Wright writes.....

[allan downes]

Loco kits are wasted on me therefore the instructions are pointless and are the first thing to be discarded second to the kit itself. But the cardboard box can be useful...

 

Allan

[31A]

 

 

 

I've also had a rummage through my book collection and finally found a photo of one of these in action post war on a GN suburban service. I can't post it for copyright reasons, but if you have access to 'East Coast from Kings Cross' by Eric Neve, P83 has a lovely photo of an Ivatt Atlantic on a 10 coach suburban set in 1948 - all in teak/ coach brown livery. The formation is:

Twin steel corridor BTK/TK (d.194/5)

Twin Non-corridor T/F (d.124/6)

Twin T/T (d.105/6) - probably

Twin CL/BT (d.107/8) - possibly

Two unidentified non-artic coaches

 

The formation gets increasingly difficult to determine as you go back, so I can't be sure after the first four coaches. If any of the coach experts out there have access to the book and could cast a glance at the photo I would be very grateful. It would be a lovely train to model - although I might have to go a couple of years later as I can't paint teak! I imagine it would have stayed similar to this until the mark 1s arrived.

 

Before anyone points this out, one issue the photo has reminded me of is that my artic should have turnbuckle trussing. Another one for the roundtuit pile - in my defence I inherited it with the steel angle trussing and it's well araldited in!

 

Andy

 

 

Thank you for the reference to that picture, which I've just dug out and had a look at.  I've got a similar project in mind, involving two Hornby Thirds and had also been looking for evidence of use of these Twins on the ex GN section; just need to score another Third to go with the one I've already got, hopefully without paying silly money!  Must admit, I hadn't thought of making a Third/First Twin - the Hornby Firsts are sometimes easier to come by than the Thirds.

[TheSignalEngineer]

In a perfect world, kit instructions would be written by someone who had built the kit but not designed it!!!  I accept that this is not as easy an ask as it might first appear.

 

Why?  The bloke building it might not accept he is an idiot and so to him the kit is at fault. In my time i have seen some right abortions and some really nice models............ all built from the same kit. The bloke who designed it knows in what order he intended it to be built.  

In an ideal world I think that the designer should be made to assemble the first sample kit, writing the instructions as he goes along. 

A second kit and the instructions should then be handed to a builder who has had no previous involvement. Any problems he finds with either the kit or the instructions should then be ironed out with the designer before full production.

[t-b-g]

I know of some kit instructions written by somebody who has not only not designed the kit in question but has never built any kit himself.

 

They are written with a confident style and have allowed the kits to be built with successful results.

 

My "takes the biscuit" award goes to DJH. I have recently spent some time with somebody who was building the Austerity 2-10-0.

 

The body instructions (I may have forgotten some of the numbers) are "Assemble parts 1 to 46. Fit wires to parts 36 and 39."

 

And that was it! There was an exploded diagram. Photocopied many times and with lines so feint you couldn't see them, which gave a bit of guidance as to where things go but was open to misinterpretation.

 

Yet for all this, by reference to the diagram and a few photos, the chap (who has built a few kits but is by no means an expert model maker) put it together.

[Focalplane]

It has been said (on this forum?) that the time taken to write good instructions is too long to be justified, which may explain why some are so poor.

 

I don't subscribe to this view at all because I prefer kits with good instructions and will go back for another one from the same company.  In the 7mm world, with a much smaller market, the instructions can be excellent with both useful text and chronology and well drawn exploded isometric diagrams for various stages of construction.  Jim McGeown, Dave Sharp and David Andrews all supply really good instructions with their kits.  All my 7mm kits to date have been acquired from these three individuals.

[The Johnster]

Why?  The bloke building it might not accept he is an idiot and so to him the kit is at fault. In my time i have seen some right abortions and some really nice models............ all built from the same kit. The bloke who designed it knows in what order he intended it to be built.  

 

But this is exactly the problem.  The designer already knows how the thing is supposed to go together, but may not be adept at the 'not as easy as it looks' dark art of communicating that clearly and unequivocally to an amateur builder who, if he is anything like me, is very good at getting the wrong end of the stick.  In a perfect world, I'm probably never going to get instruction of this sort, and have learned by some hard and expensive lessons that much time has to be taken when assembling kits to interpret what the designer intends.  What is obvious toe the designer may not be to others, particularly inexperienced others.  Designing kits and writing instructions are different skillsets.

 

It is probably fair to say that an experienced kit builder can put a loco together without even referring to the instructions, but a less experienced person will need his hand holding at each stage, and this is where the effectiveness of the instructions becomes vital.  Some are very good, some are understandable with a bit of interpretation, and I have had kits that are unbuildable if you follow the instructions according to what I think they mean.

 

As the world of 4mm kits is increasingly moribund, the matter is becoming, sadly, increasingly academic!

Edited August 6, 2017 by The Johnster

[richard i]

likely a myth but did one manufacture of old give instructions: " Make chassis, Make body, Fit body to chassis, paint as required." Some i have found are much longer than this but about as helpful. Others have been superb, but all benefit from finding a photo...or two of the specific one to be built for further referencing.

Richard

[allan downes]

Loco kits apart and Superquick to the fore, I built two of their mainline station kits - one by reading the instructions and one by not. I ended up with two different stations entierly where one looked like the station it was meant too whilst the other looked like nothing on Earth.

 

You HAVE to read the instructions - even if you don't understand them. Then you feel fully justified when blaming the manufacturer for you ending up with a total failure that doesn't either run , looks like it could run or looks absolutely nothing like the loco that it was supposed too. 

 

Allan, manager of failed loco builders and non instruction readers.

[t-b-g]

I was standing by the show stand of the late George Norton one time and a customer was having a bit of a dig about some instructions. With a perfectly straight face George replied "The sort of modellers who build my kits don't usually need instructions".

 

I could never work out whether he was being serious or if it was his rather strange sense of humour.

[cctransuk]

I was standing by the show stand of the late George Norton one time and a customer was having a bit of a dig about some instructions. With a perfectly straight face George replied "The sort of modellers who build my kits don't usually need instructions".

 

I could never work out whether he was being serious or if it was his rather strange sense of humour.

 

I suspect that George was being perfectly serious - it would be foolish to try and build one of those kits without having built a few less complex kits.

 

By the time you were ready to build his kits, you wouldn't need much in the way of instructions.

 

Better to be up front about whether a potential customer is likely to be capable of building a kit than to sell one to a novice, who might then put the word about that your kits are 'unbuildable'.

 

Pragmatism at its best!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Clive Mortimore]

likely a myth but did one manufacture of old give instructions: " Make chassis, Make body, Fit body to chassis, paint as required." Some i have found are much longer than this but about as helpful. Others have been superb, but all benefit from finding a photo...or two of the specific one to be built for further referencing.

Richard

Hi Richard, are you sure you haven't any of my surplus MTK kits in your collection? If you have read the instructions, they are as simple as you suggest.

 

Anyhow, I want to know where in any instructions does it say "raid your spares box for a better xyz", because all the loco kit building articles I have read indicate that is something we all should do? Second question where does one acquire said spares box, if new to kit building.

[TheSignalEngineer]

It has been said (on this forum?) that the time taken to write good instructions is too long to be justified, which may explain why some are so poor.

 

I don't subscribe to this view at all because I prefer kits with good instructions and will go back for another one from the same company.  In the 7mm world, with a much smaller market, the instructions can be excellent with both useful text and chronology and well drawn exploded isometric diagrams for various stages of construction.  Jim McGeown, Dave Sharp and David Andrews all supply really good instructions with their kits.  All my 7mm kits to date have been acquired from these three individuals.

The simplest instruction sheet would be a log of how the designer put together the test sample. If he didn't do that how does he know his design is correct and that it all works? 

[mullie]

I have built a  Comet 0-6-0 chassis and am about to start a second including the gearboxes, instructions are good and as a novice I've been able to follow them and get a working chassis although I did strip a gear wheel but I suspect that is something everyone has done at some stage. 

 

I'm currently working slowly on a Lochgorm starter wagon kit, the £8 fret of which I have bought two. They come with good instructions both in text and diagrams, also an article from Model Rail on how to build them. For such a cheap price this is excellent. Building the wagon and chassis my soldering skills have improved massively and I have become an expert at unsoldering things! I enjoy soldering things and have become more confident. I'm not a complete novice as I've been building my own copperclad point work for nearly ten years.

 

For those of us just starting out good instructions are important, I don't belong to a club nor do I have anywhere other than RM Web where I can get advice. When I started building point work I followed the instructions very carefully, now I work out the track formation I want and build the point work in situ adjusting as I go, the only exception being the two three way points I built which I needed two goes to get right and were built on an SMPplan. My track isn't perfect but I can say I built it and because of the way it was built it has a more natural flow to it. Below gives some idea of what my track work looks like, all live and wired for DCC.

 

 

The four wheel coach is a Ratio bodge and the clerestories are butchered Triang, J70 is Silver Fox on a Bullant, other stock mix of kits and rtr all modified, most seen on here before I think, I describe my modelling as an 'artists impression.' 

 

The coffee stirrer is used for separating S&W kits away from magnets.

 

 

Martyn

Edited August 6, 2017 by mullie

[Focalplane]

All this talk of kit building reminds me that my most recent projects have been scratch building an engine shed and and office based on a strict prototype.  There are no instructions for such a thing and everything depends on research, photos and a basic knowledge of the materials to be used.  On the latter I simply used what I could find locally plus some Slaters Plastikard.  Brass strip proved to provide a very durable framework.  I found this in the local bricolage.  When it came to the roof tiles I managed with Scalescenes 4mm papers printed at 175% scale and glued on masonite (hardboard).  All very satisfying particularly as I got some very useful hints on Plastikard techniques from RMWebbers as well as really useful research results I never found myself.

 

I seriously doubt I could scratch build a locomotive so kits and RTR are my sources, the former being more satisfying.  But the scenery and buildings will probably be the greater achievement when the layout is finished.

 

(My word, I used the word "when" instead of "if")

[Enterprisingwestern]

With regard to instructions, a picture/diagram is worth a thousand words, Airfix two bob kit instructions have rarely been bettered.

 

Mike.

[Focalplane]

Instructions?  Try this.  Before you even buy the kit!

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco%20Kit%20Pages/LMS%20Jinty.html

[RThompson]

I must admit, I hate writing instructions, it bores me to death as well as designing the etches on the computer.

 

The post war 100hp sentinel kit I'm fairly happy with the instructions as they are quite detailed in both text and illustrations as well as photos of both the model and real locos.

 

The assembly diagrams are hand drawn in my own time rather than on a computer.

 

http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/4swk003%20post%20war%20100hp%20sentinel%20instructions.pdf

 

http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/4slk004%204mm%20scale%2000emp4%20100hp%20pre%20war%20heavy%20be%20sentinel%20loco%20kit%20instructions.pdf

[Michael Edge]

I write the instructions and compile the parts list as I assemble the first test etch. We do get some complaints for not including an exploded diagram but these are very time consuming to do well. We do however include accurate (and printed exact size) CAD drawings for the entire loco showing all the parts - I don't think any other kit manufacturers do this.

[coachmann]

I did assembly instructions for the Cambrian 2-4-0T for GEM and did an exploded drawing. Being an artist, it seemed easier to me than writing everything!

[AndyID]

When everybody gets a 3D Printer, Tony, we'll all be out of work, magazines included !

 

And is that likely you may ask ?

 

Well once upon a time if you bought a computer you'd have needed a barn to put it in yet here we are today with such technology hanging out of our back pockets for the price of a good week end in Paris  with Lilly la Femme  - and that's not to mention Lazers in the living room with Winnie the Wife !

 

Allan

 

And, funnily enough. I just printed this sample of 00 track. But I doubt if 3D printers are about to make you or Tony redundant.

 

 

I'm trying to perfect the chairs so they look reasonably convincing and be strong enough to allow the rail to be threaded through them. When I started mucking about with this I really didn't think this level of detail would be possible, certainly not with my cheapo printer.

 

The idea here isn't to manufacture yards of track. That would be a bit too laborious. I'm trying to create a setup where I can crank out models for all sorts of turnouts for 3D printing by quickly assembling the various components in CAD. Naturally it's not quite that simple, but it's pretty straightforward once you get the hang of it.

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

In a perfect world, kit instructions would be written by someone who had built the kit but not designed it!!!  I accept that this is not as easy an ask as it might first appear.

It can be done, or, at least, I've done it. 

 

DJH used to send me bags of castings, sheets of etchings, some rudimentary drawings and request I build the new loco kit and write the instructions as I went along. The last two I did this for were the A2/2 and the Brighton Atlantic. I'd take photographs as I went along and the complete model was then sent back to DJH. 

 

Amazingly, everyone I've spoken to who have built the kits reckon they got on all right with them - probably because (as I always do) they ignored any instructions. 

 

I suppose it's symptomatic of the decline in the kit-building world that the likes of DJH are investing in no new 4mm loco kits, nor have done since 2003. Who can blame them? Having had a really great time at the Southwold Show over the weekend, Mo and I managed to sell every last one of the late John Brown's kit-built locos. One was a J11; an old BEC kit on a re-wheeled Tri-ang chassis. It was competently made (though there were one or two detail anomalies) and ran really well on its Romford wheels. We got £30.00 for it. Just on the stage was a retailer selling brand-new Bachmann RTR J11s (perfect in every way?) for under £50.00! I think I did well.

 

I'll post a report on the Southwold Show later.  

[Tony Wright]

As a novice at loco kit building, I need instructions which are accurate and reasonably comprehensive. My first,probably too ambitious project, was a PDK B16, which,although I completed, had pretty generic instructions. I'm not averse to supporting them with other guidance and photographs,etc but instructions should be a proper starting point. I thought the PDK stuff was a little light, but I worked through it.

 

The next kit I tackled was an ArthurK J77 where the instructions were very comprehensive. Even then, I supplemented them with photos and additional guidance. My main problem was not always knowing what the part of the loco actually was on such a detailed kit and therefore quite where it fitted. But these instructions also added to my broader knowledge of loco building for when it came to later builds.

 

I sometimes think that some posters here are so experienced, have built so many models, and have developed their own ways to construct, that they forget that others are more in need of guidance. There is rarely a single way of doing things but accurate instructions should offer a way which,if followed, will produce a successful model,all things being equal. After that,one can start to develop personal idiosyncrasies which one finds to work better.

That is not to excuse instructions which are incorrect, for that is inexcusable. And I have no doubt that writing the things is not easy. But most who enter kitbuilding are not idiots,just less experienced than the designers, and need a little help... Unless you prefer they stick to RTR??

You're right John,

 

At the risk of exposing my pomposity, the likes of DJH would never send a new kit to an 'idiot' to test-build and write instructions. 

 

It might well be that an 'idiot' buys the kit and attempts to build it and makes a total hash of it, but he/she won't be the first to have put it together. 

 

In my case, I had to try and put aside my own personal prejudices and preferences to some extent in writing the instructions; but, only up to a point. For instance, though DJH always recommended the 'American' style of pick-up arrangement, where the loco is live to one side and the tender to the other (coupled by an insulated drawbar), I think this system is awful. There is no way of testing a chassis on the road by itself, the risk of loco and tender accidentally touching is ever-present and it's anathema to DCC (though, so am I). I'd mention the American way, but strongly recommend separate pick-ups. 

[kandc_au]

If you have never built a loco before, what this video:

The bloke in this video would have to be the best presenter I have seen on kit building.

I only wish I had seen this before I did my 2 collets but rest assured I have learnt more in the first 1 1/2hr than in all the questions answered on message boards and what I have read in all the books and magazines....and that is a lot of reading!

Be warned 5' 38" of video but worth every bit so far seen.

 

Khris

 

 

Mods: have I done this link right??

Edited August 7, 2017 by kandc_au

[Tony Wright]

Just a quick note on the Southwold Show over the weekend...........

 

It was a wonderful event, very well organised by Rob and his team, well-attended and with a splendid range of layouts, traders and demonstrators. Though certainly not 'splendid', I was one of the last-mentioned. 

 

May I please thank those to whom I spoke (particularly those who liked my new book!) and to all who bought the John Brown locos? I didn't do much in the way of loco-doctoring, though a percentage of the loco and book sales means another £100.00+ going to Cancer Research. My only real 'patient' was an N Gauge DCC-fitted A1. Fancy giving something like that for me to 'treat', especially as the loco in question (representing a roller bearing example) had one too many lubricators! I pointed the chap to a DCC-specialist and his problem was solved. 

 

The two best layouts in the show in my opinion were both finescale, both GWR and, in one case, DCC-operated. 

 

 

Originally built by Allen Martin, Lambourne in 2mm FS is exquisite. It ran beautifully. 

 

 

 

Sandford and Banwell is Jeff Day's latest essay in P4, this time a roundy-roundy. It is brilliant, and proves (even to a heretic like me) that P4 can be made to work perfectly; but, only (as with any system) if the trackwork is very well made and accurate (tautology?) and all the locos and stock are perfectly-matched to it. All of which requires a very high degree of mechanical skill level - far higher than some P4 modellers (in my experience) seem to have, visually pretty though their creations might be. St. Merryn is another example where these principles of accuracy are followed, resulting in perfect running. 

 

Some much 'cruder' scale/gauge creations didn't run quite so well. 

 

My thanks to all who made the Southwold Show so enjoyable. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Mallard60022]

And, funnily enough. I just printed this sample of 00 track. But I doubt if 3D printers are about to make you or Tony redundant.

 

DSCN3363a.jpg

 

I'm trying to perfect the chairs so they look reasonably convincing and be strong enough to allow the rail to be threaded through them. When I started mucking about with this I really didn't think this level of detail would be possible, certainly not with my cheapo printer.

 

The idea here isn't to manufacture yards of track. That would be a bit too laborious. I'm trying to create a setup where I can crank out models for all sorts of turnouts for 3D printing by quickly assembling the various components in CAD. Naturally it's not quite that simple, but it's pretty straightforward once you get the hang of it.

 

Andy

Those look damn fine to me. What an amazing invention this 3D Printer is.

Phil