Wright writes.....

[2ManySpams]

Photo in post 2542.

The one with the 4F and the signal box.

Greatest advert for going P4.

Sorry, could not resist.

Bernard

Yes: The nature of the photo does emphasise the large flangeways on the point nearest the camera.

But: I doubt that Tony could have got the layout he wanted with larger P4 curves though. We all have to make compromises.

[Barry O]

Photo in post 2542.

The one with the 4F and the signal box.

Greatest advert for going P4.

Sorry, could not resist.

Bernard

Life is too short - any roads up its Tony's train set.. and P4 wouldn't have fitted the space (or run as well )

 

Baz

[Paddy]

Hi Tony,

 

I know you like to use Sable paint brushes.  Is there any particular brand you recommend/prefer?

 

Many thanks

 

Paddy

[micklner]

Green Arrow finished.  Due to damage by the Post office on previous commissions the Steps Vac pipes and other small details to be added by owner on receipt in due course.

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

I know you like to use Sable paint brushes.  Is there any particular brand you recommend/prefer?

 

Many thanks

 

Paddy

Paddy,

 

Winsor & Newtons Artists' sables - but they're not cheap.

 

Best wishes,

 

Tony.

[Theakerr]

Quote:  Windsor & Newtons Artists' sables - but they're not cheap.  So right.  I went to the local artist supply shop a while back looking for sable brushes only to find that they are kept in a very secure locked cabinet and i had to get the shop manager (only he was trusted with the key) to come and unlock the cabinet.  Three or four brushes was going to see me with a $100 bill.

[Tony Wright]

Quote:  Windsor & Newtons Artists' sables - but they're not cheap.  So right.  I went to the local artist supply shop a while back looking for sable brushes only to find that they are kept in a very secure locked cabinet and i had to get the shop manager (only he was trusted with the key) to come and unlock the cabinet.  Three or four brushes was going to see me with a $100 bill.

Sorry to be a pedant, but it's Winsor.

[bbishop]

Sorry to be a pedant, but it's Winsor.

Windsor's are even more expensive! I think it's £42M for a job lot.

 

Bill

[Tony Wright]

 

Photo in post 2542.

The one with the 4F and the signal box.

Greatest advert for going P4.

Sorry, could not resist.

Bernard

 

 

 

 

Bernard,

 

Of course, the grossly under-scale gauge and the grossly over-scale flanges and flangeways inherent with OO show up in head-on shots such as this, even in what's ostensibly FS OO (a nonsensical description, I admit). Were it P4, it would not, but would it run?

 

Certainly, no P4 B1 would negotiate 2' radius curves, nor probably a 4F. Advocates of P4 will no doubt say it's daft to even try, and, to some extent, I agree. But would that same advert for P4 apply to the main line? Could an ECML depiction in P4 be successfully accommodated in 32' x 12'? I very much doubt it. 

 

Given that P4 (Protofour- Studiolith originally) has been around for getting on for 50 years (though probably longer in a non-commercial sense), why has nobody (individual or group) built a BR Class One steam-powered main line depiction in P4/S4? By Class One I mean somewhere on the WCML, ECML, the WR main lines to Bristol or Birmingham or the SR main line to Basingstoke (and beyond). There was a model of Tring in New Zealand but a friend who saw it said it didn't run, and the pictures of it in the MRJ showed cobwebs across the lines from a signal gantry. Aberhafren was a good advert for P4, though hardly a trunk main line, and the late Tony Miles' beautiful Adavoyle ran very well, though his largest locos were 2-6-0s/4-4-0s. Chris Pendlenton certainly builds some outstanding ECML big stuff, but can they run on 15-coach trains at 90 mph? Knowing Chris' outstanding ability, no doubt they will, but where? Whetstone was a visually beautiful GC depiction but it was broken up in frustration because of poor running (and not winning a prize at a show?). Dunwhich, which ran superbly in EM, was converted to P4 and most stuff fell off. Wadhurst was a secondary SR main line but a rebuilt 'BB' wouldn't go round when I saw it.

 

No, show me a P4 equivalent of Tebay, Yatton Junction, Hungerford, Retford, High Dyke, Biggleswade, Stoke Summit or (dare I say it?) Little Bytham. In the last-mentioned case, BUILD over 150 appropriate locomotives (modify 50), BUILD over 100 carriages (modify a 120 more), BUILD over 300 wagons (modify many more), all in P4, and I might succumb to the seductions of your advert. Then run them on an (almost) full-length depiction of an ECML station in its BR heyday, for over four continuous hours, with no derailments, no failures (other than those caused by crumbling faculties!) at speeds (on the scenic section) of up to 100 mph. Why? Because during a day spent at the real LB in the summer of 1958 you would have seen just that. By cutting out the time gaps between the trains, I can run a representative 14-hour period sequence, with no loco appearing twice, except those which would - Grantham-Peterborough-only locos. I admit, though, that some of the trains have to double-up, but they're all scale-length. 

 

My apologies for 'shouting', but, sorry, I couldn't resist.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

I appreciate the reasoning about tautology, but I still feel there could be a justification for "County of Lincolnshire" and the like, which I would base on examining the meaning of "of".

 

When we speak of the City of Birmingham, we are surely not referring to two separate entities: (a) an entity named Birmingham and ( B) a separate entity: a city, which is owned by Birmingham; don't we mean that the city is Birmingham? If that is true, then "of" does not have its standard meaning that denotes possession; rather it has an idiomatic meaning that seems to apply only to places and can be understood as meaning something like  "that is named". Thus "The City of Birmingham" is equivalent to "The city that is named Birmingham" or even just "The city:Birmingham"..

 

ON that basis we could justify "County of Lincolnshire" if we understand it to mean "County that is named Lincolnshire", which seems to me perfectly OK and not at all tautological.

 

I should stress that this argument is based not on scholarship or expertise, just my own notions; so if anyone can prove that I am talking nonsense, I would be happy to be corrected.

 

[edit - I had no intention of inserting a smiley above: it is meant to be a letter b in brackets]

Thanks Andy,

 

But, it's still a fact that 'shire' and 'county' are words for the same thing. So, County of Lincolnshire is the same as saying County of Lincoln County, or Shire of Lincolnshire. 

 

There are many cities, not just Birmingham. 

 

That brings another interesting piece of grammatical head-scratching to the fore. What's the plural of Birmingham (or any other city/town)? I'd say 'Cities of Birmingham', though some might say 'City of Birminghams'.  

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

Re-the MGN, I feel that the selective compression is an added bonus to Little Bytham. It increases the contrast between the open and spacious nature of the trunk ECML, with the meandering, slightly down-at-heel feel of the cross country route passing overhead.

 

I might even be inclined to further reduce the train lengths on the MGN. As they pass at right angles to the ECML, then the length of each individual vehicle appears greater than the more head on view of an ECML express.

 

Wonder if you ever thought of modelling the MGN in a slightly smaller scale (say 3mm), so it receedes slightly more into the background?

 

Regards,

Peter

An interesting latter thought.

 

Many thanks.

[CoViAnna]

 

Photo in post 2542.

The one with the 4F and the signal box.

Greatest advert for going P4.

Sorry, could not resist.

Bernard

 

 

 

 

Bernard,

 

Of course, the grossly under-scale gauge and the grossly over-scale flanges and flangeways inherent with OO show up in head-on shots such as this, even in what's ostensibly FS OO (a nonsensical description, I admit). Were it P4, it would not, but would it run?

 

Certainly, no P4 B1 would negotiate 2' radius curves, nor probably a 4F. Advocates of P4 will no doubt say it's daft to even try, and, to some extent, I agree. But would that same advert for P4 apply to the main line? Could an ECML depiction in P4 be successfully accommodated in 32' x 12'? I very much doubt it. 

 

Given that P4 (Protofour- Studiolith originally) has been around for getting on for 50 years (though probably longer in a non-commercial sense), why has nobody (individual or group) built a BR Class One steam-powered main line depiction in P4/S4? By Class One I mean somewhere on the WCML, ECML, the WR main lines to Bristol or Birmingham or the SR main line to Basingstoke (and beyond). There was a model of Tring in New Zealand but a friend who saw it said it didn't run, and the pictures of it in the MRJ showed cobwebs across the lines from a signal gantry. Aberhafren was a good advert for P4, though hardly a trunk main line, and the late Tony Miles' beautiful Adavoyle ran very well, though his largest locos were 2-6-0s/4-4-0s. Chris Pendlenton certainly builds some outstanding ECML big stuff, but can they run on 15-coach trains at 90 mph? Knowing Chris' outstanding ability, no doubt they will, but where? Whetstone was a visually beautiful GC depiction but it was broken up in frustration because of poor running (and not winning a prize at a show?). Dunwhich, which ran superbly in EM, was converted to P4 and most stuff fell off. Wadhurst was a secondary SR main line but a rebuilt 'BB' wouldn't go round when I saw it.

 

No, show me a P4 equivalent of Tebay, Yatton Junction, Hungerford, Retford, High Dyke, Biggleswade, Stoke Summit or (dare I say it?) Little Bytham. In the last-mentioned case, BUILD over 150 appropriate locomotives (modify 50), BUILD over 100 carriages (modify a 120 more), BUILD over 300 wagons (modify many more), all in P4, and I might succumb to the seductions of your advert. Then run them on an (almost) full-length depiction of an ECML station in its BR heyday, for over four continuous hours, with no derailments, no failures (other than those caused by crumbling faculties!) at speeds (on the scenic section) of up to 100 mph. Why? Because during a day spent at the real LB in the summer of 1958 you would have seen just that. By cutting out the time gaps between the trains, I can run a representative 14-hour period sequence, with no loco appearing twice, except those which would - Grantham-Peterborough-only locos. I admit, though, that some of the trains have to double-up, but they're all scale-length. 

 

My apologies for 'shouting', but, sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

 

I agree with all you have said and the only P4 layout I can think of that meets your criteria is Mostyn. However I accept it is a diesel layout which may make a difference.

 

 

PS My first ever post on here!

Edited October 5, 2014 by CoViAnna

[Tony Wright]

Many thanks for all the recent comments. With regard to the niceties of English, my head is beginning to hurt!

 

Back to more 'important' things............

 

As mentioned, my role now in the finding of new homes for Dave Shakespeare's model railway equipment is the repair and tidying-up of the larger of the two dioramas for sale at Peterborough. How did I get this job? For one, one of our cars is a large estate, so it would fit in it (Andy and Gilbert have little cars). Two, I have the time to do the job, and, three, I'll deliver it and set it up at Peterborough (big car, again).

 

Why does the diorama need repair? Dave built it to last and gave no thought to its eventual removal (why should he?). Andy and I struggled to get it apart, and some of the delicate stuff was damaged (not beyond repair). As a single unit, end protectors will be needed now for transportation.

 

 

 

With the buildings removed, this is what it looks like in our hall (the only spare space where I can realistically work on it). 

 

 

Before adding the protective end-boards, I thought why not take a picture? So, I uprooted a tree (since replanted) and assembled my Dave Shakespeare loco and some of the wagons of his I've acquired on the viaduct (these will be on display on the diorama at Peterborough but are, obviously, not for re-sale). 

 

 

I've now added the protective end boards. These are held in place by screws and can be easily removed. They're made from offcuts of MDF (one a bit messy, I admit) and they do the job. I'll paint their inside faces matt white and the outside faces matt black. I'll also repair any damage, re-stick down the figures which have fallen off, re-stick any lampposts and so on. 

 

With the end boards removed, this viaduct scene would be a centrepiece for any West Riding-based 4mm layout, and should be easily adapted.

 

 

With the work finished on the Shaky scene for the day, I turned my attention to the M&GNR bit on LB. Styrofoam is great stuff for base work on the scenery. It's coming, but that bend is still very tight, and still visible!

Edited October 5, 2014 by Tony Wright

[Bernard Lamb]

Tony

I do not model in P4.

I am a total philistine who runs 00 and H0 models on the same track.

I was just pointing out that the photo was the best example I have ever seen of the difference between P4 and the more common standards.

The clearances in fact being of far greater significance than the gauge.

Although in the past I have exchanged words with Kenton who cannot see the difference.

I do admire those who work to more accurate standards.

I do find it sad that some of them no longer post on this forum.

I do not intend to get involved in a discussion as to why that is so.

Bernard

[Tony Wright]

 

I agree with all you have said and the only P4 layout I can think of that meets your criteria is Mostyn. However I accept it is a diesel layout which may make a difference.

 

 

PS My first ever post on here!

 

Many thanks,

 

I had considered Mostyn, but, as you say, it's a diesel layout. At the risk of bringing damnation down on my head, in my experience (never in P4, I admit) it's much easier to re-gauge diesels (to EM in my case) than steam-outline locos with outside valve gear (or build them complete). 

 

I grew up in Chester and in all three of my homes there I was no more than a five minute bike ride from the main line to N. Wales. But, it was rare to see more than two 8P Pacifics there in a day, so Mostyn doesn't qualify as one of my trunk main lines. That said, other than the occasional rebel loco shooting off all by itself (DCC!), when I've seen it, it does run very well. 

[Tony Wright]

Tony

I do not model in P4.

I am a total philistine who runs 00 and H0 models on the same track.

I was just pointing out that the photo was the best example I have ever seen of the difference between P4 and the more common standards.

The clearances in fact being of far greater significance than the gauge.

Although in the past I have exchanged words with Kenton who cannot see the difference.

I do admire those who work to more accurate standards.

I do find it sad that some of them no longer post on this forum.

I do not intend to get involved in a discussion as to why that is so.

Bernard

Bernard,

 

Many thanks

 

Philistines both!

 

I also greatly admire those who work in the finer standards. Which brings me to another point. I don't think I'm capable of working to the higher standards dictated by P4.

 

As for others no longer posting, I suppose that's up to them.

 

All the best,

 

Tony.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Tony Wright

[bbishop]

I'm loving the "county" and "shire" debate!

 

1. A county may or may not be a shire - viz: South East (eg Kent); South West (eg Cornwall); North (eg Durham). In Anglo-Saxon times, a shire was a type of legal entity, divided into Hundreds, although non-shires could also have Hundreds.

 

2. There was a time when all the shires were counties.

 

3. But there was an earlier time when shires need not have been counties, so part of Yorkshire was known as Hallamshire.

 

4. And since a recent re-organisation, some shires have ceased to have a legal entity, so Huntingdonshire is no longer a county, but has geographic boundaries.

 

So personally, I'm happy with Huntingdonshire and also with County of Huntingdonshire, so long as it were a legal entity at the time of its description.

 

Bill

[asmay2002]

 

Photo in post 2542.

The one with the 4F and the signal box.

Greatest advert for going P4.

Sorry, could not resist.

Bernard

 

 

 

 

Bernard,

 

Of course, the grossly under-scale gauge and the grossly over-scale flanges and flangeways inherent with OO show up in head-on shots such as this, even in what's ostensibly FS OO (a nonsensical description, I admit). Were it P4, it would not, but would it run?

 

Certainly, no P4 B1 would negotiate 2' radius curves, nor probably a 4F. Advocates of P4 will no doubt say it's daft to even try, and, to some extent, I agree. But would that same advert for P4 apply to the main line? Could an ECML depiction in P4 be successfully accommodated in 32' x 12'? I very much doubt it. 

 

Given that P4 (Protofour- Studiolith originally) has been around for getting on for 50 years (though probably longer in a non-commercial sense), why has nobody (individual or group) built a BR Class One steam-powered main line depiction in P4/S4? By Class One I mean somewhere on the WCML, ECML, the WR main lines to Bristol or Birmingham or the SR main line to Basingstoke (and beyond). There was a model of Tring in New Zealand but a friend who saw it said it didn't run, and the pictures of it in the MRJ showed cobwebs across the lines from a signal gantry. Aberhafren was a good advert for P4, though hardly a trunk main line, and the late Tony Miles' beautiful Adavoyle ran very well, though his largest locos were 2-6-0s/4-4-0s. Chris Pendlenton certainly builds some outstanding ECML big stuff, but can they run on 15-coach trains at 90 mph? Knowing Chris' outstanding ability, no doubt they will, but where? Whetstone was a visually beautiful GC depiction but it was broken up in frustration because of poor running (and not winning a prize at a show?). Dunwhich, which ran superbly in EM, was converted to P4 and most stuff fell off. Wadhurst was a secondary SR main line but a rebuilt 'BB' wouldn't go round when I saw it.

 

No, show me a P4 equivalent of Tebay, Yatton Junction, Hungerford, Retford, High Dyke, Biggleswade, Stoke Summit or (dare I say it?) Little Bytham. In the last-mentioned case, BUILD over 150 appropriate locomotives (modify 50), BUILD over 100 carriages (modify a 120 more), BUILD over 300 wagons (modify many more), all in P4, and I might succumb to the seductions of your advert. Then run them on an (almost) full-length depiction of an ECML station in its BR heyday, for over four continuous hours, with no derailments, no failures (other than those caused by crumbling faculties!) at speeds (on the scenic section) of up to 100 mph. Why? Because during a day spent at the real LB in the summer of 1958 you would have seen just that. By cutting out the time gaps between the trains, I can run a representative 14-hour period sequence, with no loco appearing twice, except those which would - Grantham-Peterborough-only locos. I admit, though, that some of the trains have to double-up, but they're all scale-length. 

 

My apologies for 'shouting', but, sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

 

This challenge was answered decades ago by Heckmondwyke.

[bbishop]

This challenge was answered decades ago by Heckmondwyke.

which was the model railway equivalent to the Decapod. It managed three shows before retirement. Didn't they go out with one team to operate the layout and a second team to repair the stock?

 

Bill

[Metr0Land]

I'm loving the "county" and "shire" debate!

 

1. A county may or may not be a shire - viz: South East (eg Kent); South West (eg Cornwall); North (eg Durham). In Anglo-Saxon times, a shire was a type of legal entity, divided into Hundreds, although non-shires could also have Hundreds.

 

2. There was a time when all the shires were counties.

 

3. But there was an earlier time when shires need not have been counties, so part of Yorkshire was known as Hallamshire.

 

4. And since a recent re-organisation, some shires have ceased to have a legal entity, so Huntingdonshire is no longer a county, but has geographic boundaries.

 

So personally, I'm happy with Huntingdonshire and also with County of Huntingdonshire, so long as it were a legal entity at the time of its description.

 

Bill

 

As an aside, with current Welsh counties (or whatever they're called now), if you see them written in Welsh as Sir <insert name here>, the Sir part is from the same root as shire in English.   eg Carmarthenshire is Sir Gâr

[Tony Wright]

This challenge was answered decades ago by Heckmondwyke.

Many thanks,

 

Indeed, but was it a Class One main line? The largest loco I saw running on it was a 'Crab', and then only one.

 

I'm a good friend of Bob Essery (he'll be very cross at you for spelling Heckmondwike with a 'y', by the way), and I remember his being 'hurt' by the comment 'the bells ring, but nothing runs'. I saw it, and I had to agree. Did you see it?

 

All the best. 

[Clive Mortimore]

 

I agree with all you have said and the only P4 layout I can think of that meets your criteria is Mostyn. However I accept it is a diesel layout which may make a difference.

 

 

PS My first ever post on here!

 

Hi CoViAnna

 

To add to your post, Calcutta Sidings 2, but that is diesel as well. A couple of months ago I had this same discussion with Tony in his man shed while driving some green steam thingy with a rake of coaches. I have to agree with Tony where is the large P4 /scalefour main line steam layout?

[Paddy]

Paddy,

 

Winsor & Newtons Artists' sables - but they're not cheap.

 

Best wishes,

 

Tony.

Thanks Tony. That is what I am using but I hold you might have found a cheaper alternative. :-)

 

Many thanks

 

Paddy

[jrg1]

Hi CoViAnna

 

To add to your post, Calcutta Sidings 2, but that is diesel as well. A couple of months ago I had this same discussion with Tony in his man shed while driving some green steam thingy with a rake of coaches. I have to agree with Tony where is the large P4 /scalefour main line steam layout?

Bill Richmond's LMS mainline-various MRJs

[queensquare]

This challenge was answered decades ago by Heckmondwyke.

 

I remember watching Heckmondwike at the old Bristol show in the 1970s and trains certainly did run very well - but not very often! It was a very spartan service. There weren't many big locos either - or high speed running. The biggest I remember was a Crab and a Compound.

Having played with both LB and Retford, OO and EM respectively, I have to say both worked impeccably with big engines pulling big trains at great speed. I won't say that can't be done in P4 but I've never seen it.

And before anyone mentions it yes I do predominantly work in 2mm finescale but its not actually that fine - just an awful lot finer than N. The tolerances and compromises are much more akin to EM than P4.

 

Jerry

Edited October 5, 2014 by queensquare