Wright writes.....

[Captain Kernow]

He said that he didn't look after the "up" lines which were someone else's responsibility.

 

I wonder what country's Rules & Regulations their operations are based on, then?

[APOLLO]

This brought to mind another well known (and really very good) winner "best of show" layout, where I noticed that a bogie had come off and pointed it out to one of the operators. He said that he didn't look after the "up" lines which were someone else's responsibility.

Fortunately the train managed to complete it's circuit of the layout without further derailment and eventually came round to the fiddle yard, where the individual who was responsible leaned across to rectify the errant bogie; unfortunately in doing so his rather "out of scale" paunch derailed two complete trains in the "down" lines nearest to him (but which, of course, were not his responsibility!).....

The joys of teamwork!

(But it still won best in show).

 

Tony 

 

Sounds like The Penn Central in 1974. The mighty Pennsylvania and New York Central railroads merged to form Penn Central, which soon went bust (the largest corporate bankruptcy in history back then). This video was the Penn central at its nadir. Worth watching for the human aspect of what railroaders had to put up with back then in the richest country in the world. It got sorted, Conrail was formed, which was ultimately made profitable and privatized in 1987 and the remaining railroads (seem) to be in very good shape these days.

 

This movie was produced in 1974 by the Penn Central, and used to get Federal funding to keep the wheels rolling.

 

Who dares model what goes on in this video ? - reality back then.

 

 

Edited to add - This was Sheffield back in 1962 - far better maintained !!!!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duoq7esgf5s

 

Brit15

Edited January 28, 2017 by APOLLO

[Mallard60022]

A few 'pages' back, Tony mentioned some Carriage Destination Boards from Ian Wilson at Pacific Models. I hope TW does not mind but I must just mention that I had a quick look at the PM site to remind me of what was what and then, about a week ago, I contacted Ian about a particular set I'd like to have. I had not scanned his 7mm sets where the ones I wanted were available. However, I need(ed) 4mm versions and I have to mention that my need was very 'niche' indeed. Within a week he had responded, offered to produce a 4mm set, given me a very, very acceptable quote and today I have received the pack. Superb quality and what great service.  OK this isn't a shopping review site but I just want to say a public thanks and maybe readers could benefit from the PM range as well.

Maybe one day I will actually be able to post a pic of my 'train' on my layout, carrying said boards?

Sincerely

Phil

[Willie Whizz]

...

 

Worth watching for the human aspect of what railroaders had to put up with back then ...

 

...

 

Edited to add - This was Sheffield back in 1962 - far better maintained !!!!!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duoq7esgf5s

 

Brit15

 

Some fascinating detail of old and new (for the 1960s) goods yard working in that "Sheffield" video, Apollo.  Thanks for posting it.  I particularly liked those "Izal"-branded Palvans - were they really that smart shade of dark green?  Never seen any picture or reference to such before; I wonder where they ran to, and between what years?  A short rake of those would make a really distinctive and out-of-the -ordinary model I think.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[polybear]

As I've said previously, I wish I'd gone down the EM path in my 4mm modelling, because I firmly believe it gives the best compromise; that being a far-more-accurate gauge and (usually) good running.

 

An ex-chairman of the Emgs admitted to me that, if he were starting again now, he'd model in 00. Why? Simply because of the stratospheric improvements in accuracy, detail and quality of locos and stock compared to just a few years ago.

Best Regards,

Brian

[Enterprisingwestern]

Some fascinating detail of old and new (for the 1960s) goods yard working in that "Sheffield" video, Apollo.  Thanks for posting it.  I particularly liked those "Izal"-branded Palvans - were they really that smart shade of dark green?  Never seen any picture or reference to such before; I wonder where they ran to, and between what years?  A short rake of those would make a really distinctive and out-of-the -ordinary model I think.

 

They ran from the Izal factory at Thorncliffe, basically to wherever they were required.

 

Mike.

[coachmann]

An ex-chairman of the Emgs admitted to me that, if he were starting again now, he'd model in 00. Why? Simply because of the stratospheric improvements in accuracy, detail and quality of locos and stock compared to just a few years ago.

Best Regards,

Brian

Totally illogical. Because of the "the stratospheric improvements in accuracy, detail and quality of locos and stock", he would now adopt 00?  

[t-b-g]

Totally illogical. Because of the "the stratospheric improvements in accuracy, detail and quality of locos and stock", he would now adopt 00?  

 

Time was when 00 meant steam roller wheels, dreadful track and if you wanted to make a RTR model look half decent, you had to do a major rebuild, including new wheels. So it was just as easy, in most cases, to re-wheel to EM.

 

Nowadays, 00 track looks so much better, as Little Bytham proves. To me it looks even better than the EM on Kingstorre because it has little things like chairs. Modern RTR stuff has improved beyond all recognition and also has so much below footplate detail that might be in the way of EM wheels. the improvement in appearance from going EM 35 years ago to going EM now has narrowed considerably.

 

I say that as a confirmed EM man! If my modelling was based around RTR items, I would be seriously considering saving all the time and effort converting stock and putting more effort into track and scenery. It is not the first time that I have heard those sorts of views expressed, so he is not alone.

 

I actually use virtually no RTR so my 4mm modelling will continue in EM but as a set of standards it seems to be under a bit of pressure as kit and scratchbuilding falls by the wayside in favour of more RTR, (as seems to be the case). It takes a deal of courage to start dismantling your latest £160 purchase to find out that it has a non standard axle size! The supply of easy to use self quartering wheels at sensible prices isn't fantastic either, which can put some people off.

[pete55]

Time was when 00 meant steam roller wheels, dreadful track and if you wanted to make a RTR model look half decent, you had to do a major rebuild, including new wheels. So it was just as easy, in most cases, to re-wheel to EM.

 

Nowadays, 00 track looks so much better, as Little Bytham proves. To me it looks even better than the EM on Kingstorre because it has little things like chairs. Modern RTR stuff has improved beyond all recognition and also has so much below footplate detail that might be in the way of EM wheels. the improvement in appearance from going EM 35 years ago to going EM now has narrowed considerably.

 

I say that as a confirmed EM man! If my modelling was based around RTR items, I would be seriously considering saving all the time and effort converting stock and putting more effort into track and scenery. It is not the first time that I have heard those sorts of views expressed, so he is not alone.

 

I actually use virtually no RTR so my 4mm modelling will continue in EM but as a set of standards it seems to be under a bit of pressure as kit and scratchbuilding falls by the wayside in favour of more RTR, (as seems to be the case). It takes a deal of courage to start dismantling your latest £160 purchase to find out that it has a non standard axle size! The supply of easy to use self quartering wheels at sensible prices isn't fantastic either, which can put some people off.

 

As another confirmed EM man, I can only agree with t-b-g about the rise in RTR quality and as much as I encourage folk to dismantle their shiny new purchases for conversion, I can see the terror in their eyes at times when I have one in pieces in front of them!

I was in my local model shop last Tuesday, and was handed a yard, or was it a metre, of Peco's new 00 bullhead track. Apart from the thicker depth sleepers in comparison to SMP or the  original C&L track, it looks another quantum leap for 00 modellers.  Ought to look as good as SMP or C&L when ballasted  and weathered.

Certainly makes you think!

Edited January 29, 2017 by pete55

[polybear]

Also, whilst it may be pretty straightforward to convert diesel/electric locos, pulling apart the valvegear on an expensive new RTR large outside cylinder steam loco during a conversion must take some thinking about

I recall seeing Dewsbury Midland at the St.Albans exhibition some years ago and looking at the info sheet to see if it was EM or P4   The combination of layout height plus trackplan & positioning of buildings/scenic items really helped to disguise the fact that it was 00.

Brian

[gr.king]

 pulling apart the valvegear on an expensive new RTR large outside cylinder steam loco during a conversion must take some thinking about

 

Well I don't consider myself a mechanical genius by any stretch of the imagination, but I find that such jobs can be done. Care, thought and taking your time are the key factors for success while you are still getting used to that sort of work.

[Mallard60022]

At my stage of existance time is precious. So, I am happy to model in EM with diesels as they are easy to convert and I'll happily build points and convert some RTR stock. I may well buy in some EM steam loco's of good quality (e.g. Barry O had an EM Brit for sale recently for a very, very tempting price.....I should have bought it). Any stock kits I build are easy to do in EM (I like using Comet's sprung bogie system in EM but CBA in OO).

I would also only consider extending or modifying my existing EM shunting Yard and Depot (approx 16' x 3'). I couldn't contemplate a main line EM project the size of my OO Seaton Junction representation in my loft. The latter won't be seen in public (except on here) and so I'm happy to use Peco C75 and try to make it look a bit more 'realistic' by careful ballasting and weathering. 

In reality I shall probably end up selling (or donating the EM layout and stock to some worthy group/person) and then just play trains with my loft layout as I can't see it ever being totally completed. I will have it working this year, but the scenics will 'just evolve'.  Like so many people, I think I have enjoyed the researching and planning of Seaton J'n and the actual building of the thing happens in fits and starts depending upon my state of health and mind.

I must mention here the kindness of friends in helping with many of those fits and starts. What stars they are and they keep me sane.

Phil

Edited January 29, 2017 by Mallard60022

[grob1234]

Well I don't consider myself a mechanical genius by any stretch of the imagination, but I find that such jobs can be done. Care, thought and taking your time are the key factors for success while you are still getting used to that sort of work.

I also wouldn't start by pulling apart your pride of joy RTR pacific either! Start with a tank loco and mess about with that first.

[Fat Controller]

They ran from the Izal factory at Thorncliffe, basically to wherever they were required.

 

Mike.

They were built in 1960; Paul Bartlett's site suggested that they didn't stay in Izal traffic for long, before moving on to other traffic, including Ford parts from Dagenham.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

This brought to mind another well known (and really very good) winner "best of show" layout, where I noticed that a bogie had come off and pointed it out to one of the operators. He said that he didn't look after the "up" lines which were someone else's responsibility.

Fortunately the train managed to complete it's circuit of the layout without further derailment and eventually came round to the fiddle yard, where the individual who was responsible leaned across to rectify the errant bogie; unfortunately in doing so his rather "out of scale" paunch derailed two complete trains in the "down" lines nearest to him (but which, of course, were not his responsibility!).....

The joys of teamwork!

(But it still won best in show).

 

Tony

 

Hi Tony et al, more thought provoking and intelligent comments from those here-its like a breath of fresh air. In the distant and not so distant past when Ive operated trains and layouts at exhibition & open days for garden railways (inc live steam in both environs) it's been all hands to the pump so as to put on a realistic as possible show for the punters. 1) to keep the paying public entertained 2) a level of professionalism and pride-perhaps as part of our enjoyment in a job well done and to demonstrate that running trains as prototypically as possible can be fun whilst being educational/historically accurate-fielding any questions as an offshoot of such. It never dawned on us that we should encompass unionisation and demarcation!! Ha Ha! Although I was a RMT member at the time!

I wonder what country's Rules & Regulations their operations are based on, then?

Indeed ! Ha Ha!

An ex-chairman of the Emgs admitted to me that, if he were starting again now, he'd model in 00. Why? Simply because of the stratospheric improvements in accuracy, detail and quality of locos and stock compared to just a few years ago.

Best Regards,

Brian

Thats before it dawned on those who wish to use said engines in anger on a large layout with scale length trains that such would need a replacement (brass & NS chassis) chassis for longevity & reliability?

Time was when 00 meant steam roller wheels, dreadful track and if you wanted to make a RTR model look half decent, you had to do a major rebuild, including new wheels. So it was just as easy, in most cases, to re-wheel to EM.

 

Nowadays, 00 track looks so much better, as Little Bytham proves. To me it looks even better than the EM on Kingstorre because it has little things like chairs. Modern RTR stuff has improved beyond all recognition and also has so much below footplate detail that might be in the way of EM wheels. the improvement in appearance from going EM 35 years ago to going EM now has narrowed considerably.

 

I say that as a confirmed EM man! If my modelling was based around RTR items, I would be seriously considering saving all the time and effort converting stock and putting more effort into track and scenery. It is not the first time that I have heard those sorts of views expressed, so he is not alone.

 

I actually use virtually no RTR so my 4mm modelling will continue in EM but as a set of standards it seems to be under a bit of pressure as kit and scratchbuilding falls by the wayside in favour of more RTR, (as seems to be the case). It takes a deal of courage to start dismantling your latest £160 purchase to find out that it has a non standard axle size! The supply of easy to use self quartering wheels at sensible prices isn't fantastic either, which can put some people off.

Indeed RTR in 2mm & 4mm looks superb-most of the time-these days and there is a psychological barrier for many re modifying a considered purchase-even more so in 7mm or SM32......but its all in the head and not life or death....a Hercules rapid decent approach into Kandahar, in fog, under enemy fire is a bad day at the office...

As another confirmed EM man, I can only agree with t-b-g about the rise in RTR quality and as much as I encourage folk to dismantle their shiny new purchases for conversion, I can see the terror in their eyes at times when I have one in pieces in front of them!

I was in my local model shop last Tuesday, and was handed a yard, or was it a metre, of Peco's new 00 bullhead track. Apart from the thicker depth sleepers in comparison to SMP or the original C&L track, it looks another quantum leap for 00 modellers. Ought to look as good as SMP or C&L when ballasted and weathered.

Certainly makes you think!

Agreed, Ive seen a lot of superb layouts that have used-undisguised-Peco HO/00 track front of house, which frankly jars the (my) eye and mind these days, the new Peco bullhead (although if I were still modelling OO I would use SMP track and Tillig pointwork prior to Peco's intro of BH) track should leapfrog OO forward and help produce some fine layouts.

 

I can feel a BUT coming on re RTR vs Kit/Scratch Building and our hobby, its future;-

 

* Longevity of chassis & motors in RTR;

* Loss of Mashima et al;

* Price of RTR relative to dispossable income, poor savings interest rates, cost of foods increasing (ie some fruit & veg up by 25%), inflation creeping up and the J.A.M generation;

* In the UK, retail Reps for model manufacturers, are stating that 6 model shops a month are closing down;

* Tacit knowledge in model making;

* Loss of interest in creative hobbies (although that maybe making a U turn as people look for better quality of life past times);

* Mainstream mags dont appear to be covering the 'how to' aspect of the hobby as they once were, ie indepth/detail and tacit knowledge is being eroded or lost (I have had it said to me that 'folk dont have the time to read constructional articles anymore, magazines in fact'. Last time I looked there was still 24 hours in the day and that has remained a constant for millenia, what I have noted is that machines humanity et al have developed so as to save time and effort are rapidly becoming our masters. There is also a level of brainwashing too as vast sections of the populus gaze, mesmerised into 'black-mirrors' (all things in balance I say).

 

These things are going to affect our hobby RTR being the number one issue-perhaps we are at the zenith?? There are much more detailed aspects to this matter, but I have taken up enough of everyones time already.

 

Atvb to all,

 

CME

Edited January 29, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[10800]

Hi Tony

 

I'm completely with you on the desirability of good running, especially on a large layout with big trains running at high speed.  With all your locos and stock in 00, and the wish to recreate your trainspotting days, why worry too much about the gauge?  We're just kids playing trains in the end.  So you do what is right for you.

 

Re6/6 and myself modelled in P4 before we made the decision (bonkers or what) to build a model of the Ouse Valley viaduct and, for good measure, Balcombe station on the other side of a round-roundy.  This will be a means of watching trains go by on the Brighton main line - mainly EMUs in our case, but also correctly formed steam-hauled boat trains and excursions eventually.

 

So we hope to add to the existing collection of large P4 layouts in due course after a bit of a hiatus last year.  As a taster here are a couple of video sequences of a work-in-progress exhibiting of the viaduct at Crawley last April.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/43107-ouse-viaduct/

 

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by 10800

[westerner]

I hate to say it when I saw it at Crawley the running was not over clever, and I did see it several times over both days. On almost every circuit something either de-railed or coaches parted company. It could have been the room it was in or that it was still in build

[10800]

I hate to say it when I saw it at Crawley the running was not over clever, and I did see it several times over both days. On almost every circuit something either de-railed or coaches parted company. It could have been the room it was in or that it was still in build

 

 

Fair enough, but all the track apart from the fiddle yards was temporary, some of it even put down during the first morning of the show.  It was a very valuable learning experience.

[Willie Whizz]

Fair enough, but all the track apart from the fiddle yards was temporary, some of it even put down during the first morning of the show.  It was a very valuable learning experience.

 

I'm sorry to say this ... and I haven't seen this particular layout ... but as a point of principle surely an exhibition for which the Public has paid their hard-earned cash to enter is not, perhaps, the appropriate place for layout builders to be getting their 'valuable learning experience'.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[Captain Kernow]

I'm sorry to say this ... and I haven't seen this particular layout ... but as a point of principle surely an exhibition for which the Public has paid their hard-earned cash to enter is not, perhaps, the appropriate place for layout builders to be getting their 'valuable learning experience'.

As a friend and (very) occasional helper, it's worth mentioning that there was a lot more to that situation than meets the eye on this thread so far. I'd best leave it to Rod and John to elaborate, should they wish to.

[micklner]

Shame the latest above videos stop when the train is entering a curve, virtually all P4 seems to be missing curves . It would be good to see it going round the bend so to speak .

[CF MRC]

Will be quite a challenge to paint the brickwork to match the prototype. A very impressive structure. Quite difficult to achieve it, but some sort of backscene would set off the trains very well; or you could always fill in a load of scenery in the middle!

 

Tim

[10800]

I'm sorry to say this ... and I haven't seen this particular layout ... but as a point of principle surely an exhibition for which the Public has paid their hard-earned cash to enter is not, perhaps, the appropriate place for layout builders to be getting their 'valuable learning experience'.

 

 

Ordinarily I would entirely agree.  On this occasion in the circumstances of not having progressed as far as we would have liked (there's only two of us doing this), our choice was either to pull out or to improvise and develop another aspect of exhibiting and entertaining the public.  As it turned out the approach we used attracted quite a bit of positive feedback.  I would also say that any exhibition is a learning experience although probably not in such an extreme way!

[johndon]

Shame the latest above videos stop when the train is entering a curve, virtually all P4 seems to be missing curves . It would be good to see it going round the bend so to speak .

 

 

Here's a video of a couple of P4 HSTs most certainly going round the bend and at a fair lick as well on Calcutta Sidings.  As far as I know, the power cars and coaches have had simple wheel swaps, there is no additional suspension or compensation on any of the rolling stock.

 

 

John

Edited January 30, 2017 by johndon

[10800]

Shame the latest above videos stop when the train is entering a curve, virtually all P4 seems to be missing curves . It would be good to see it going round the bend so to speak .

 

 

I thought that would come up lol

 

It will be something like this then