if less detailed offerings, so I find myself agreeing with Bill Bedford (and Bill should know, he makes his living doing this) that cheaper methods of producing kits will be necessary.

 

I would argue that some of the 4mm r-t-r suppliers have now passed a price 'threshhold' for many people in the price of some of their latest models. Almost £300 for a 4mm A4, albeit with dcc and sound, is in the 7mm price range. £120 - £140 now seems commonplace, though I know they can be bought more cheaply with discounts.

 

Equally as 4mm etched locomotive kits go through the £150 threshhold (and some have) towards £200, then whatever the numbers who build kits, affordabaility starts to become an issue. Then cheaper and probably simpler methods of production and of assembly will need to have been found to replace the etched brass and nickel silver kits which we have now, simply for affordability.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Joseph_Pestell]

I did mention my trying to buy TWO kits off DJH, total value of over £1800, including wheels, motor and gears, at telford on the Sunday, if they would give me even 5% discount........they refused. I didn't buy either, and still have not done so. The gent I spoke to on Saturday told me I had no idea about DJH's profit margins...and so I don't, but I DO feel theirs are some of the, shall we say, less modestly priced kits.

 

 

 

Given the costs of production and marketing, a 5% discount is probably equal to a reduction of between 20% and 25% in their profit. How would you feel if your boss comes to you today and asks you to take a 25% reduction in your salary?

[Joseph_Pestell]

It seems to me that any decline in kitbuilding (as regards to new entrants) is partly about a lack of easy starter kits, e.g. "bodyline" on r-t-r chassis.

 

But is also about easy availability. I was lucky enough to grow up living close to a specialist model railway shop (Hobbytime, West Wickham). In addition to r-t-r, they stocked loco kits from K's, Wills, Stephen Poole, Jamieson (and no doubt some others as well). They stocked PC coach kits as well as their own extensive BSL range. And there was a drawer of Romford wheels, pick-ups, etc.

 

Not many of this sort of shop exist now as they have been killed off by the discounters. Apart from these bits being readily available, the big advantage was that the proprietor, Denis Hextall, liked to encourage new young modellers and would take time to talk through problems (so long as you didn't go on a busy Saturday morning).

[Buckjumper]

 

Almost £300 for a 4mm A4, albeit with dcc and sound, is in the 7mm price range.

 

Could you qualify that for me please Mike?

[Clive Mortimore]

It seems to me that any decline in kitbuilding (as regards to new entrants) is partly about a lack of easy starter kits, e.g. "bodyline" on r-t-r chassis.

 

But is also about easy availability. I was lucky enough to grow up living close to a specialist model railway shop (Hobbytime, West Wickham). In addition to r-t-r, they stocked loco kits from K's, Wills, Stephen Poole, Jamieson (and no doubt some others as well). They stocked PC coach kits as well as their own extensive BSL range. And there was a drawer of Romford wheels, pick-ups, etc.

 

Not many of this sort of shop exist now as they have been killed off by the discounters. Apart from these bits being readily available, the big advantage was that the proprietor, Denis Hextall, liked to encourage new young modellers and would take time to talk through problems (so long as you didn't go on a busy Saturday morning).

 

Hi Joesph

 

Didn't bodyline kits fall out of favor because many of the chassis they were intented to run on were incorrect in wheel base and wrong size driving wheels. So chassis only kits became avaviable for these providing the modeller was prepared to move things like misplaced splashers on the body. Many of the old Wills body line kits are now revised with chassis in the South East Finecast range.

 

The idea is still a good one in my opinion.

[hayfield]

Well, after this weekend, I have it on VERY good authority that "kit-building is dying".

 

This has come from the horse's mouth, so to speak, a major retailer of kits whose market has shrunk massively over the last few years. (From selling 30 kits a weekend at Telford, to selling TWO, and none on the sunday).

 

He puts it down to the lack of enough people with the skills to build a decent kit into a decent model.

 

 

Judging by the number of un-built kits that come up for sale on Ebay each week. I would say that in the past due to the lack of either the range or well detailed RTR models, modellers brought kits of the locos they wanted, but never built them (lack of building skills).

 

How many of the 30 kits were ever built ? not many I guess. I bet both that are bought now get built.

[coachmann]

Incorrect wheelbase was often the case when using proprietary chassis but wheel size wasn't because many modellers fitted Romford drivers, indeed this was desirable if the chassis was of Triang origins. Bushing the Triang axleholes down to 1/8" was routinely carried out as was drlling and tapping the Romford driving wheels.....something that would scare the h*ll out of many of todays modellers....Aye, we were a hardy lot living in't middle of road in a shoebox wi' now't but a pair of clogs between us...

 

I know from my job in the trade that a lot of people did buy loco kits "to be built at a later stage". Trouble was, folk didn't realise how quickly time passes and sadly some some passed away leaving their families lots of unopened kit boxes to dispose of.

[halfwit]

Personally I look at price somewhat differently to others. I dont buy a kit for, say £100, and think of that as the price for a loco. I buy a kit for £100 and look at it as many, many enjoyable hours spent at the workbench, followed by owning a loco which I can truly say is mine. Then £100 looks like a bargain!

[coachmann]

I don't think kit manufacturers are out to make a killing, they have to charge realistic prices to cover the cost of casting, etchings, buying in nuts and bolts, wrapping tissie, boxes, plastic bags and so-on, then they have to charge for their time carefully packing each individual kit. If they pass their kits through the trade they are giving 40% discount or thereabouts. From where I'm standing it is easy to spot the guys who know absolutely nothing about being in business.

 

I produced a lot of coach parts that I know would be very useful to other modellers, but the logistics of buying in the necessary packing and fold-over labelling not to mention corrugated cardboard or stiffening to protect the parts while in transit is just too much bother. To make the effort worthwhile to me would incur high prices.

[James]

affordabaility starts to become an issue.

 

In the past, as soon as people have questioned the price of RTR they have been shouted down and told to 'understand' why the prices are so. However, in the real world it is an issue - those with families may have the money but justifying it can still be an issue!

 

Could you qualify that for me please Mike?

 

If you look at smaller locos in 7mm, the price is comparable.

[Buckjumper]

If you look at smaller locos in 7mm, the price is comparable.

 

Quite right James, but my point is that it's not a new phenomenon. Pulling out an old RM at random I find June 1997 and the smallest loco kit in 7mm from one trader was £78 and over page is an RTR A4 from Bachmann at £68.

[t-b-g]

Personally I look at price somewhat differently to others. I dont buy a kit for, say £100, and think of that as the price for a loco. I buy a kit for £100 and look at it as many, many enjoyable hours spent at the workbench, followed by owning a loco which I can truly say is mine. Then £100 looks like a bargain!

 

That, to me, is as good an explanation of why some of us build kits as we are going to get. It is not about comparing kits with RTR stuff. Or snobbery. Or track gauge. It is about the satisfaction attained from turning a set of often less than perfect componenets into a finished loco, which looks good and runs well on your layout.

 

Buying a kit £100

 

Wheels motor and gears £50

 

Paint and transfers £5

 

Satisfaction from seeing something on your layout that you have made yourself - priceless!

 

Whilever there are enough folk that think that modelling is about making things rather than buying them ready made, kit building has a good chance of carrying on. Even if all the kit producers packed up tomorrow, we could still spend the next 50 years completing all the unbuilt back catalogue!

[Jol Wilkinson]

Valid as some of the above views may be, I am at a loss (but then at my age I find myself there increasingly frequently) as to how they relate to the question - the future of kitbuilding. Whether 00 can be considered 'finescale' was not the initial question posed and doesn't seem, to me, to have any real bearing on that question.

 

Just as the price of the best of the r-t-r locomotive offerings seems to be racheting up (even with the low Chinese costs of production), leading to cheaper if less detailed offerings, so I find myself agreeing with Bill Bedford (and Bill should know, he makes his living doing this) that cheaper methods of producing kits will be necessary.

 

I would argue that some of the 4mm r-t-r suppliers have now passed a price 'threshhold' for many people in the price of some of their latest models. Almost £300 for a 4mm A4, albeit with dcc and sound, is in the 7mm price range. £120 - £140 now seems commonplace, though I know they can be bought more cheaply with discounts.

 

Equally as 4mm etched locomotive kits go through the £150 threshhold (and some have) towards £200, then whatever the numbers who build kits, affordabaility starts to become an issue. Then cheaper and probably simpler methods of production and of assembly will need to have been found to replace the etched brass and nickel silver kits which we have now, simply for affordability.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Mike,

 

the difficulty here is that the cost of the bought in items that most kit manufacturers rely on cannot usually be sourced more cheaply elsewhere. In fact, there has been a large migration away from one etcher this year, when first his minimum order value and then his etch prices when up significantly. The recipient of the new work was still charging roughly the pre-increase prices, so no saving but at least no increase either.

 

Unless the kit sale volumes were significantly higher (by a factor of at least five), then a manufacturer can't take any advantage out of volume purchasing. Even then that probably wouldn't provide much extra margin as many of the processes used by the upstream suppliers don't lend themselves to further automated volume production efficiencies, etching, investment casting or resin casting being good examples.

 

While RTR prices and discounts are highly visible, changes to kit pricing is not so obvious. I don't think that they have gone up excessively of late. In fact I know of one manufacturer whose prices haven't kept up with the RPI inflation index over the last 12/15 years.

 

The kit manufacturer do not appear to make a lot of money out of what they do. As proof of this, a quick look around the traders car park at S4um, expoEM, Railex or the likes will show that they aren't able to spend much on the vital means of transport they need to get to shows (there is one notable exception to this that I won't name). Quite a few of them operate as "retirement businesses" or part time in addtion to their main jobs.

 

Any reduction in kit prices would have to come from the manufacturer's own profit margin, which means their income. Other costs are unlikely to reduce (show stand rent, travel and hotel expenses, fuel bills, internet/advertising costs, etc.).

 

So although kit prices look expensive in relation to RTR products, they are probably cheap from a manufacturing cost analysis. The likelyhood is that a manufacturer would be more likely to pack up than reduce his prices to a totally uneconomic level.

 

Jol

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Joesph

 

Didn't bodyline kits fall out of favor because many of the chassis they were intented to run on were incorrect in wheel base and wrong size driving wheels. So chassis only kits became avaviable for these providing the modeller was prepared to move things like misplaced splashers on the body. Many of the old Wills body line kits are now revised with chassis in the South East Finecast range.

 

The idea is still a good one in my opinion.

 

Sure, some of the choices made for early bodyline kits were a bit obscure. Either they picked a popular prototype and ended up with something that looked wrong because of an inaccurate chassis. Or they picked a little-known prototype because it happened to fit well on an available chassis.

 

My worry these days is that the mainstream r-t-r manufacturers produce in such small batches. Could one be sure that the chassis one needed would continue to be available? A bit different in the old days when a Triang/Hornby 0-6-0 chassis could be found under several of their locos over the years.

 

Perhaps the answer is to find someone who is good at building loco chassis and supply an r-t-r chassis built from a bespoke frame kit?

[billbedford]

Just as the price of the best of the r-t-r locomotive offerings seems to be racheting up (even with the low Chinese costs of production), leading to cheaper if less detailed offerings, so I find myself agreeing with Bill Bedford (and Bill should know, he makes his living doing this) that cheaper methods of producing kits will be necessary.

 

I'm not sure that making kits cheaper is the way forward, I would suggest that making kits more accessible and more attractive to a bigger range of people would be the more profitable.

 

I would argue that some of the 4mm r-t-r suppliers have now passed a price 'threshhold' for many people in the price of some of their latest models. Almost £300 for a 4mm A4, albeit with dcc and sound, is in the 7mm price range. £120 - £140 now seems commonplace, though I know they can be bought more cheaply with discounts.

 

Don't forget that income = price x volume, so that at each price point there will be a volume that can be expected. Which means that costs etc can be adjusted to give the necessary profit at the projected volume.

 

Equally as 4mm etched locomotive kits go through the £150 threshhold (and some have) towards £200, then whatever the numbers who build kits, affordabaility starts to become an issue. Then cheaper and probably simpler methods of production and of assembly will need to have been found to replace the etched brass and nickel silver kits which we have now, simply for affordability.

 

Maybe, but looking at professional builders who sell on the £500-£1000 price bracket in 4mm, most will tell you that they are booked up for work for years in advance. Which would suggest that some people are quite willing to pay premium prices, whether there would be enough people willing to pay other prices needs some investigation.