Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

I think I understand the feeling behind what is being said here, but of course we all have different skill levels, and strengths, so someone who is a great coachbuilder may not be such a good locobuilder and so on. Equally, if there were no "chequebook" layout builders or collectors out there, I suspect there might be rather a lot less people building for fees! I am not personally driven by whether I made a loco - because it is something that I have never felt able to aspire to - but I enjoy owning well built locos by others and I still manage to add my own touches; nevertheless, my layout is substantially my own work and I get satisfaction from seeing locos and rolling stock run well on it - whether they originated as RTR or kit-built.

Tony, 

 

I entirely agree with your point of view, and, having seen, run and photographed your professionally-built locos, the experience was a delight. But, on a purely personal level, I would also have loved to have chatted to the builder(s) about how he/she/they solved the problems in making them run so sweetly and how they achieved such a beautiful finish (on those wonderful carriages as well). As has been alluded to elsewhere, how could this possibly be seen as 'elitist'? I just love talking to fellow modellers about how they achieved their results, hoping I might learn something. 

 

It's always a delight when you visit, and I hope you don't think I view those who don't make everything themselves as being 'less worthy'. If that were the case, I'd certainly be very 'less worthy' myself. 

[Tony Teague]

Tony, 

 

I entirely agree with your point of view, and, having seen, run and photographed your professionally-built locos, the experience was a delight. But, on a purely personal level, I would also have loved to have chatted to the builder(s) about how he/she/they solved the problems in making them run so sweetly and how they achieved such a beautiful finish (on those wonderful carriages as well). As has been alluded to elsewhere, how could this possibly be seen as 'elitist'? I just love talking to fellow modellers about how they achieved their results, hoping I might learn something. 

 

It's always a delight when you visit, and I hope you don't think I view those who don't make everything themselves as being 'less worthy'. If that were the case, I'd certainly be very 'less worthy' myself. 

Tony

Certainly not - I am not sensitive enough to feel 'less worthy'!

Tony

[corneliuslundie]

I can't help feel that we have been here before. As has been said we are all different, modelling different railways with different skill levels in different scales and with different aims - building, operating, just owning etc. It is enlightening, I think, to look at the thread on layouts that have influenced individuals and notice that many of them were layouts which were not perfect visually but which could be operated properly as railways. A model railway, for me, is not just a baseboard with some track, scenery and vehicles. It is a representation of a piece of the world with a railway which looks when operated like the real thing looks/ed. In a way how this is achieved in the physical sense of what was bought or made by whom is immaterial. If it does not convince me when operated it is not a good model.

 

Tony (and friends) have a layout which does convince me in photos. Whether it would convince me in the "flesh" I shan't know until I am in a position to take up Tony's very generous offer to visit him.

 

So am I not a real modeller because I don't build locos (though even after previous disastrous efforts with Ks kits back in the 1970s I am about to try again) but I do scratch build wagons (wagons which no manufacturer is ever going to touch - I hope!)? Or is Tony not a real modeller because he builds locos but not (in general) wagons?

 

There is one thing I would point out, though. The financial risk of scratch building a wagon and making a mess of it is a lot less than for a loco.

 

So back to those Cambrian Railways timber wagons.

 

Jonathan

[Tony Wright]

I enjoy this thread but it can be a bit of a 'Marmite' one sometimes.

 

It may not be meant in this way but the emphasis is sometimes that kit building locomotives means you are a better modeller and anyone else is not worthy.

 

Now for me I am not really interested in building locomotives (Stirling Single aside) from a kit, although happy to detail and weather a RTR. I do like building stock though, as well as buildings and scenery which for me is what this hobby is about.

I took the decision about 18months ago to rebuild completely with handbuilt track, I may have the skills to build the pointwork but I just do not have the time, so I contracted it out to Norman Saunders (just tracks) who has done a superb job. Does this make me less of a modeller ?

In fact if I think about it the only thing I haven't made is the pointwork.  The extension drawings, planning permission, building of the room (part of a much larger project), baseboards, track, scenery etc is all down to me so far with no help from anyone (except Norman). I have also been surveying the remaining station buildings and putting together some drawings to model them from, and yet when I read this thread I sometimes come away feeling that unless I build a loco kit I wouldn't be taken seriously as a modeller.....by some....

 

It doesn't bother me,  but I do know of 2 who now won't read the thread because they feel it is too elitist......bit sad that...

Having been once called 'Marmite Man' by the late, great Shaky, I take that as a compliment. 

 

I also can't see how having someone else build the trackwork makes one 'less of a modeller'; so, in answer to your question you're definitely not. Well, no more or 'less of a modeller' than I am, because Norman Solomon made my scenic-side trackwork. Did you wire Norman Saunder's work? I only ask this because if anything goes wrong, one needs to know how to fix it. That's why I did the wiring on Norman's track (though I had to call the great man back after I'd mangled a point motor, only to find that I could have fixed it myself; in moments! Learning can have a high price).

 

Why should not being able to build a loco mean that you're not being taken seriously, by some? I hope that's never come across in my writing. I admit, it's been a bit galling down the years to find that when one scratch-builds a loco, almost immediately a kit comes out; then, when one builds a kit, there's almost instantly a wonderful RTR equivalent made available. In this feeling, I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

And, anyway, I'm puzzled by the notion that because I choose to make my locos and rolling stock in the main, and discuss the various methods with others who also do the same, I'm considered 'elitist' by some. Why do you think that I (and many, many more-able others) have been invited down the years to give demonstrations, talks, conduct seminars, make DVDs, act as a tutor, write articles, etc, etc, etc, on making models? Because we do make models, and hope that we can pass on our 'skills' and methodology to others, so that they, too, might be able to make things for themselves; but only if they're prepared to have a go. Yes, there are some who'll always fail, no matter how well they're shown, how brilliant the teacher (definitely not me) and how good the materials they're given. Such folk should never be denied the right to enjoy railway modelling, either through commissioning others to do work for them and/or using the excellence of today's RTR/RTP products. However, if they consider those who can do things for themselves 'elitist', then perhaps are they guilty of a bit of jealousy? 

 

In all honesty, I'm considering ceasing posting on this thread. It's definitely not my property, so others can keep it going if they wish. I have so many projects on the go - making models, writing books and so on, I wonder sometimes is it worth it? Please don't think I'm hoping for a mass of 'Oh please keep it going' posts, but if by advocating the actual making of things (not just locos), I'm considered part of some mythical elite, then I'd better disappear. Unless readers want me to explain how to commission things, how to write cheques, how to open boxes, how to put stuff on the track/put in place RTP buildings and turn a knob. Cynical, me?

 

As I've said, I've been deeply fortunate to have worked with some extremely talented modellers down the years and to have learned much mutually. But, anything we've achieved has been through our own efforts in the main. If that's elitist, so be it!

[Focalplane]

Just what is wrong with elitism?  I think it is frowned upon by many these days partly out of political correctness - we can't have failures so we also cannot have winners.  Surely the pinnacle of one's own achievement (in anything) is to be recognized by one's peers - from whom one may have learned many things and applied them well.  If that's a bit of a mouthful I apologize; I couldn't find a better way to say it.

 

I would add that I would be just as pleased with my efforts were I marooned on a desert island with no group to share my work with.  But I like to improve whatever I do and I aspire to be better than I am.  So I participate in RMWeb primarily so I can learn about skills I don't have and at the same time share what little I do know in order to help and inspire others.  I have only recently discovered Wright Writes and I feel I have found a new school of learning!

[Ian Smeeton]

Whatever yo do Tony, please do not stop posting.

 

The debate is often lively, but it is your own input that I read from start to finish, while (sometimes) skimming the others. (No offence intended).

 

While I do not 'follow' this thread (mainly because I can't find the follow button) I make a point of catching up with it every day or two just to marvel at the wonderful stock.

 

My own modelling is very much on the back burner for the next few years, so I have nothing to show and usually even less to contribute, but please keep posting.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[46256]

Lively and interesting debate...excellent inspirational modelling....more please tony

[johnarcher]

In all honesty, I'm considering ceasing posting on this thread. It's definitely not my property, so others can keep it going if they wish. I have so many projects on the go - making models, writing books and so on, I wonder sometimes is it worth it? Please don't think I'm hoping for a mass of 'Oh please keep it going' posts, but if by advocating the actual making of things (not just locos), I'm considered part of some mythical elite, then I'd better disappear. Unless readers want me to explain how to commission things, how to write cheques, how to open boxes, how to put stuff on the track/put in place RTP buildings and turn a knob. Cynical, me?

 

As I've said, I've been deeply fortunate to have worked with some extremely talented modellers down the years and to have learned much mutually. But, anything we've achieved has been through our own efforts in the main. If that's elitist, so be it!

"Oh please keep it going" - that's just one, not a mass, so that's OK I hope - and said despite the thread's unaccountable interest in things Eastern (still, from the point of view of the Schull & Skibbereen or the Tralee & Dingle practically everything's eastern)

Considering how much posting there is about what is or may be produced by Bachmann et al it doesn't seem too much to have a thread where people can value the interest and challenge of making things, learn a bit about it and admire the achievements of those with more experience.

There's nothing elitist about being good at something and others enjoying what you've done, and maybe being inspired to raise their own game. (Sportsmen do it all the time). I don't find any problem in saying Tony makes locos very nicely, in admiring the result (even if I don't recognise the prototype), and in admitting that he  has more skill at it than I have (for a very good reason, not because he's some sort of superior being, or claims to be, but because I've made 5 locos - no 4 and a half - whereas he's made more than Crewe and Swindon combined - so let's all enjoy the models).

Edited February 23, 2015 by johnarcher

[robmcg]

I just wrote a modestly long essay on the way your thread is read by many and much appreciated, Tony, and THE SOFTWARE ATE IT even though it had been 'saved' in my copy editor. Arrrggghhh. I should have written it OUTSIDE RMweb and then copied it into a reply window. RMweb software simply stopped, seized, and could not be recovered without losing everything.

 

Essentially, and I'll never remember my exact phrasing, your skills throw into relief the value of outstanding current RTR models and the pleasures and challenges of building models oneself.

 

I did not know whether to laugh or cry when I read the mixed feelings of a gentleman who had bought a £140 Hornby GWR WW1 Troop Train pack, grubby marks on the engine and one faulty wheel on a carriage, when thinking of what it would cost in time and money to build equivalent standard models from scratch or a kit, and paint them!

 

Your thread shows us a very high standard of modelling and we can ponder the nuances of perspective, space, illusion, and the pleasure of modelling generally. It adds greatly to the hobby, and to the pleasure of life.

 

So what if we have limitations, you do not hesitate to mention these, too. The thread has an easy and informal air, I for one greatly appreciate the considerable time you expend in writing and illustrating.

 

My own limitations are considerable, and here is my rendition of Hornby's WW1 Star 4050 'Princess Alice' with my computer-generated additions, which I greatly enjoy creating. I added this as an edit, rather than trust this software

 

Isn't the GWR Star the mostly beautifully-proportioned engine EVER?

 

 

Rob

Edited February 23, 2015 by robmcg

[edcayton]

. The guys I'm helping in their individual modelling don't need my advice on how to buy/commission things.That, they can do for themselves. 

 

But isn't that what you do with your reviews in the mags, and on here? Whatever, please keep it coming Tony, this is one of the threads I keep coming to.

 

Ed

[micklner]

This is just one thread if you don't like what you are reading then don't bother.

 

Amazes me that people have to instead of just doing that,  they cannot resist making a "so called comment" .

 

As others have said ignore them and please carry on, a mine of information and highly recommended !! .

[Anglian]

Given that this is a thread that Tony started to open an on-going conversation about modelling railways and this is a forum to promote modelling railways I struggle to see how one man's vision (in this case Tony's) can possibly been seen to be elitist – rather this is a debate on an open forum and all who wish to voice an opinion may do so. Without wishing or intending in anyway to denigrate what Tony has written I'm sure he'd be the first to acknowledge that not everybody will nod in agreement with every last word he writes. Does it matter – no. You or I can start our own threads and talk about what aspect(s) of railway modelling we find particularly enjoyable or stimulating, if we dared to specialise would we then be tarred with an elite brush, what ever one of those might look like (pure sable I expect). Tony's layout does have many exquisite locomotives and coaches but alongside side them are R-T-R models that he has made his own by renumbering and careful weathering and whilst we can't all work to such standards they are both things that all can undertake – far from elitist modelling. Surely seeing it done and done well is inspiring or have I misunderstood something about the hobby in general?

 

If you don't like the tone of a particular thread don't read it but please let's not have every thread written for everyman – that would make for a rather dull forum. Although I can only aspire to what many here achieve I come here to be inspired, enthralled and to learn. What little skills I've developed mostly lie with scenery and figures but I don't consider myself any less of a modeller because I find the idea of coach building or locomotive building currently beyond me.

 

Participation in any thread here is purely on a voluntary basis and I'm all for seeing the best that individuals can create even if it is beyond that which most can hope to achieve. Also it's worth keeping some perspective in the matter – this is a hobby forum, we're not writing policy documents that will change the lives of thousands. Now can we get back to talking about model trains.

 

(Edited to remove an error – I'm sure others remain.)

Edited February 24, 2015 by Anglian

[Corbs]

I think we need more photos of east coast giants hammering through Little Bytham...

[New Haven Neil]

One word - inspirational.

[westerner]

As one who has built wagon kits I have not built much else Oh except 6 layouts (baseboards, laid the Peco track, scenery etc) Thanks to Tony I decided to have a bash at a coach conversion from the old Hornby GWR restaurant car an H33 to a rebuilt H33 (post 1939) and paint in BR maroon. This is the result and I am very proud of it. Thanks Tony for the inspiration and advice in your article in the BRM annual.

 

 

 

and a couple of it in service

 

 

 

And if you want to see how it was built go here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/92858-h-33-restaurant-carriage-finished/

Edited February 23, 2015 by westerner

[corneliuslundie]

Can I take the thread in a slightly different direction? If no-one has any views, so be it but I shall be interested to hear Tony's thoughts.

 

It is sometimes said that modelling the pre-Grouping railway is much more difficult than modelling the more recent scene, such as Tony's early post -Nationalisation era. But is this true? I think that the period Tony is modelling is the most difficult of all. If I build an 1870s Mid Wales Railway wagon there is one drawing available and no photos. If Tony builds a model of a late LNER carriage in BR livery there are almost certainly two or three drawings, dozens of photos and plenty of people with memories. So the slightest "error" will be noticed and commented on - "That carriage was maroon that week, not blood and custard"; "the generator is slightly too far inboard"; "They didn't lay the tablecloths in the restaurant car until after Grantham on the down journey on the xxx train" etc.

 

My question is whether there is perhaps too much information available to make modelling enjoyable, because there is always the thought that there is one small fact one was not aware of. I have no such problems with Tony's superb models as I have a job telling a Thompson carriage from a Gresley one or one variant of O4 from another. But I still find Tony's modelling very convincing because of its overall quality and fidelity - perhaps in this case ignorance is bliss.

 

So in modelling can too much information be a bad thing?

 

Jonathan

[Corbs]

Only if you don't mind about being accurate or not.

 

EDIT: sorry, just re-read that and it was a bit flippant. What I really mean is, you must feel more liberated by not having to be a slave to the evidence and having more freedom to guess at what looks right? No-one can pull you up on not being accurate that way?

Edited February 23, 2015 by Corbs

[chris p bacon]

Having been once called 'Marmite Man' by the late, great Shaky, I take that as a compliment. 

 

I also can't see how having someone else build the trackwork makes one 'less of a modeller'; so, in answer to your question you're definitely not. Well, no more or 'less of a modeller' than I am, because Norman Solomon made my scenic-side trackwork. Did you wire Norman Saunder's work? I only ask this because if anything goes wrong, one needs to know how to fix it. That's why I did the wiring on Norman's track (though I had to call the great man back after I'd mangled a point motor, only to find that I could have fixed it myself; in moments! Learning can have a high price).

 

Why should not being able to build a loco mean that you're not being taken seriously, by some? I hope that's never come across in my writing. I admit, it's been a bit galling down the years to find that when one scratch-builds a loco, almost immediately a kit comes out; then, when one builds a kit, there's almost instantly a wonderful RTR equivalent made available. In this feeling, I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

And, anyway, I'm puzzled by the notion that because I choose to make my locos and rolling stock in the main, and discuss the various methods with others who also do the same, I'm considered 'elitist' by some. Why do you think that I (and many, many more-able others) have been invited down the years to give demonstrations, talks, conduct seminars, make DVDs, act as a tutor, write articles, etc, etc, etc, on making models? Because we do make models, and hope that we can pass on our 'skills' and methodology to others, so that they, too, might be able to make things for themselves; but only if they're prepared to have a go. Yes, there are some who'll always fail, no matter how well they're shown, how brilliant the teacher (definitely not me) and how good the materials they're given. Such folk should never be denied the right to enjoy railway modelling, either through commissioning others to do work for them and/or using the excellence of today's RTR/RTP products. However, if they consider those who can do things for themselves 'elitist', then perhaps are they guilty of a bit of jealousy? 

 

In all honesty, I'm considering ceasing posting on this thread. It's definitely not my property, so others can keep it going if they wish. I have so many projects on the go - making models, writing books and so on, I wonder sometimes is it worth it? Please don't think I'm hoping for a mass of 'Oh please keep it going' posts, but if by advocating the actual making of things (not just locos), I'm considered part of some mythical elite, then I'd better disappear. Unless readers want me to explain how to commission things, how to write cheques, how to open boxes, how to put stuff on the track/put in place RTP buildings and turn a knob. Cynical, me?

 

As I've said, I've been deeply fortunate to have worked with some extremely talented modellers down the years and to have learned much mutually. But, anything we've achieved has been through our own efforts in the main. If that's elitist, so be it!

Thanks for the reply Tony, I'll duck out as I don't think I explained myself very well and the digger does a better job of holes than I do

 

Wiring -  yes down to me......I know when it's correct as the smoke clears quickly....

[Cleefy]

In all honesty, I'm considering ceasing posting on this thread. It's definitely not my property, so others can keep it going if they wish. I have so many projects on the go - making models, writing books and so on, I wonder sometimes is it worth it? Please don't think I'm hoping for a mass of 'Oh please keep it going' posts, but if by advocating the actual making of things (not just locos), I'm considered part of some mythical elite, then I'd better disappear. Unless readers want me to explain how to commission things, how to write cheques, how to open boxes, how to put stuff on the track/put in place RTP buildings and turn a knob. Cynical, me?

 

Maybe it's something as simple as the placing of the thread in this part of the forum? RMWeb has separate sections for kit building, layout building and - if I dare mention the P word - photography et al that people can read/ignore as they wish. I'm wondering if having this thread here has lead to some thinking it's being promoted as some sort of gold-plated standard, although I realise that's absolutely not the intention.

 

I'm also not suggesting that after more than two years and 160 pages the mods split it out into separate threads. What I like about this thread is that it features all of the interests and projects (well, the train set related ones at least) of an individual and as such forms a coherent whole. You may not be its owner, Tony, but you are definitely its glue!

 

Aside from that, I'm as baffled as you are as to where the accusations of elitism come from. Your content, like the majority on this forum, comes across not as "look at what I've done" but as "look at what it's possible to do".

 

Finally, as I'm aware of your aversion to forum aliases, I'll sign off with my real name although I suspect it might prompt a response of "Oh gawd, not another one!"

 

Phil

[Richard_A]

I also cannot understand where the elitism tag has come from! I for one enjoy this thread very much and it would be a shame for the op to cease posting. Another of my favourite posters on here the penguin of doom also quit his thread due to some bizarre behaviour of forum members, i hope this doesn't become an ongoing trend as i believe the forum would suffer from the actions of some keyboard warriors who only seem to want to pull people apart.

[Clive Mortimore]

There are modellers who in there own areas of expertise should be considered the elite of the hobby, this happens in all walks of life, the best are the elite. We should have no problems with this.

 

Being better at an aspect of modelling does not make you any more of a railway modeller than anyone else. In the past on this thread I have stated what I have scratchbuilt, I have had FUN doing so. I hope the chap and his son with their 6x4 oval of track running their RTR Flying Scotsman with its two coaches are having as much FUN as me. If people are getting something positive from being railway modellers then we are equal.

 

I enjoy seeing well made models done by other people, I learn from other modellers, and in return I try to pass on my knowledge. Let us all continue to share on this thread and other parts of the forum. :sungum:

[Mallard60022]

Great comments in the last few posts and I do think this could just go back to being a 'Wright Writes' again, whereby TW has the opportunity to show us stuff but without reply. I'd be happy with that.

So, I'm still going to show some stuff elsewhere as I don't care if I'm not a great modeller. My attitude is that some folk may appreciate the fact that I show simple stuff that they have not dared do before. It will probably only be parts of kit builds and then mainly coaches. There are many, many people on here that build coaches to an A* standard. However, there are some that have not yet tried doing even a plastic one (and sometimes they are actually more difficult to get to look good than a brass kit), so if I show 'some basic moves and shakes' then so be it.

Oh yes, I though an elite was a West Yorkshire term for a lamp or similar.........

Now I'm off to count 4mm hinges........please be gentle with me.

P

Edited February 24, 2015 by Mallard60022

[coachmann]

Mallard has touched on a point there. Plastic coaches and kits are often harder to get a decent model out of than metal coaches. The 4- wheel vans I built a few years ago are already suffering self-destruct of fragile plastic undergear. Modellers are used to plastic kits being inexpensive, which probably puts manufacturers off producing plastic bodies on etched underframes at a higher price. Give me something I can solder every time!

[MJI]

Elitism hmm

 

More like quality to aim for.

 

Apart from wagons, most of what I need loco and coach is available RTR, but I do bash a few things, like produce non RTR coaches, renumber locos to ones I need.

 

So I have about 75% wagons are kits, locos in use from kits 2.

 

My DMUs are not OOB, but all are repainted except one due to Lima incompetence with the suburban one, and I have 5 DMS converted vehicles. Not a patch on some of the excellent work seen on RMWEB, but I did them!

 

I bought a new air brush to try to improve my results, but gave up the drawing pen lining.

 

I am currently working on a particular rake, still after the loco, scouring Ebay for bargains, but I have all the stock for the cut down version, but the stock is under construction, Detailed Airfix air cons (in primer), and a Replica BG I will be flush glazing. And what will I end up with? A train I saw a few times when i was 17 or 18. Same formation and even same loco.

 

Anyway I consider it modelling, not the best which can be done, but the best I can do.

[MJI]

Mallard has touched on a point there. Plastic coaches and kits are often harder to get a decent model out of than metal coaches. The 4- wheel vans I built a few years ago are already suffering self-destruct of fragile plastic undergear. Modellers are used to plastic kits being inexpensive, which probably puts manufacturers off producing plastic bodies on etched underframes at a higher price. Give me something I can solder every time!

 

 

Coaches yes, I have a few Cooper Craft mark 1s, and the bodies do not look as nice as my resided stuff, enough that my Lima Mk 1s will eventually all be resided rather than SE Finecast flush glazed.

 

Wagons, plastic seems fine even my Airfix minerals from 20-30 years ago, except the wheels are poor (still using the Airfix ones)