Wright writes.....

[St Enodoc]

I love this thread ! 

 

Now we have battleships that I don't understand as well as locos !

 

Keep the broadsides coming guys !

 

Allan

The only battleships I understand were four squares long. Cruisers were three, destroyers two and submarines just one.

[mullie]

I find all the battleship stuff fascinating thanks for posting.

 

Martyn

Edited August 18, 2017 by mullie

[Headstock]

The only battleships I understand were four squares long. Cruisers were three, destroyers two and submarines just one.

 

How about the LMS Jubilee class locomotives named after Grand fleet battleships, such as Colossus, Conqueror, Thunderer, Warspite, Ajax, Orion, Bellerophon, Revenge and of course Dreadnought herself.

[Willie Whizz]

How about the LMS Jubilee class locomotives named after Grand fleet battleships, such as Colossus, Conqueror, Thunderer, Warspite, Ajax, Orion, Bellerophon, Revenge and of course Dreadnought herself.

 

Oh yes - and those locomotives in the same class named after admirals too - some historical (Frobisher, Hawke etc.) and some from the recent Great War (Tyrwhitt, Keyes etc.).  No WWI generals though, IIRC - wonder why ...?  Or maybe I don't need to ...

 

Luckiest admiral ever, surely, was Sir Frederick Doveton Sturdee.  Early in WWI he was responsible for the Admiralty's faulty deployment of ships which allowed a German cruiser squadron under Admiral Graf Spee to overwhelm a weak British cruiser squadron at Coronel off the coast of Chile - the first significant RN defeat in well over a century.  Sent out in near-disgrace to the South Atlantic to co-ordinate the hunt for the German ships, his hastily-assembled force (including two battle-cruisers, Invincible & Inflexible) arrives at Port Stanley in the Falkland Islands for a couple of days to replenish with coal before dispersing for a task which was expected to take many weeks or months.  And lo and behold, von Spee's ships turn-up on his very doorstep at dawn the next day, intending to raid and burn those coal stocks, and drops right into Sturdee's hands!  So he puts his trousers on and sets off in hot pursuit, and wins a victory (as indeed so he should, with such overwhelming force).

 

Sturdee becomes a national hero, is made a Baronet, is given a plum job in the Grand Fleet and, eventually, even gets an LMS Jubilee locomotive (45647) named after him.  Admiral Cradock - 'Poor Kit Cradock' - with his obsolescent ships "scraped off the dockyard wall" and hastily manned with unpracticed reservists, who took them gallantly into action off Coronel knowing he had neither the force to fight nor the speed to run away, has just a small plaque in a dark corner of Westminster Abbey.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Willie Whizz

[Focalplane]

Fascinating but I've been all at sea for several days without leaving land.

 

I do like the diversion to Jubilees, however.  It's how us Midlanders learned our Colonial geography, Greek mythology and a few names of ships and admirals.  Sturdee was, for a while, one of the famous Bushbury Joobs.  But my favourite was and is my avatar, Polyphemus, 45688.

[Tony Teague]

Shouldn't this discussion be on RNWeb, rather than RM.......?

[Headstock]

Shouldn't this discussion be on RNWeb, rather than RM.......?

 

Look wooden walls, or is it a brassclad? I do trains too, honest.

[Headstock]

And still in the fitting out basin.

[AndyID]

Wheels.

 

When I laid my Peco code 100 trackwork (on foam underlay) station throat, which includes two double slips my test train was 10 Lima coaches, which I could pull / push through all pointwork settings at any speed without any trouble whatsoever.

 

All was well, until I ran Bachmann and other plastic wheeled stock - derailment problems a plenty on reversing over the slips. Hornby Pullmans (metal wheels) worse - though the floppy couplings were to blame here.

 

Lima wheels are metal, and accurately factory set at gauge. I also find a rake of O gauge Lima bogie tank cars & bogie flatcars run fantastically well on my O gauge layout - they also sound the business, giving a nice clickety clack !!.

 

I wish I could buy Lima wheels - I would fit loads of them !!

 

Brit15

 

I like Lima wheels too. They are nice and heavy, and they run true. I re-profile them to reduce the flange depth.

 

BTW, they are not "coned" at all. The treads surfaces are parallel with the axles.

[AndyID]

Fascinating but I've been all at sea for several days without leaving land.

 

I do like the diversion to Jubilees, however.  It's how us Midlanders learned our Colonial geography, Greek mythology and a few names of ships and admirals.  Sturdee was, for a while, one of the famous Bushbury Joobs.  But my favourite was and is my avatar, Polyphemus, 45688.

 

"Invincible" was the first green engine I ever saw. It was picking up mineral wagons at the local coal sidings.

[davidw]

Look wooden walls, or is it a brassclad? I do trains too, honest.

What's the origins of the coach?

[drmditch]

 

I would also take exception to the 'eggshells armed with hammers' analogy mentioned up thread, When you remove the issue around ammunition handling, an issue being one of human error rather than ship design or concept failure, All the evidence shows that British Battlecruisers stood up remarkably well to German shell fire. Using Tiger again as an example, She received about twenty hits during the action, seventeen of which were heavy calibre projectiles. It's quite clear that if the Battlecruisers had been observing the correct safety precautions at Jutland, not a single Battlecruiser would have been lost during the action. Conversely, if the German ships had British cordite, three Battlecruisers and at lest two Battleships would have gone the way of Queen Mary.

 

I think that the 'eggshells armed with hammers' phrase came from W.S Churchill. I would not particularly agree with him, but perhaps we had better set course for a discussion of what WSC was or was not responsible for in 1914-15. That would get far too political! (But perhaps worth mentioning is that before and after WW1 WSC was in favour of nationalising the railway system!) Tiger I think was the latest and best armoured of the Battle Cruisers in 1915-16.

 

It was my post that mentioned Andrew Gordon's book 'The Rules of the Game'. Unlike the post just above, I find his leaving the 5th BS at the critical moment to discuss the leadership/command/communication crisis which deprived the BCF of it's heavyweight support, very interesting indeed. 

 

As regards Sturdee, yes he was responsible, together with the operational interference of the civilian First Lord, for the dispositions which sent Craddock and several hundred men to their deaths. He was also responsible for the obsolete 12,000 ton armoured-cruisers Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy patrolling  the Broad Fourteens. But perhaps it it is not his fault that neither he nor the admiral and captains concerned really understood the submarine threat. He was also lucky at Albrohos Rocks that Captain Luce of the Glasgow persuaded him to proceed to the Falklands more rapidly than he, Sturdee, would otherwise have done. 

 

However, I hope that Mr Wright is not getting cross because of this thread getting diverted onto naval history.

 

I must get on with railway design and construction, and I'm halfway through a GN Cattle wagon as well.I think that the original of this may have been built at the same time as some of the ships discussed above, but lasted slightly longer!

[stewartingram]

I've got a bagful in the garage somewhere, bogies included, so if you want to get your cheque book out!!

 

Mike.

 

I hope you've cleaned the pizza off them?

 

Stewart

[Enterprisingwestern]

"Invincible" was the first green engine I ever saw. It was picking up mineral wagons at the local coal sidings.

 

A green jubilee in the Pacific north west, bet that was a rare cop!

 

Mike.

[Willie Whizz]

Fascinating but I've been all at sea for several days without leaving land.

 

I do like the diversion to Jubilees, however.  It's how us Midlanders learned our Colonial geography, Greek mythology and a few names of ships and admirals.  Sturdee was, for a while, one of the famous Bushbury Joobs.  But my favourite was and is my avatar, Polyphemus, 45688.

 

Me too!  Learned a lot that way, some of which has even genuinely stood me in good stead in later life.  Mostly lying on the parapet of London Road Bridge ('Elf'n'Safety' - wossat then?) at the western end of Nottingham Midland Station all the hot Summer day, with my pals the Coombes brothers, around this time of year in the late 50s and early 60s, with only a bottle of water, an Ian Allen Combine and, If I was lucky, 4d. to buy a frozen 'Lovely Jubbly' ...

 

I am deeply ashamed to confess that we saw 45611 Hong Kong so very, very often we grew sick of the bloomin' sight of her and would actually boo as the engine (usually immaculate) came off her train went under the bridge to run around the loop.  [Sigh]  I'd give my eye teeth to be there again and see her again.

 

Mind you, if I'd lived near the ECML I'd probably know very little about the British Empire, the Ancient Greeks or Naval History - but I'd know an awful lot about Horse-racing and Wildfowl!

[Clearwater]

Were there notably weaker history results where you 50s schoolboys couldn't see the King class regularly in order to learn the order of English kings??? Or perhaps 1962 marks the start of the decline of standards in history....

[asmay2002]

I think that the 'eggshells armed with hammers' phrase came from W.S Churchill.

Jackie Fisher

[jjb1970]

Gordon's "The Rules of the Game" is a superb book, the naval history of WW1 is particularly well served with some wonderful books.

 

Jutland remains a highly contentious subject over a hundred years after the battle. The idea that the RN lost more ships and men but achieved a strategic victory is a bit subtle for some. The story has always tended to focus on the battle cruiser action for obvious reasons which has led to a rather distorted view of the qualities of RN warships of the era. The fact that the battle cruiser force took such heavy losses and shot so poorly has always obscured the fact that the battleships gunnery was excellent and that if the battleships had made contact an hour (or less than an hour earlier) the German highs seas fleet would quite probably have been removed from the war. Even if looking at the battle cruisers, the paper bag comparisons are grossly simplified as with proper shell handling procedures the armour and protective arrangements were nothing like as light as their reputation suggests.

[Headstock]

What's the origins of the coach?

 

Mostly MJT, Hornby bogies and a few scratch elements

 

Me too!  Learned a lot that way, some of which has even genuinely stood me in good stead in later life.  Mostly lying on the parapet of London Road Bridge ('Elf'n'Safety' - wossat then?) at the western end of Nottingham Midland Station all the hot Summer day, with my pals the Coombes brothers, around this time of year in the late 50s and early 60s, with only a bottle of water, an Ian Allen Combine and, If I was lucky, 4d. to buy a frozen 'Lovely Jubbly' ...

 

I am deeply ashamed to confess that we saw 45611 Hong Kong so very, very often we grew sick of the bloomin' sight of her and would actually boo as the engine (usually immaculate) came off her train went under the bridge to run around the loop.  [Sigh]  I'd give my eye teeth to be there again and see her again.

 

Mind you, if I'd lived near the ECML I'd probably know very little about the British Empire, the Ancient Greeks or Naval History - but I'd know an awful lot about Horse-racing and Wildfowl!

 

Don't forget Fox hunting and the Novels of Sir Walter Scott.

 

I think that the 'eggshells armed with hammers' phrase came from W.S Churchill. I would not particularly agree with him, but perhaps we had better set course for a discussion of what WSC was or was not responsible for in 1914-15. That would get far too political! (But perhaps worth mentioning is that before and after WW1 WSC was in favour of nationalising the railway system!) Tiger I think was the latest and best armoured of the Battle Cruisers in 1915-16.

 

It was my post that mentioned Andrew Gordon's book 'The Rules of the Game'. Unlike the post just above, I find his leaving the 5th BS at the critical moment to discuss the leadership/command/communication crisis which deprived the BCF of it's heavyweight support, very interesting indeed. 

 

As regards Sturdee, yes he was responsible, together with the operational interference of the civilian First Lord, for the dispositions which sent Craddock and several hundred men to their deaths. He was also responsible for the obsolete 12,000 ton armoured-cruisers Aboukir, Hogue and Cressy patrolling  the Broad Fourteens. But perhaps it it is not his fault that neither he nor the admiral and captains concerned really understood the submarine threat. He was also lucky at Albrohos Rocks that Captain Luce of the Glasgow persuaded him to proceed to the Falklands more rapidly than he, Sturdee, would otherwise have done. 

 

However, I hope that Mr Wright is not getting cross because of this thread getting diverted onto naval history.

 

I must get on with railway design and construction, and I'm halfway through a GN Cattle wagon as well.I think that the original of this may have been built at the same time as some of the ships discussed above, but lasted slightly longer!

 

I reckon that Tony has been searching through the archives for the last week in preparation for his new book.' A modellers guide to Dreadnoughts of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and LNER dock tank locomotives, a combined volume'. Studee was lucky indeed, never in the history of Naval warfare has an ancient, out of range, beached battle ship driven away an enemy squadron by skimming a practice projectile across the sea like a bouncing bomb to hit it's target!

[Focalplane]

From memory, which may not be reliable, two other Bushbury Joobs were Fisher and Implacable, did the one ever command the other?

 

Those platform three London expresses were the best at New Street, always well turned out. Over at Snow Hill the other shed did a good job as well on platform 7.

 

Somewhere I have nameplates in 4mm for Fisher and Implacable. I will never use them, so PM me if interested and I will search for them next month.

[AndyID]

A green jubilee in the Pacific north west, bet that was a rare cop!

 

Mike.

 

No, it was in the South West. The G&SWR line through Paisley.

[The Johnster]

Me too!  Learned a lot that way, some of which has even genuinely stood me in good stead in later life.  Mostly lying on the parapet of London Road Bridge ('Elf'n'Safety' - wossat then?) at the western end of Nottingham Midland Station all the hot Summer day, with my pals the Coombes brothers, around this time of year in the late 50s and early 60s, with only a bottle of water, an Ian Allen Combine and, If I was lucky, 4d. to buy a frozen 'Lovely Jubbly' ...

 

I am deeply ashamed to confess that we saw 45611 Hong Kong so very, very often we grew sick of the bloomin' sight of her and would actually boo as the engine (usually immaculate) came off her train went under the bridge to run around the loop.  [Sigh]  I'd give my eye teeth to be there again and see her again.

 

Mind you, if I'd lived near the ECML I'd probably know very little about the British Empire, the Ancient Greeks or Naval History - but I'd know an awful lot about Horse-racing and Wildfowl!

 

As a GW man, I learned a lot about castles, stately homes, and a little about Earls, but was too young for the broad gauge classical education of Greek gods and heroes or the Churchward Saints and their various literary allusions.  Mind you, the Canton Brits taught me that there are all sorts of names for the planet Venus, including Venus, Polaris, and a little about Wagner.  I still think that Rising Star is the best name for a locomotive I have ever come across!

Edited August 18, 2017 by The Johnster

[Headstock]

As a GW man, I learned a lot about castles, stately homes, and a little about Earls, but was too young for the broad gauge classical education of Greek gods and heroes or the Churchward Saints and their various literary allusions.  Mind you, the Canton Brits taught me that there are all sorts of names for the planet Venus, including Venus, Polaris, and a little about Wagner.  I still think that Rising Star is the best name for a locomotive I have ever come across!

 

I always liked Morning Star or even better Lode star. How about some proper names of Stars, like Sun Star, only the LNER already has that one. Canopus? no that's back to the battleship that beached at the Falkland islands mentioned above. How about Antares, Capella, Altair, even Bellatrix, or Betlegeuse. I would love a GWR loco called Betlegeuse.

[glo41f]

Gents

 

This thread never ceases to amaze with its erudition. Being an army type, I had little interest in the Andrew and I have learned a lot from the Jutland gallop. All very interesting indeed.

 

I have also greatly enjoyed a film on you tube shot by our leader of the great Retford model railway surely one of the best around these days. Thank you for making it available. The running seems as good as that seen on LB and it is indeed a rare treat to see trains running at full tilt over the complex pointwork. It is noticeable that the realism is enhanced by the low camera angle which makes the models appear at eye level which is surely their best aspect. Try as I might I cannot get enthusiastic about seeing coach roofs and wagon tops as that is not a view I am familiar with. I ask what the point is of putting brake gear etc and detailing underframes when in practice we do not see them except in cruel static close up shots? The near the model is raised to eye level the better one appreciates the realism. Could we have some more Retford please?

 

Martin Long

[APOLLO]

Locomotive names - for me the "Britannia's"  had most to offer, a bit of British history, astronomy & geography, At the end most were un-named though some had painted on names. I remember 70010 Owen Glendower on 8F Springs Branch one day, on one side the name was painted on english style, on the other was the welsh version "Owain Glyndwr" She was nice & clean also - I have a photo somewhere.

 

Back in the mid 60's the few Jubs left were mostly unnamed, Princesses & Duchesses had gone, as had the Pats & Scots & Clans. A couple of named Black 5's and that was about it.

 

A few "new" named diesels could be seen, Big D's (EE Type 4) with their ocean liner themes were common, an occasional Peak (D1-D10), and now and again a named western region Brush 4 (47). For some reason "Thor" was a common visitor through Wigan.

 

I even miss the named 86's & 87's these days !!!

 

Brit15