Wright writes.....

[grob1234]

Khris,

 

I hoped I wasn't being defeatist but pragmatic.

 

Yes, you are right that we have many exhibitions (as well as clubs and societies) here in the UK where the groundwork should be happening to expand peoples model making skills. My experience show it doesn't always happen, usually because there is insufficient appetite to do something different/challenge. The excuse often used is that "I couldn't make/paint something as good as the RTR manufacturers). Those of use that make models from kits accept that may well be true, but we might want something that isn't available RTR, have discovered the satisfaction of creating something for yourself, etc. 

 

Over the years I have been an occasional demonstrator, held workshops at a local club, run model making evening classes at a local college and offered the benefit(?) of my experience from behind an exhibition layout or a trade stand for a "small supplier". So I have some experience of how the hobby "operates". You are right in saying what people need is the motivation to have a go. How you provide that motivation is something not often discussed. Focusing on specific problems such as poor instructions and coming up with simple but possibly difficult to implement answers won't move things forward.

 

Perhaps if Railway Modeller or BRM ran a competition for first time kit built locos, modified RTR models, etc. supported by kit building demos at major shows such as Warley or Ally Pally, we might see a bit of change. MRJ have do something like that over the years to promote various aspects of model making (their latest is the Cameo Layout Competition), but that is rather like preaching to the converted.

 

Jol

 

 

Totally agree, Jol.

 

I think the hobby needs a large push to help people get in to kit building. We can't do it alone, or with a thread like this (as popular as it is, in relative terms, only 205 people follow it, most of whom are already builders in some form or another). I really like the BRM idea, and I'd really support BRM in featuring more in the way of kit building and how to's from the really basic, to the more advanced. It's a vast subject, doesn't have to take up too many column inches, and would provide a much needed boost.

 

Probably a daft analogy, but things like 'craft beer' and 'artisan bread' have been made popular in recent years, by advocating the local nature and hand crafted nature of the produce, therefore indicating a superior product. I wonder if such an approach could be used to market the virtues of kit building?

[kandc_au]

Totally agree, Jol.

 

I think the hobby needs a large push to help people get in to kit building. We can't do it alone, or with a thread like this (as popular as it is, in relative terms, only 205 people follow it, most of whom are already builders in some form or another). I really like the BRM idea, and I'd really support BRM in featuring more in the way of kit building and how to's from the really basic, to the more advanced. It's a vast subject, doesn't have to take up too many column inches, and would provide a much needed boost.

 

 

grob1234,

I would think that to really encourage people, with the help of a mag and some shows having some demonstrations in conjunction with this it would work.

 

 

Khris

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol,

How popular are Missendon Abbey courses?

I  am asking particularly from the novice point of view, or do they tend to fill up with those who are already converted or on the way to being converted?

 

Khris

Khris,

 

I haven't attended a Misseden course but know some that have, who rate them highly. Many attend repeatedly, I suspect partly because they enjoy the social aspect as much as the learning experience.

 

Other courses have been less successful, such as those run by Hobby Holidays - for reasons I don't understand, other than a lack of interest. The Pendon courses appear to focus on the scenic side of things while those run by Peco seem to concentrate on the basics and pushing their products.

 

Jol

[Clive Mortimore]

My thoughts on all this loco building, kit built, scratch built or otherwise, is that the builders aren't trying to compete with the manufacturers nor do they even attempt to do so but do it simply for self satisfaction and personal enjoyment .To me, anyone that can build a loco kit should be knighted. If he can build one from scratch then it wouldn't surprise me if he could walk on water.

 

I build buildings much for the same reason and quite aware that I'm never going to produce anything near as detailed and as perfect as ' Ready to plonk ' that's built to perfection in multi-million dollar industries - no, quite the opposite, where if I can come up with something reasonably representative of what I'm trying to represent with an empty cornflake packet and a tub of glue on a bench in a back room ( and get Tony Wright to photograph it !!!!! ) then, that to me,is all I want out of the hobby. The feel good factor.

 

To put it even simpler, Pendon wouldn't enjoy the reputation that it rightly desreves as probably the finest modelling in the World had it have been built in China and sent over in a crate ! 

 

Allan

Hi Allan

 

Scratchbuilders sink like all other mere mortals. I started to build my own because the classes I wanted were not available at the time. No one up-man-ship on anyone, in fact my stuff is very crude, but built to the best of my abilities. Most of all I enjoyed building them otherwise I would have gone without.

 

I find kit building harder than scratchbuilding, because the kit designer always goes about building things in the wrong order. I get frustrated when building a kit and things don't fit and need altering or replacing. Too many kits especially diesel kits are prone to this. If I make a sub component wrong when scratchbuilding, that is my problem and easily remedied.

 

Having trying to promote the virtues of scratchbuilding, I still find opening the box the easiest but a tad boring. 

[Barry Ten]

I know this is hopelessly idealistic, but I'd like to see a web-based hub for locomotive kit building, where all the manufacturers and suppliers can offer their various wares, organised in a logical fashion, so that kits, wheels and motors/gearboxes etc are easily obtained without shopping around different suppliers and having to make separate purchases each time, and where goods are offered for sale in the knowledge that they'll be packed and sent promptly. In addition, there'd be modelling threads and tutorials, videos and so on, covering all aspects of kit building, but in a friendly and egalitarian spirit without endless bickering about gauges, wheel standards, compensation etc. I'd also like it to make my tea and put out the bins on tuesday...

 

Alastair

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

I find kit building harder than scratchbuilding, because the kit designer always goes about building things in the wrong order.

 

Clive,

 

a sweeping and unhelpful generalisation.

I know this is hopelessly idealistic, but I'd like to see a web-based hub for locomotive kit building, where all the manufacturers and suppliers can offer their various wares, organised in a logical fashion, so that kits, wheels and motors/gearboxes etc are easily obtained without shopping around different suppliers and having to make separate purchases each time, and where goods are offered for sale in the knowledge that they'll be packed and sent promptly. In addition, there'd be modelling threads and tutorials, videos and so on, covering all aspects of kit building, but in a friendly and egalitarian spirit without endless bickering about gauges, wheel standards, compensation etc. I'd also like it to make my tea and put out the bins on tuesday...

 

Alastair

Alastair,

 

I you feel sufficiently strongly, why not set it up? I suspect that, if you leave it to someone else, it won't happen. There is no UK equivalent of the NMRA to pull such a thing together.. The S4Society has a list of suppliers and traders on their wbsite, but not to the degree of detail that you want. Likewise the UK Model Shops Directory has shop and supplier details, but only if the supplier provides them.

 

One difficulty would be keeping it up to date, as I know from being directly involved in setting up LNWR Society's modelling pages on their website.

 

Jol

[Bernard Lamb]

Probably a daft analogy, but things like 'craft beer' and 'artisan bread' have been made popular in recent years, by advocating the local nature and hand crafted nature of the produce, therefore indicating a superior product. I wonder if such an approach could be used to market the virtues of kit building?

More the opposite with model railways. People buy craft or artisan products as they are better than the mass produced equivalent. With model trains the RTR versions are so far in advance of anything that the vast majority of people can make. I am happy to buy RTR and carve it up to suit my requirements. Most of my freight stock is kit built and even then heavily modified. Others feel pain when taking a knife to what they perceive as a valuable investment. I do make my own bread but am not up to having a go at beer.

Bernard

[Mallard60022]

I will get shot down in flames for this post. I believe that Railway Modelling is a 'shrinking' hobby, whereas Wargaming, Model Aircraft, Model Ships and especially model cars (not Scalextric) are growing hobbies and when you see the standard of modelling, including kit and scratch building, that goes on in those activities then kit construcion and genertal modelling skills are alive and well. We may regret the decrease in building locomotive and coach (?) kits however there are talented people out there. 

Phil

[Clearwater]

As this thread develops, I've noticed a couple of posts that the next issue of the Hornby magazine covers adding a high level kits chassis to an old Lima body. I assume it's a blow by blow build but seems to be exactly the sort of stepping stone article that is useful. I'm aware the Hornby magazine can be viewed as rtr centric but the last issue had an excellent article on detailing the Hornby MN. I may read the article to see what it says.

 

In a similar vein, I found an article in A three year old or so RM showing how to use the Comet chassis and mainline dean Goods body. Whilst I've yet to complete that build, that article was a spur to me to buy the parts and give it a go.

 

David

[allan downes]

The evils of Ebay.

 

A guy photographs a beautifully built model of a locomotive, sticks it on Ebay, you buy it and end up not with the one in the photograph, but an abortion that he built.

 

Allan

[jjb1970]

I think the fundamental question is whether people want to encourage people to learn the skills of kit building and to grow that part of the hobby. If people see kits are a closed world then whether or not kits have usable instructions, a grading system which helps people to understand whether a kit is appropriate for their skill level and the general standard of kits is moot. If people want to encourage new entrants into building kits then these aspects are I think crucial in such encouragement.

 

People have certain expectations about products and services and those expectations have moved on from when I was a lot younger. Few people will accept half-baked products, “kits” that exist somewhere between being a kit and a scratch build project, poor instructions etc, and why should they? Especially when RTR is so good, is cheaper than kit alternatives and with more and more niche subjects being made available in RTR form. Model locomotive kits especially tend to be premium priced products and if you buy a premium priced product it’s not unreasonable to expect premium quality. In the case of a kit premium quality includes usable instructions. Again, for existing kit enthusiasts this is almost irrelevant, and if kit manufacturers do it as a hobby and don’t really care what the world outside their existing client base thinks then fair enough, but in that case they can’t expect the kit hobby to survive.

 

I really see no good reason for a kit not to have usable instructions, and see no real reason why a difficulty rating couldn’t be established. After all, plastic kit manufacturers do both of those things.

[MarkC]

The evils of Ebay.

 

A guy photographs a beautifully built model of a locomotive, sticks it on Ebay, you buy it and end up not with the one in the photograph, but an abortion that he built.

 

Allan

Then you have the hassle of returning it and getting your hard-earned back...

[allan downes]

Hi Allan

 

Scratchbuilders sink like all other mere mortals. I started to build my own because the classes I wanted were not available at the time. No one up-man-ship on anyone, in fact my stuff is very crude, but built to the best of my abilities. Most of all I enjoyed building them otherwise I would have gone without.

 

I find kit building harder than scratchbuilding, because the kit designer always goes about building things in the wrong order. I get frustrated when building a kit and things don't fit and need altering or replacing. Too many kits especially diesel kits are prone to this. If I make a sub component wrong when scratchbuilding, that is my problem and easily remedied.

 

Having trying to promote the virtues of scratchbuilding, I still find opening the box the easiest but a tad boring. 

 

Scratch building ( that's buildings, not anything on wheels the sight of which might upset a five year old and send it screaming to its mother ) provided me with a good living at a time when folk started to tire of Superquik and all the look-a-like layouts that appeared in magazines and at model railway exhibitions then, along came Hornby's Scaledale and Bachmann's Scenecraft, and all the look-a-like layouts started to reappear again in the magazines and, a revival of which, almost knocked me out of business.

 

Step-by-step articles on how to convert Bachmann's 'Daisy Hill' station into Euston or Hornby's equivalent into St Pancras didn't help much either -  even though neither or either never had a hope of looking  anything like what they were supposed to - even after having followed, with grim determination and more than just a little doubt even as early as completion of step one - 20 easy steps with a jewelers saw, craft knife and a ton of styrene.   

 

Allan, posted from the local soup kitchen.

Edited August 9, 2017 by allan downes

[johndon]

Model Ships and especially model cars (not Scalextric) are growing hobbies

 

As a model (war)ship builder, I can tell you that the forums that deal in such have threads on them bemoaning the lack of a future for the hobby as well...

 

John

[Jol Wilkinson]

 and see no real reason why a difficulty rating couldn’t be established. After all, plastic kit manufacturers do both of those things.

 

As I said earlier in relation to Barry Ten's post about a kits and bits "directory" it needs someone to organise it. Somehow I don't think there will be a rush of volunteers.

[richard i]

I'll assume you've found the Steve Banks webpage about these vehicles? The drawings are no help and the photos showing the vents don't seem to enlarge. They do look like the kitchen car vents to me and it would make sense to use something already on the shelf rather than design a new one. They are available from Mike Trice's Shapeways shop.I don't know whether there's an isinglass drawing or anything in Harris, but Roy Mears is doing one of these for Grantham so I can ask him if there's anything else you're specifically stuck on.

I had found banks webpage, I did also know of mike's offering, but I thought that as I only wanted two and it would have to come to the states it would make them very expensive. On looking again they are about ten bucks, five dollars a piece . Tempting at that price.

Thank you for the advice.

[Focalplane]

I will get shot down in flames for this post. I believe that Railway Modelling is a 'shrinking' hobby, whereas Wargaming, Model Aircraft, Model Ships and especially model cars (not Scalextric) are growing hobbies and when you see the standard of modelling, including kit and scratch building, that goes on in those activities then kit construcion and genertal modelling skills are alive and well. We may regret the decrease in building locomotive and coach (?) kits however there are talented people out there. 

Phil

 

Phil

 

When I am North Wales I always visit the couple who run Porthmadog Models.  They focus on model soldiers and wargaming pieces but also sell a huge range of plastic kits.  They assure me that the latter form a growing share of the business with younger modellers.  My grand daughter who likes to build things has several of their kits, so far of ships.  I only go there for the Humbrol paints and such like as they are a small outfit worthy of support and also helped me to select paints and learn techniques for painting railway figures.

 

I do think the problem with railway kits in general is the perceived level of complexity and techniques required.  As Coach says, the warnings on the boxes (no under 14s, soldering skills required, etc.) are one one reason for the ascendency of plastic kits over white metal and brass/nickel silver.

 

If we are to be dinosaurs, at least let us go out in a volcanic cloud of extinction!  Emitted, of course, from the chimneys of our steam locos.

 

Paul

[Theakerr]

A while back Tony referenced Sandford and Banwell in P4 as being one of the better layouts at a recent show.  SP Rail, who puts out some pretty good videos on U-Tube, had a fair bit of coverage of said layout in his latest video and I do agree it is rather nice and appears to run well.  Examination of the video suggests that many of the locos (and other stock?) are actually RTR modified to P4.  Assuming this is the case, the builder is clearly not a "kit builder" but he obviously is a pretty good modeller with construction skills because he has successfully modified the RTR material.  I have a friend in Ottawa, also a P4 builder, who is not a kit builder but is a pretty accumplished constructor in that he takes RTR locos and coaches, convert them to P4 and reworks as required.  I built a number of kits about 15 or more years ago but, nowadays (with one exception a C12 that I might just build this winter) I can get all the locos I want RTR with hauling power that meets my needs directly or can be altered such that it does meet my needs. Note, none of my RTR models remain in as received state.  Thus, really I am not a kit builder, but wait;  I am seriously thinking about building a C12 after a 15+ years hiatus of kit building and I am in the process of building a range of Ratio signals and making them work.  Perhaps I am a kit builder after all, especially if I can build working Ratio LNER Lattice post signals.  I suggest kit building is like our world - changing.  I am not at all sure any skills will actually be lost although they may be transferred to another focus and their may be fewer people who can apply them but they will still be there needed as required.  I suggest there are so many examples in the real world of skills that were going to be lost forever but now flourish, albeit with a much reduced skill pool and for a limited market.  E.g Coopers, wooden wheel makers, steam engine drivers,  

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

A RS or ST?

 

I have one and maybe able to help you with the radio.

 

Cheers

 

Lewis

Lewis,

 

Many thanks - it's an ST. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Some most interesting comments on kits, etc. My thanks for making this discussion so lively. 

 

I'll expand on items like courses tomorrow, having organised several and been a tutor at many. 

 

A frequently asked question is 'Does kit-building have a future?'

 

 

It does if the 15 year old I had visit today is typical. Though the leading loco in this double-headed pair (a first on LB) is not from a kit, he's starting to alter/personalise it in a most encouraging manner. This Bachmann O4 is certainly not just straight from the box, and he's using the likes of this as a starting point for future kit-building. He can't wait to get going. He also brought along some exquisite OO9 locos he's put together from 3D printed components. I didn't take a picture but he and Tim Easter did, so perhaps they'll post them on here. Tim, by the way, produced the second loco in the pair - the O4/8.

 

 

 

His dad is a kit-builder - witness this very nice DJH A3, all the elder's work. 

 

Tim, Ed and Jonathan - thanks for a great day. 

 

I'll post some more about this tomorrow. 

 

 

 

 

[Willie Whizz]

Clive,

 

a sweeping and unhelpful generalisation.

Alastair,

 

I you feel sufficiently strongly, why not set it up? I suspect that, if you leave it to someone else, it won't happen. There is no UK equivalent of the NMRA to pull such a thing together.. The S4Society has a list of suppliers and traders on their wbsite, but not to the degree of detail that you want. Likewise the UK Model Shops Directory has shop and supplier details, but only if the supplier provides them.

 

One difficulty would be keeping it up to date, as I know from being directly involved in setting up LNWR Society's modelling pages on their website.

 

Jol

 

No wonder our kit manufacturers are struggling ... not only are most of them (it appears) so very lacking in literacy and drawing skills (even though they miraculously can draw their product to enable etches or computer programs to be produced) that they can't be expected to prepare a decent set of instructions for showing a novice how to build the things ... but it seems they are also too diffident, too shy, too lacking in self-confidence, too short of time, too fearful of criticism, or maybe even too downright untrustworthy to 'rate' their own product in terms of ease of build, the way so many of the plastic kit manufacturers routinely do without fuss or trauma.

 

(Note, incidentally, that I'm talking only about rating the ease or otherwise of building; not the accuracy, value-for-money, prospective popularity or anything else).

 

But maybe Jol Wilkinson is right; maybe it actually needs some some organisation or person of high profile to take a visible lead to start things off.  In which case I have a suggestion of how it could be done.

 

Said organisation or person - and for credibility it could for example be a mainstream magazine, a leading website, an 'interest group', a major Club, or even an individual of high reputation as a kit-builder and/or reviewer - prepares and publishes a set of "Draft Guidelines" for a rating system.  They allow (say) a 2-month Consultation Period for comment and suggested amendment.  The responses are collated and sensible ones used to amend the Guidelines, which are then widely promulgated as a standard to which manufacturers themselves can voluntarily measure and rate their products against.  If they don't want to, they don't have to ... but 'reputation' will probably soon do it for them anyway.  Nor does a purchaser have to be put-off if they are really determined - it's only guidance, not compulsion.  

 

The biggest reservation people seem to have about the idea of rating kits - especially loco kits - in general seems to be the 'soldering' issue.  I respectfully suggest that with a little thought people will realise this is a boojum.  If, for example, we visualise a scale of 1 - 5, then this particular aspect might be described thus:

 

[1]  No soldering required - only adhesive [specify generic type, e.g.polystyrene cement]

 

[2]  Some basic soldering required.  If you are new to this, the technique is described in a number of 'how to' railway modelling books, for example .... [name two or three readily-available ones]

 

and so on, up to ...

 

[5]  Kit requires experienced soldering skills to assemble; indeed you may also need to make from scratch or commission some parts that are not commercially available in order to complete the model.  

 

Is that really so very implausible to envisage?

Edited August 9, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[Clearwater]

Tony

 

You made a comment made a couple of page that DJH haven't introduced a new kit for a number of years. They obviously have an extensive back catalogue, not all of which seems to be available at any one time, which suggests to me that whilst they keep certain items in production they do rotate some items in and out of production. However, it left me thinking that there can't be all that many of the principal loco classes that haven't been offered as a kit at some point or another. Are there any glaring omisions from the kit market?

 

On Phil Mallard's point above about the changing nature of modelling, I think there's a fair bit in that. Whilst there's not a real model shop in central London, Ian Allen stock a few things, there is a large Warhammer type shop on Tottenham Court Road. I don't think the urge to create will go away albeit what is created will change in form and nature. From a railway modelling perspective, the ability to spot what can be adapted and scavenged into the railway scene may become more appropriate. For my part, I'm steadily stockpiling kit type items that I would at some point like to build. Given its unlikely that they'll always be in production, it strikes me as prudent to buy what I think I may want in the future whilst I can. Sadly sites like Miss Prism's gwr.org.uk already point to a long list of "No Longer Availables." Some of which I hope to find on eBay one day; others perhaps in the bargain bucket at a preserved railway!

 

David

[grahame]

 

If we are to be dinosaurs, at least let us go out in a volcanic cloud of extinction! Emitted, of course, from the chimneys of our steam locos.

 

AFAIC the jury is still out on whether railway modelling is in terminal decline and who and how new blood should be attracted. But it has always struck me that the hobby has a very wide ranging remit (skills, subjects, approaches, etc.,). Unfortunately, a very narrow focus is the face most often presented (at exhibitions, in the press, and so on) that gives the impression only steam trains can or should be modelled. There is much more (and more than just other traction types) that the younger generation is more likely to engage with in real life, find inspiration from and may be encouraged to model.

 

G

Edited August 10, 2017 by grahame

[Focalplane]

AFAIC the jury is still out on whether railway modelling is in terminal decline and who and how new blood should be attracted. But it has always struck me that the hobby has a very wide ranging remit (skills, subjects, approaches, etc.,). Unfortunately, a very narrow focus is the face most often presented (at exhibitions, in the press, and so on) that gives the impression only steam trains can or should be modelled. There is much more (and more than just other traction types) that the younger generation is more likely to engage with in real life, find inspiration from and may be encouraged to model.

 

G

 

Some diesel engines can supply a volcanic eruption of smoke and fumes at times!  But I agree with your general sentiment concerning future railway modelling.  Paul

[micklner]

No wonder our kit manufacturers are struggling ... not only are most of them (it appears) so very lacking in literacy and drawing skills (even though they miraculously can draw their product to enable etches or computer programs to be produced) that they can't be expected to prepare a decent set of instructions for showing a novice how to build the things ... but it seems they are also too diffident, too shy, too lacking in self-confidence, too short of time, too fearful of criticism, or maybe even too downright untrustworthy to 'rate' their own product in terms of ease of build, the way so many of the plastic kit manufacturers routinely do without fuss or trauma.

 

(Note, incidentally, that I'm talking only about rating the ease or otherwise of building; not the accuracy, value-for-money, prospective popularity or anything else).

 

But maybe Jol Wilkinson is right; maybe it actually needs some some organisation or person of high profile to take a visible lead to start things off.  In which case I have a suggestion of how it could be done.

 

Said organisation or person - and for credibility it could for example be a mainstream magazine, a leading website, an 'interest group', a major Club, or even an individual of high reputation as a kit-builder and/or reviewer - prepares and publishes a set of "Draft Guidelines" for a rating system.  They allow (say) a 2-month Consultation Period for comment and suggested amendment.  The responses are collated and sensible ones used to amend the Guidelines, which are then widely promulgated as a standard to which manufacturers themselves can voluntarily measure and rate their products against.  If they don't want to, they don't have to ... but 'reputation' will probably soon do it for them anyway.  Nor does a purchaser have to be put-off if they are really determined - it's only guidance, not compulsion.  

 

The biggest reservation people seem to have about the idea of rating kits - especially loco kits - in general seems to be the 'soldering' issue.  I respectfully suggest that with a little thought people will realise this is a boojum.  If, for example, we visualise a scale of 1 - 5, then this particular aspect might be described thus:

 

[1]  No soldering required - only adhesive [specify generic type, e.g.polystyrene cement]

 

[2]  Some basic soldering required.  If you are new to this, the technique is described in a number of 'how to' railway modelling books, for example .... [name two or three readily-available ones]

 

and so on, up to ...

 

[5]  Kit requires experienced soldering skills to assemble; indeed you may also need to make from scratch or commission some parts that are not commercially available in order to complete the model.  

 

Is that really so very implausible to envisage?

 

One big problem is how many people buy a kit and then build and are able to give comments in a two month period? I would suggest very few kits are even started in such short time frame. I am building one at the moment that I have had for over thee years .