billbedford Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Bill, you've got me confused with this posting. Here's a guy (John) trying to de-mystify kit building and trying to encourage others to try it or adopt it more regularly; all motives which I would think you would applaud. Having someone spend 40 hours building a loco that is going to cost upwards of £500, when similar imported models cost around £100, does not seem to me to be an efficient way of manufacturing. Especially when you consider this. I'm not saying that the Irish loco is the way I would approach producing models, nor am I suggesting that £100 is an achievable price point, but if the market is for locos that can be used on a layout with the minimum of effort, then assembling a set of scratch builder's parts is not the best way of doing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 This seems to be an awful lot of work just to get a loco -- and not enough to be an interesting challenge…….. For a former kit producer that is the most disappointing statement I've ever heard! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Having someone spend 40 hours building a loco that is going to cost upwards of £500, when similar imported models cost around £100, does not seem to me to be an efficient way of manufacturing. Especially when you consider this. I'm not saying that the Irish loco is the way I would approach producing models, nor am I suggesting that £100 is an achievable price point, but if the market is for locos that can be used on a layout with the minimum of effort, then assembling a set of scratch builder's parts is not the best way of doing it. Ok, I now see what you are saying and in a situation where every single class of locomotive, ever produced, is available as a cheap, mass produced model, then your 'stark choice' becomes a reality and, notwithstanding gauge differences, kits would struggle to survive. But the r-t-r community still produces models of only a fraction of the locomotive types ever produced. If someone wants a model of a prototype not so represented then r-t-r bashing, kit or scratch building are the alternatives and there are still plenty of purchasers, who do not have the skills or the time, prepared to pay the high costs of professionally built models. There are still folk prepared to build or pay for the building of models which are represented by the r-t-r trade and represented very well. If your argument is that new technologies and materials will supplant brass and nickel silver and that those new technologies will obviate the need for building, as we now know it, then to some extent you might be right - that process has already begun - but we are a long way from complete replacment of existing materials and approaches. One could use the same argument for anything which is hand produced and unique. Why would anyone commission a painting or sculpture when mass produced prints and cast resin copies can be had for a fraction of the price? But they are commissioned, high prices paid, and they are highly prized and sought after. It will be a dreadfully sad world when such choices are removed from us and we are governed, solely, by the economies of scale and the costs of production! Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Accurascale Fran Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 This seems to be an awful lot of work just to get a loco -- and not enough to be an interesting challenge…….. Surely the point of building a loco kit (or any kit for that matter) these days is the enjoyment of building something and the satisfaction they get from the achievement? That and/or they're not available to buy RTR. I know the former is the reason why I want to start building loco and stock kits, and why these videos posted are of huge benefit and help to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 This seems to be an awful lot of work just to get a loco -- and not enough to be an interesting challenge…….. I don't understand your point at all. Are you saying he is making too much of a meal of the build, or rushing it? Or are you saying that the kit is not a good one? Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 id also like to put my opinion in that I dont think John is rushing, ok he didnt cut off and file off the taps straight away but he did say a few times he would come back later and clean them up. twisting some tougher bits out is ok,some bits do just pull off with ease. I dont think he would do it with coupling rods say there is a difference between rushing and working quickly and he is also trying to record the build on video I reckon if some on here did a video we'd probably have hours of footage of them just looking at the thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I reckon if some on here did a video we'd probably have hours of footage of them just looking at the thing. Exactly, or filing. I'm building a few brass vans at the moment and I've spent a huge amount of time just filing. That would make an exceedingly boring video! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 I am not convinced of the benefits of videos for kit instructions. I have just bought a new piece of audio electronics that came with the manual on a dvd. To use it I have to sit in the lounge with the laptop on my knees, while wresting with the non intuitive operating system. On the other hand, my car came with an owners manual, which I can refer to while sitting in the car or take indoors to study. How many of us have a pc screen on our modelling bench? I am still convinced that hard copy instructions that you can have directly to hand while working, make notes on, etc. are the best. Videos are more suited to training, explaining techniques and processes, etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Jol, probably right, I dont think a kit should have to come with a cd, unless the manufacturer wants to, but would be good if the manufacturer did some youtube videos of them building their own kits, could be helpful for the builder to refer to but could be a good way of advertising too. I usually have the laptop with me on the workbench because most of my prototype shots are on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metropolitan Posted October 30, 2012 Author Share Posted October 30, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lefcYPk20kk&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sej Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Fantastic! Entertaining, inspirational, thought provoking and just that little bit dangerous. A Bond movie for modelling! If anyone wants to know about why humanity finds the production of objects so rewarding, there's a great book on the subject called, "The Case For Working With Your Hands" by Matthew Crawford. Had you thought of some gentle background music John? Regards Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper John Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 God almighty John, A Hurricane has just blown me away in 26mins, amazing. i am a little slower atm I thought i recognised the hawks in the background and the rain on the roof, when i visit my mum in paington soon how about a beer? Grasshopper John. Edit: make that 39min. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Great to see the most important aspect of modelling shown in the last vid.....A nice hot cuppa !!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lefcYPk20kk&feature=youtu.be&noredirect=1 Your coffee's gone cold! How did you go about quartering the wheels please? From what I could see you don't look much like your photo. Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Mmmmmmmmmm Sandpapering solder joints that dont leave marks I wonder ? Use a needle file more control and a fine finish. Much easier to solder the rods together on a piece of wood using pins = no pain !! I use pieces of plastic insuation from electrical wire to hold the rods on , much quicker and reuseable. The soldering iron is lethal !! use a stand , love the melting plastic handle !! excellent video thanks again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 This seems to be an awful lot of work just to get a loco -- and not enough to be an interesting challenge…….. Another classic comment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted October 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 30, 2012 Was I the only one waiting for him to dip the rods in the tea rather than the flux cracking entertainment John, keep it up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 John, Watching this last video, one query. You tested the chassis for tight spots with a High Level gearbox in place. But you appeared to tighten a grub screw on the final drive gear. All of the High Level boxes I've used (and I've used four different models of the High Level gearbox) have a brass final drive gear which is glued to the driven axle; they don't have grub screws in them. Have I missed something here or do you use a different arrangement? I'm also surprised that the planning phase didn't identify the fact that the chosen motor wouldn't fit. This phase would normally be done using a very simple drawing which shows :- Boiler centre line height and diameter and relationship to the height of the tops of the mainframes. Width and depth of the boiler cut out, in the rolled boiler, to accommodate the motor. Distance from the driven axle centre to the backhead, so identifying whether the non driving motor shaft needs to be removed, if the motor is mounted facing aft, or distance from the driven axle centre to the front of the boiler cut-out if the motor is mounted facing forward. Height from top of frame to centre of driven axle, so identifying whether the motor can sit clear of the tops of the mainframes, with the chosen gearbox and High Level provide a drawing sheet which shows the salient dimensions of all of their gearboxes. This drawing doesn't need to be done to scale, just as long as the salient dimensions are shown and cross referenced. No more than half an hour to do this but it can save a lot of time (and expense) later on. I didn't see the first two videos so may have missed this phase but working with an etched kit designer this is always the first activity before any assembly is started. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Your coffee's gone cold! How did you go about quartering the wheels please? From what I could see you don't look much like your photo. Ed Hello Ed, I think he is using Romford (or Markits) driving wheels with self quartered axles and securing nuts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Just thought I'd add for all those not born with asbestos hands or scar tissue that insulates try these (other suppliers available) very useful for when you drop the soldering iron and then catch it too quickly at the wrong end. safety first - complacency causes accidents - ya-de-ya Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 truly excellent - many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Was I the only one waiting for him to dip the rods in the tea rather than the flux a friend did that in a cold cup of tea on one of my loco's when annealing a saddle tank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 John, Watching this last video, one query. You tested the chassis for tight spots with a High Level gearbox in place. But you appeared to tighten a grub screw on the final drive gear. All of the High Level boxes I've used (and I've used four different models of the High Level gearbox) have a brass final drive gear which is glued to the driven axle; they don't have grub screws in them. Have I missed something here or do you use a different arrangement? hi Mike, quite a lot of the high level gearboxes do have grub screws on the final axle, it depends on the box and the ratio you want, ive had one or 2 without but I usually ask Chris G if possible to have one with a grub screwed final axle and he'll factor that in and recommend the gearbox etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earlswood Nob Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Good morning all The High Level Roadrunner Plus (30,40,54:1), Highflier (30,40,54:1), and Loadhauler Plus (60,80,104:1) all have a grubscrew final gear. I find these gearboxes are the most useful. There are times, e.g. a dock shunter, where a different gearbox has to be used and these usually have a Loctite fitted final gear. These gearboxes are one of the best modelling aids available. I am gradually replacing all my Hornby XO4 type motors with a Mashima Can driving through a High Level box. A interesting thread keep it up Earlswood Nob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemeg Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Good morning all The High Level Roadrunner Plus (30,40,54:1), Highflier (30,40,54:1), and Loadhauler Plus (60,80,104:1) all have a grubscrew final gear. I find these gearboxes are the most useful. There are times, e.g. a dock shunter, where a different gearbox has to be used and these usually have a Loctite fitted final gear. These gearboxes are one of the best modelling aids available. I am gradually replacing all my Hornby XO4 type motors with a Mashima Can driving through a High Level box. A interesting thread keep it up Earlswood Nob Mr N. (no I can't type that!) I was just about to ask the question which you've answered, so many thanks. I'd certainly go along with your comments, above, on High Level gearboxes. Is it just me who types like a fronch pilocemin and has to come back to odit owt tieping mostukes and spolling orrors; give me a spill chucker. Cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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