Wright writes.....

[coachmann]

Whereas your reference to valve gear parts by their actual names is good practice, we should remember that many modellers have no idea which bits those names refer to.  To many, especially the less experienced, the mention of valve gear means those difficult to build bits outside the wheels. 

 

ArthurK

Then they arent modellers. Modellers taking up this hobby learn about the railways and would soon know what valve gear, chimney, done ands safety valves were. I knew what the parts were long before I started to look at models of locos etc. Toy train players could tip 'em out and play with them without ever learning a thing about the real thing.

Edited September 5, 2016 by coachmann

[2ManySpams]

In terms of instructions, I thought those Jim prepares for his connoisseur range were very good. Then I saw these from Finney7. The new guys taking over that range have done a superb job. Certainly adds to the confidence of prospective buyers that they can be seen online before hand and you get a really good measure of exactly what you're letting yourself in for.

 

http://finney7.co.uk/Instructions%20Page.htm

 

Smashing job. Class leading?

[Focalplane]

In terms of instructions, I thought those Jim prepares for his connoisseur range were very good. Then I saw these from Finney7. The new guys taking over that range have done a superb job. Certainly adds to the confidence of prospective buyers that they can be seen online before hand and you get a really good measure of exactly what you're letting yourself in for.

http://finney7.co.uk/Instructions%20Page.htm

Smashing job. Class leading?

Yes, excellent instructions. I am currently building an MOK 14xx kit and Dave Sharp also leads the way with a ring bound A4 book with colour photos. Before spendng any money, I asked Dave if he would send me a PDF, which he did, of the very complex Ivatt 4MT mogul. This gave me the confidence to tackle the simpler 14xx. I will now probably move on to the Ivatt 4MT as well. In my opinion good instructions are a prerequisite to laying out several hundred pounds an a project. Poor instructions, no sale, simple. Edited September 5, 2016 by Focalplane

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[jjb1970]

The key with feedback is how it is delivered I think. I'll admit some of my comments in this thread are a little direct but provided feedback is offered in a positive and constructive way then people should take it onboard. And most do, honest feedback whether positive or negative is an important part of product improvement and development and especially with subjective things such as instructions. I'll admit that if people just dismiss products with asinine throwaway comments of the "its **** kind" then manufacturers can hardly be expected to offer a considered response but if people make the effort to offer a balanced critique then a sensible person will pay attention.

On vocabulary, I think it is very easy to fall into using specialised words that will not be understood by the intended audience. Most enthusiasts will have a decent understanding of some parts of railway and locomotive vocabulary but we've had an example in this thread of where instructions using words which make perfect sense to an engineer were difficult for a highly skilled kit builder. I'm guessing that if I wanted to I could baffle most people on the board by throwing all sorts of highly specialised technical words into posts but it would add nothing to anything other than perhaps inflating my own ego at the expense of making me look like a complete you know what. And I think that'd be true for many of the posters in this thread who clearly have a lot of specialised technical and operational knowledge. Using words that the listener will understand is an essential part of communication.

Edited September 5, 2016 by jjb1970

[ArthurK]

Then they arent modellers. Modellers taking up this hobby learn about the railways and would soon know what valve gear, chimney, done ands safety valves were. I knew what the parts were long before I started to look at models of locos etc. Toy train players could tip 'em out and play with them without ever learning a thing about the real thing.

Please give me a precise definition of a modeller.

 

ArthurK

[thegreenhowards]

I am close to finishing my Kirk triplet and I'm struggling with the roof details. Can I request some advice from the assembled experts. The Kirk instructions show torpedo vents with two rectangular 'LNER Catering' type vents roughly as shown in the attached photo. Whereas other sources show just the two rectangular vents spaced slightly further apart. Photos that I've found (eg the Model Rail April 2006 article) seem to show both types of vents. From a small sample of photos, I guess that the torpedo vents are correct for the 1924 sets, while the wider spaced rectangular vents are correct for the 1928 sets. Can anyone confirm or correct this interpretation? Also are these rectangular vents the same as those available on the Mike Trice shapeways shop?

 

Many thanks

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

Whereas your reference to valve gear parts by their actual names is good practice, we should remember that many modellers have no idea which bits those names refer to.  To many, especially the less experienced, the mention of valve gear means those difficult to build bits outside the wheels. 

 

ArthurK

Thanks Arthur,

 

I'm convinced that the GWR is very popular with modellers because almost all its locomotives, both large and small, had inside valve gear. The exceptions were, if my memory serves, the De Glenn Atlantics and the big Hawksworth panniers. 

 

My reference for using the accepted nomenclature for valve gear parts is that it's only by getting to know what the parts are called that anyone can begin to erect a set of motion; at least that's my belief. Otherwise, wouldn't there be total bafflement when the instructions state 'attach the top end of the combination lever by a soldered or riveted pivot to the front end of the radius rod'? Part of becoming a modeller is learning as much about the thing you're modelling as actually making it. 

 

Which brings me on to your question of Larry as to what is a modeller? I'll qualify it by adding 'railway' modeller and give you my take on it. This evening, quite unexpectedly, a dad brought his 12 year old son around, rang the doorbell and asked if I were 'the railway man' (Little Bytham is very small)? 'If you are, would you mind seeing if you can fix Harvey's (the son) Pendolino please, because it went so fast that it left the track and plummeted to the floor?' 'We'll pay you.' 

 

I investigated, and a bogie had broken, one part carrying an axle end having snapped off. Whatever the plastic Hornby uses, it is extremely intolerant of any glue. So, I roughed up the two parts' inside faces and stuck a piece of brass shim across the break, fitting the wheels back in afterwards. Moments later, a Pendolino was flying round LB - a first! At the risk of sounding arrogant, I would say that it took an experienced modeller to fix the unit. But isn't the lad a modeller, too? He's got a trainset on a board supported on legs, he's creating scenery and building basic card kits. He also now wants to learn how to solder to fix droppers to get around the voltage drop caused by the fishplates not conducting electricity properly. My fee? His dad's a tree surgeon and we have an out-of-control flowering cherry. So, a discount for attending to it. Isn't horse-trading great? It looks like I have another pupil as well. 

 

Like most definitions, it's not one size fits all. Is the person who has just bought his/her first trainset and assembled it on the floor a modeller, even if he''s (she's) done nothing more than fixing set-track together? Even if he/she has made nothing? I'd say they're just starting on the 'modelling' path. 

 

To me, the most all-round definition of a railway modeller is someone who makes things for themselves. This can be from the most humble card kit to scratch-building a large express passenger locomotive. As long as they're prepared to have a go, then they're a modeller in my book. Those who get others to do their railway modelling for them presents me with a grey area, though if they actually make things for their layout themselves then they also qualify. Certainly, those who modify RTR items are certainly modellers. 

 

Obviously, as skills are acquired and experience gained, then a hierarchy develops. Speaking personally, I'd put myself firmly in the middle (this is not false modesty, I've photographed the likes of Geoff Holt's and David Jenkinson's work). What shouldn't happen is any form of snobbery or elitism developing. Even the finest modellers had to begin somewhere. 

 

Anyway, to close. Today, I sent the last cheque to Gerald Scarborough's widow for the final item sold by Mo and me from her modelling husband's collection. Though I've done this before, may I thank all those who've bought items? A friend still has a few kit-built locos to sell, and the final figure is well in excess of £7,000 and counting. Not a lot one might say for a lifetime's work (though much was old RTR) but a lot more than the figures offered by dealers. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Tony Wright

[chris p bacon]

Then they arent modellers. Modellers taking up this hobby learn about the railways and would soon know what valve gear, chimney, done ands safety valves were. I knew what the parts were long before I started to look at models of locos etc. Toy train players could tip 'em out and play with them without ever learning a thing about the real thing.

Some of us were born after the age of steam and grew up in the diesel era,  does that mean that anyone modelling the period after the late 60's isn't a modeller because they have no idea what a reversing lever is?

[AndyID]

Then they arent modellers. Modellers taking up this hobby learn about the railways and would soon know what valve gear, chimney, done ands safety valves were. I knew what the parts were long before I started to look at models of locos etc. Toy train players could tip 'em out and play with them without ever learning a thing about the real thing.

 

Why do you find it necessary to put people in boxes by using pejorative labels like "toy train players"?

[grahame]

Then they arent modellers. Modellers taking up this hobby learn about the railways and would soon know what valve gear, chimney, done ands safety valves were. I knew what the parts were long before I started to look at models of locos etc. Toy train players could tip 'em out and play with them without ever learning a thing about the real thing.

I don't know what are where all those parts Tony mentioned are, particularly not having a great interest in steam trains. I content myself with building more modern traction and preferably electric stock. Does that mean I'm not a railway modeller?

 

G.

[Flood]

Whereas your reference to valve gear parts by their actual names is good practice, we should remember that many modellers have no idea which bits those names refer to.  To many, especially the less experienced, the mention of valve gear means those difficult to build bits outside the wheels. 

 

ArthurK

 

 

Then they arent modellers. Modellers taking up this hobby learn about the railways and would soon know what valve gear, chimney, done ands safety valves were. I knew what the parts were long before I started to look at models of locos etc. Toy train players could tip 'em out and play with them without ever learning a thing about the real thing.

 

As I don't model the steam era I have absolutely no need to know the parts of a steam locos valve gear.

 

I could ask the question "how many modellers know what an AC2E is?" Most would not care but you cannot make an accurate model of service 841S71 without either modifying some Airfix/Mainline AC2D, building Southern Pride kits or buying Hornby's awful model.

 

Graham

Edited September 6, 2016 by Flood

[Headstock]

Why do you find it necessary to put people in boxes by using pejorative labels like "toy train players"?

 

If you put people in a box, does that make you a toy people player?

[Herbert Nigel]

I thought that was an undertaker, but I may be wrong.

[Headstock]

Technically yes, according to the instructions.

[Killybegs]

Despite being a 'Railway enthusiast', I knew very little about the workings of a steam locomotive until I started building them in 4mm (and I am still learning!).

 

Like Tony, I also live in a small community and get model railway related requests for help from time to time. One such query ended up with me building this http://www.johndarch.com/Model%20Railways/Bruckless/Bruckless1.html . The most difficult repairs are those where someone else has 'had a go at it' first.

 

Finally, I am a sucker for reading instructions but, talking to friends, I think I may be in a minority.

[Tony Wright]

Despite being a 'Railway enthusiast', I knew very little about the workings of a steam locomotive until I started building them in 4mm (and I am still learning!).

 

Like Tony, I also live in a small community and get model railway related requests for help from time to time. One such query ended up with me building this http://www.johndarch.com/Model%20Railways/Bruckless/Bruckless1.html . The most difficult repairs are those where someone else has 'had a go at it' first.

 

Finally, I am a sucker for reading instructions but, talking to friends, I think I may be in a minority.

Thanks for posting those pictures of your late friend's layout, John. Your work looks very impressive. Did you modify/weather the locos as well? 

 

With regard to learning what the names of the parts are of any model one is building (from what ever period/era), it must make the building of it easier. Though it's not necessary to know exactly how a steam loco works, an idea of what goes where and what does what must assist. The same must be so for diesel/electric models. Reading previous posts, I have no idea what some are talking about; however, if I were to build a DMU/EMU or locomotive, I'd want to find out what and where the various parts were and went.

 

This sort of thing is especially true when doing historical research. For my Deltic book (with help, admittedly) I was able to date pictures from observing what had been added or subtracted to/from the class throughout its life, or livery changes, namings, etc. If one were wishing to build an accurate model for a timescale, then such clarification is essential. 

 

I've been approached by a third party to see if I'd offer assistance in the development of a new O Gauge model. Just (off the top of my head) relating the various changes through the life of the class caused a look of bewilderment at times. However, such is the market-expectation these days (despite moanings of over-pricing), that if details are wrong for a given period, then the snipers will have their weapons cocked.  

[Killybegs]

Thanks for posting those pictures of your late friend's layout, John. Your work looks very impressive. Did you modify/weather the locos as well? 

 

  

 

Peter either bought pre weathered stock or had them done professionally. My involvement was designing a layout to meet his requirements then laying and wiring track, TOU's, etc., setting up the DCC and programming the decoders. This meant doing a self taught crash course in DCC! The scenic side came last and, sadly, was never finished.

 

I hadn't met Peter before he approached me requesting my help but we became good friends over the course of the build.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Killybegs

[APOLLO]

I still remember my first day as a railway modeler, Christmas 1961. A 4' x 3' Ply board and a Tri-ang TT "Surburban" train set, Jinty, 2 coaches and an oval of type 1 (brown) track, together with a Hornby Dublo "Marshall 2" controller, a Tri-ang Station Building and a Peco "Wonderfull Wagon" kit from my sister. All set up and running by 6.00 am !!!

 

The Peco kit had me a little flummoxed, plastic pins on the under frame protruded through holes in the metal body and both had to be fixed together by melting the plastic pin with a soldering iron - so I pestered dad. Then I saw two spare outputs on the controller marked "for lights" - so off the bike came the headlamp and bulb (1.5V) and we soldered two leads to the bulb, fitted it inside the station building and connected up. The bulb surprisingly didn't burn out, but it was very bright and hot and melted a hole in the base of the building !!.  Another lesson learned quickly. Then it was down to the shed for a bit of wood for a station platform.

 

Electrics, soldering & woodwork learned in under 1 hour, age 9 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Soldering is indeed an art that I have never proceeded very far with since 1959. I'm OK with wires, switch contacts etc but not joining sheet metal parts. As part of my gas technician apprenticeship I did City & Guilds intermediate gas fitting. Soldering copper and lead pipes was fairly easy, but "wiping" a lead water joint was an art I could never master. Its all about "feel" and getting the solder temperature correct all around the work piece, get it wrong and it all runs, sometimes down your wrist so a bucket of cold water was always nearby in the training school workshop !!

 

Brit15

[jjb1970]

I find it amusing when "toy" is used as a pejorative term with respect to models as to me calling a model train a toy is an accurate way of describing it. Certainly to people outside the hobby they're all toys whether it is a basic trainset or the finest of finescale models.

[MikeTrice]

I am close to finishing my Kirk triplet and I'm struggling with the roof details. Can I request some advice from the assembled experts.

 

Andy

Does this thread help? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74417-building-two-comet-triplets/

[johnarcher]

I find it amusing when "toy" is used as a pejorative term with respect to models as to me calling a model train a toy is an accurate way of describing it. Certainly to people outside the hobby they're all toys whether it is a basic trainset or the finest of finescale models.

That may be true of many people outside the hobby, but I have met a good few that do understand there's a difference - why else are there two different words?

[jjb1970]

If I look at my models they give ne a huge amount of pleasure but they serve no useful purpose beyond that personal, emotional reaction. I could live without them and they're an indulgence that I love precisely because they are purely about fun. To me toy is an apt description.

[Jol Wilkinson]

If I look at my models they give ne a huge amount of pleasure but they serve no useful purpose beyond that personal, emotional reaction. I could live without them and they're an indulgence that I love precisely because they are purely about fun. To me toy is an apt description.

Most of the definitions of noun "toy" that I can find refer to an object for a child to play with (the others are about quite different meanings of the word).

 

My hobby is model making and miniature railway models are my preferred area of interest. To me they are not toys, although others may prefer to call them that, through ignorance or in a "humorous" attempt to belittle my hobby.

[johnarcher]

When we have the two words why use just one, covering things as different as (for instance) Tony Reynalds building a locomotive and a six-year old with a circle of track on the floor?