Wright writes.....

[allan downes]

The same instructions applied to how to open the boot but in reverse.

 

Following these instructions also set your interior mirror back to factory default but your boot wouldn't open and a wheel might fall off.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by allan downes

[Focalplane]

Truly anisometric diagrams!

[MarkC]

Those reversing bleepers get on my tit and I would prefer a speaking reverser-assist....

 

But not a Mancunian one......."Hey oop kiddo, tekkit easy........wottthefukc..."

 

Or a Welsh one..... "Steady there innit boyo gogogoch...............  iesu mawr !                                    

Or one with a speech impediment...........  "Come on....c  c  c  come on.....easy now....w  w  w   w    w     w     w      whoa!"

Imagine one connected to a self-parking car - "I cannot let you do that, Dave"

[Enterprisingwestern]

Re self parking cars.

Having never owned one so fitted, do they get themselves out of the tight situation that they have just got you into, or is that your problem? The adverts never say.

 

Mike.

Apologies for thread drift.

[TrevorP1]

I recently bought a new Mercedes that parks itself.

 

On being told of this by the salesman, I asked him why would I want it to do that. I've been doing my own parking for over 60 years - sure I've clouted a few thing, but who hasn't, the principle's the same and so are the dents accumulated - to which he just answered that " It sells cars to people who can't drive backwards "

 

Allan

 

 

Self parking cars, headlights and wipers that turn themselves on, cars that talk to you, cars that wiggle your bum if they don't approve of something, electric handbrakes... I'm glad I shall be dead and well scattered before there are too many self *driving* cars on the road!

 

On the subject of which, can anyone please tell me what will happen when two self driving cars meet on a single track lane where the only passing place is a slippery muddy gateway? It will be no good relying on the 'drivers' because they will have lost all their skills even if they had them in the first place.

 

On a serious note I was talking to the chap who runs the garage where ours go for MoT tests. He is worried because when all this stuff goes wrong and puts on a warning light he will have to fail the car even if the customer neither uses nor wants the systems.

 

Rant over. Soap box put away for the evening!

[Willie Whizz]

...

 

I've said before that I know from talking to manufacturers that over 90% of their (particularly) loco kits are never completed. Most end up in a half-built (usually glued-together) mess. Even if they are 'completed', they very often don't run. Need one ask, then, why current RTR is so burgeoning? I reckon that most failed loco building is not down to poor instructions (though they must be a factor) but down to aspiration over ability. It's more often than not that the complex 'favourites' (the big, complex locos) are attempted and the result is just abject failure. Some who fail, hide their creations (or abominations?) away, fearing ridicule if the results are witnessed by others. Some immediately blame the kit, and refuse to acknowledge that they're really just duffers at the job - and probably always will be. The wisest of the failed builders give up, or pay someone else to do it for them. 

 

I am very critical of kit instructions where (because of a perceived fear of soldering), glue is recommended as a medium for holding things together. Items like etched nickel silver coupling rod laminates? Or, etched brass window frames into etched brass cab sides? Why don't they just come clean and state that 'If you can't solder, don't attempt this kit?' They might lose a sale, but their models might well get built properly. 

 

... 

 

Now that, to me, sounds once again like a good argument for a "Difficulty Rating System" whereby the manufacturer advertises the kit with a simple indication of the skill level required, on a range of say 1 (= good straightforward starter kit for a beginner) to 5 (= experience highly desirable; not suitable for those with limited experience and without a comprehensive tool-kit), or a 'traffic light' system.  People have resisted that on the grounds it is 'too subjective' and different manufacturers will have different ideas how their product should be rated.  I can only reiterate that some of the major plastic model manufacturers seem to have no difficulty deciding, and there is no widespread impression from customers or reviewers that they keep getting it wrong.

[Hroth]

Re self parking cars.

Having never owned one so fitted, do they get themselves out of the tight situation that they have just got you into, or is that your problem? The adverts never say.

 

Mike.

Apologies for thread drift.

6 to 2 BA, I'd say......

 

As for self parking cars, the joke is that the gap they require to "self park" is so huge.  If you can't park the car yourself in that large a space then you really don't have any business being on the road in the first place...

[St Enodoc]

RADIO - in a car?  Any decent car has a WIRELESS, and an optional extra at that!

 

Stewart

My first car was (a half-share in) a Ford 100E Pop. The radio cost more than the car.

[Headstock]

So rather than going on about poor instructions, can I suggest that, as Tony and some others do, show what you have built and inspire others to try. Point out problems you found and how you overcame them, so helping others to succeed.

 

Having just trawled through page upon page of photographs of workbenches and now pages of instruction jokes, I fully understand your point of view. How about the stuff that is supposed to be coming off those workbenches, or are they just for show?

[The Johnster]

My first car was (a half-share in) a Ford 100E Pop. The radio cost more than the car.

 

Probably went faster as well...

[Jol Wilkinson]

Now that, to me, sounds once again like a good argument for a "Difficulty Rating System" whereby the manufacturer advertises the kit with a simple indication of the skill level required, on a range of say 1 (= good straightforward starter kit for a beginner) to 5 (= experience highly desirable; not suitable for those with limited experience and without a comprehensive tool-kit), or a 'traffic light' system.  People have resisted that on the grounds it is 'too subjective' and different manufacturers will have different ideas how their product should be rated.  I can only reiterate that some of the major plastic model manufacturers seem to have no difficulty deciding, and there is no widespread impression from customers or reviewers that they keep getting it wrong.

Who is going to decide on the definition of what is suitable for a beginner? What skills and tools would a beginner need? Should they have to take an exam to measure their level of skill/experience/expertise? Unless you can define what a "beginner" can do, then you can't define which kits might be suitable. What are the intermediate levels and how do you define an "expert" or a comprehensive tool kit?

 

Perhaps we should ask manufacturers to discuss their customers needs and abilities when selling their products (which is what several that I know do already). Selling a customer a kit they want and can build will, hopefully, lead to further sales. I know which of the kits produced by the trader I help out are more suitable for the "beginner". The problem is, I don't know what basic skills the "beginner" may have, what experience, what tools, etc. Sometimes it becomes a long conversation and it doesn't always end in a sale. Sometimes, at a show, we are able to send them of to the demo area or to buy a suitable book or DVD on the subject to give them a feel for what they are setting out to do.

 

What role do clubs, Societies and other modelling organisations have to play in this? Are many clubs bothered about model making as opposed to just buying models? Some I know of have very positive attitudes to model making, while others don't care, seeing using RTR as what modelling is about and positively discouraging anyone who wants to do anything a bit different. Until a person sees model making and kit building as a more worthwhile and rewarding activity than buying a model made by a commercial operation, then they won't be motivated to have a go.

 

A complex issue and not one that putting arbitrary difficulty ratings on kits will resolve. Complaining - in general - about kit instructions on RMweb won't actually help either. It can give the "beginner" the wrong impression and a fear of kits. Better to show people how to build kits as Tony does through this thread, Tom does with his videos and others do elsewhere on RMweb. LIkewise run workshops at club meetings, provide demos at shows, etc.

 

Or don't bother with any of that and accept that kit building is in an inevitable slow decline for a whole variety of reasons and just get on with life (having stockpiled the kits and bits you want while they are still available).

[kandc_au]

Jol,

Seems rather defeatest to me.
While kitbuilders may or may not be in decline, people need encouragement.

Okay I used lowest common denominator, which was probably wrong, but to me quite often instructions  are written assuming that you already have a fair bit of knowledge of the subject matter. In this case loco's.

I am NOT an incompetent modeller, but until the last few years particularly since I changed to model UK outline, I had not soldered a kit let alone white metal.
I am one of those who really needs to see things done first....NOT just read it. Maybe that is why I have been so rapt that I stumbled on the Youtube clip.

I have found that many hints and tips in the one clip alone that I don't have a fear of moving forward now.

Even though I have managed to stumble my way through doing 2 collett chassis...and stumbled is the operative word.
Seeing something actually being done is probably the biggest hurdle stopping  most modellers having a go IMO!

 

One other point of note: In the UK you are VERY fortunate with the number of exhibitions you have and the quality of exhibitions you have, including those who do the demonstrations, and their approachability as I found in 2011 at York and others I attended.

 

Khris

[Richard E]

Ah, the 100E, wipers went slower the faster the car went, encouraged you to slow down in the wet. And then there was the 107E, rare then, sold as a 4 door alternative to the 105E Anglia. Was a 100E body with posh trim and a 105E 997cc engine and gearbox. Still had those darn vacuum wipers though ....

 

I digressed!

[grob1234]

I hope it is OK to post this here, and apologies if you are already familiar with the kit, but here is my latest video, which may be of interest, especially if you are new to kit building. I look at the box contents of the DJH LNER A1/3 and also show the extra bits and bobs I have in order to turn the kit into a loco. This kit will form the basis of a build series too. I am now filming in 4k as well, so do make sure to set your resolution to max! Many thanks for looking.

 

https://youtu.be/7xlP4wYuY00

[Killybegs]

I don't think you've ever been at the 'duffer' stage, John,

 

Just as an aside regarding instructions, might I add this little piece, please? It has nothing to do with loco kit-making, but you mention TV instructions. May I add radio instructions to that?

 

I've not long ago bought a new car (well, new to me, anyway). It's a very fast Ford Focus. Previous to this I had an 'ordinary' Ford Focus. In that one, I could work the radio. Not in this new one! Despite reading the (what appear to be) clear instructions, all I get is either some awful modern station (pre-selected by the previous owner?) where some thick-accented DJ just assaults my hearing with his inane ramblings and plays stuff called ©rap-music and the like, or all that comes out is just a kind of low 'roaring' noise. Try as I might, I can't get TMS or music which is music. 

 

Which brings me to the point of this particular piece of rambling. It could be that the radio instructions are perfect, but I'm too dim to understand them. Every button I press just takes me into another (even more incomprehensible) sub-menu, which, like a diabolical digital maze, is impossible to escape from.

 

Is that the reason why I abandoned kit instructions? They might not have been dire at all - just me who's too dim to work them out! 

 

We bought a new Focus last year. Programme selection has been hit and miss since then. We are still waiting to get the unit replaced under warranty. This is not helped by the fact that, needless to say, it works every time it goes back to the dealer!

[gooey_lewy]

I don't think you've ever been at the 'duffer' stage, John,

 

Just as an aside regarding instructions, might I add this little piece, please? It has nothing to do with loco kit-making, but you mention TV instructions. May I add radio instructions to that?

 

I've not long ago bought a new car (well, new to me, anyway). It's a very fast Ford Focus. Previous to this I had an 'ordinary' Ford Focus. In that one, I could work the radio. Not in this new one! Despite reading the (what appear to be) clear instructions, all I get is either some awful modern station (pre-selected by the previous owner?) where some thick-accented DJ just assaults my hearing with his inane ramblings and plays stuff called ©rap-music and the like, or all that comes out is just a kind of low 'roaring' noise. Try as I might, I can't get TMS or music which is music.

 

Which brings me to the point of this particular piece of rambling. It could be that the radio instructions are perfect, but I'm too dim to understand them. Every button I press just takes me into another (even more incomprehensible) sub-menu, which, like a diabolical digital maze, is impossible to escape from.

 

Is that the reason why I abandoned kit instructions? They might not have been dire at all - just me who's too dim to work them out!

Tony,

 

A RS or ST?

 

I have one and maybe able to help you with the radio.

 

Cheers

 

Lewis

[coachmann]

Talking of kit instructions and a 'difficult' rating system, I feel we going overboard in trying to cover all bases in order to protect the unwary from themselves. If you bite off more than you can chew when choosing a kit to build, man-up and chalk it down to inexperience. But before buying any metal kit, learn to solder first. Once people see how easy it is, the world will be their oyster.

 

A couple of years ago I discovered a long forgotten 1980's Mallard GWR auto coach kit in the garage. I took one look at the fret of etchings and worked out a plan of alterations before even attempting to put it together. The design had unworkable folds and tabs that were doubtless incorporated to 'assist' builders when in fact they guaranteed that few of these kits would ever be built. It took 'experience' to see it needed converting into a set of basic parts before it could be assembled, so good or bad instructions would not have made a scrap of difference.  

[Hroth]

Ah, the 100E, wipers went slower the faster the car went, encouraged you to slow down in the wet. And then there was the 107E, rare then, sold as a 4 door alternative to the 105E Anglia. Was a 100E body with posh trim and a 105E 997cc engine and gearbox. Still had those darn vacuum wipers though ....

 

I digressed!

Its summer, digression is allowed!

 

Dad had a 1950 Ford Pilot, their "luxury" V8* model with gangster wings and running boards, huge chromed headlights, leather upholstery, wool carpets and braided cord grab handles (needed those on bench seats!).  But it still had the dire vacuum windscreen wipers, which slowed down when you needed them most.....

 

* Rated at 68bhp for a 3.6 litre engine...

[allan downes]

My thoughts on all this loco building, kit built, scratch built or otherwise, is that the builders aren't trying to compete with the manufacturers nor do they even attempt to do so but do it simply for self satisfaction and personal enjoyment .To me, anyone that can build a loco kit should be knighted. If he can build one from scratch then it wouldn't surprise me if he could walk on water.

 

I build buildings much for the same reason and quite aware that I'm never going to produce anything near as detailed and as perfect as ' Ready to plonk ' that's built to perfection in multi-million dollar industries - no, quite the opposite, where if I can come up with something reasonably representative of what I'm trying to represent with an empty cornflake packet and a tub of glue on a bench in a back room ( and get Tony Wright to photograph it !!!!! ) then, that to me,is all I want out of the hobby. The feel good factor.

 

To put it even simpler, Pendon wouldn't enjoy the reputation that it rightly desreves as probably the finest modelling in the World had it have been built in China and sent over in a crate ! 

 

Allan

Edited August 9, 2017 by allan downes

[richard i]

Change of subject.

Modeling question.

Does anyone know the dimensions for the square roof ventilators on LNER coaches. I am converting a Kirk kit into the cinema coach for a bit of variety. They look to be similar to the ones on restaurant cars or kitchen cars, I could be wrong on this. I want to scratch a pair up.

Many thanks

Richard

[jacko]

I build buildings much for the same reason and quite aware that I'm never going to produce anything near as detailed and as perfect as ' Ready to plonk ' that's built to perfection in multi-million dollar industries -

 

I'm tempted to just shout B*llocks here Allan.  I've seen photos of your work and there's no way any RTP buildings come up to your standard in detail or accuracy. Most RTP offerings look like toys whereas - from what I've seen - your work looks like real buildings only in miniature. .

 

Graeme

[jwealleans]

I'll assume you've found the Steve Banks webpage about these vehicles? The drawings are no help and the photos showing the vents don't seem to enlarge. They do look like the kitchen car vents to me and it would make sense to use something already on the shelf rather than design a new one. They are available from Mike Trice's Shapeways shop.

 

I don't know whether there's an isinglass drawing or anything in Harris, but Roy Mears is doing one of these for Grantham so I can ask him if there's anything else you're specifically stuck on.

Edited August 9, 2017 by jwealleans

[Jol Wilkinson]

Jol,

Seems rather defeatest to me.

While kitbuilders may or may not be in decline, people need encouragement.

Okay I used lowest common denominator, which was probably wrong, but to me quite often instructions  are written assuming that you already have a fair bit of knowledge of the subject matter. In this case loco's.

I am NOT an incompetent modeller, but until the last few years particularly since I changed to model UK outline, I had not soldered a kit let alone white metal.

I am one of those who really needs to see things done first....NOT just read it. Maybe that is why I have been so rapt that I stumbled on the Youtube clip.

I have found that many hints and tips in the one clip alone that I don't have a fear of moving forward now.

Even though I have managed to stumble my way through doing 2 collett chassis...and stumbled is the operative word.

Seeing something actually being done is probably the biggest hurdle stopping  most modellers having a go IMO!

 

One other point of note: In the UK you are VERY fortunate with the number of exhibitions you have and the quality of exhibitions you have, including those who do the demonstrations, and their approachability as I found in 2011 at York and others I attended.

 

Khris

Khris,

 

I hoped I wasn't being defeatist but pragmatic.

 

Yes, you are right that we have many exhibitions (as well as clubs and societies) here in the UK where the groundwork should be happening to expand peoples model making skills. My experience show it doesn't always happen, usually because there is insufficient appetite to do something different/challenge. The excuse often used is that "I couldn't make/paint something as good as the RTR manufacturers). Those of use that make models from kits accept that may well be true, but we might want something that isn't available RTR, have discovered the satisfaction of creating something for yourself, etc. 

 

Over the years I have been an occasional demonstrator, held workshops at a local club, run model making evening classes at a local college and offered the benefit(?) of my experience from behind an exhibition layout or a trade stand for a "small supplier". So I have some experience of how the hobby "operates". You are right in saying what people need is the motivation to have a go. How you provide that motivation is something not often discussed. Focusing on specific problems such as poor instructions and coming up with simple but possibly difficult to implement answers won't move things forward.

 

Perhaps if Railway Modeller or BRM ran a competition for first time kit built locos, modified RTR models, etc. supported by kit building demos at major shows such as Warley or Ally Pally, we might see a bit of change. MRJ have do something like that over the years to promote various aspects of model making (their latest is the Cameo Layout Competition), but that is rather like preaching to the converted.

 

Jol

[allan downes]

Its summer, digression is allowed!

 

Dad had a 1950 Ford Pilot, their "luxury" V8* model with gangster wings and running boards, huge chromed headlights, leather upholstery, wool carpets and braided cord grab handles (needed those on bench seats!).  But it still had the dire vacuum windscreen wipers, which slowed down when you needed them most.....

 

* Rated at 68bhp for a 3.6 litre engine...

 

I had one of dem by golly !

 

Thus, cue for a story.

 

What now seems to be like another time in another universe, I pulled the most attractive and sought after girl in Luton. Long flowing hair, legs to match, reasonably compliant.

 

So, one really hot summer's evening I picked her up in my V Eight Pilot, six volt system, designed to stall at traffic lights and never to start again short of  a length of rope or a willing rugger `eleven who just happened to be passing, the inevitable happened - the lights turned red ( fitted with three red bulbs for whenever I approached them ) braked hard - or as hard as a  Ford could ever manage on cable operated drum brakes with linings worn down to the rivets - stalled and, as was customary, refused to start but not before it had flattened the battery and stripped the starting handle of its lug.

 

However, there upon, emergency measures were called for which, for the major part if not all, involved me half hanging outside the door and trying to steer and push at the same time ( read that as you will ) and girl friend with long flowing hair, legs to match and reasonably compliant nature  both pushing to clear the lights but the more we pushed, the heavier it got and, when I finally reached the other side of the junction I realized why. The girl, along with her long flowing hair and legs to match had become suddenly very short on compliance, had disappeared completely and I haven't seen her since from that day to this.

 

Allan

Edited August 9, 2017 by allan downes

[kandc_au]

 

Over the years I have been an occasional demonstrator, held workshops at a local club, run model making evening classes at a local college and offered the benefit(?) of my experience from behind an exhibition layout or a trade stand for a "small supplier". So I have some experience of how the hobby "operates". You are right in saying what people need is the motivation to have a go. How you provide that motivation is something not often discussed. Focusing on specific problems such as poor instructions and coming up with simple but possibly difficult to implement answers won't move things forward.

 

Perhaps if Railway Modeller or BRM ran a competition for first time kit built locos, modified RTR models, etc. supported by kit building demos at major shows such as Warley or Ally Pally, we might see a bit of change. MRJ have do something like that over the years to promote various aspects of model making (their latest is the Cameo Layout Competition), but that is rather like preaching to the converted.

 

Jol

Jol,

How popular are Missendon Abbey courses?

I  am asking particularly from the novice point of view, or do they tend to fill up with those who are already converted or on the way to being converted?

 

Khris