Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

... but not the Urie/Maunsell 4-6-0s, which could be regarded as the true progenitors of the Hall/Black 5/B1/5MT outside-cylinder mixed-traffic 4-6-0? Shame.

[great central]

Schools class Cheltenham did a railtour from Nottingham and at least worked a service train back to the south afterwards. Unsure if it had worked it's way northwards though?

[County of Yorkshire]

... but not the Urie/Maunsell 4-6-0s, which could be regarded as the true progenitors of the Hall/Black 5/B1/5MT outside-cylinder mixed-traffic 4-6-0? Shame.

 

Are you joking?

 

Swindon have sent out the reconditioning squad... they will be with you within the hour. 

 

 

CoY

[micklner]

Quite splendid work, as always Tim; thanks for posting. 

 

Though all the magnificent P2s eventually looked the same (apart from cab/tender/boiler/chimney variations), my personal favourite is the first manifestation of EARL MARISCHAL, before the huge smoke deflectors were added. 

 

P2 22 in service.jpg

 

I built this from an ACE kit (shrunk-down to 4mm from a set of 7mm etchings). It was an 'interesting' build, and is now owned by Mark Allatt. Ian Rathbone painted it for me (I don't have your skills in that regard). 

 

Beautiful Loco , Red nameplates never seen that mentioned before ?. 

 

 

For comparison, my Resin nosed ,Hornby conversion which I posted a while back. You can't have too many P2's !!!.

 

Edited April 9, 2018 by micklner

[Tony Wright]

Schools class Cheltenham did a railtour from Nottingham and at least worked a service train back to the south afterwards. Unsure if it had worked it's way northwards though?

CHELTENHAM worked several service trains on the GC around the time of its railtour. According to the crews, it was the best loco they had at the time.

 

The SR weren't too bothered about getting it back. I built a model of it, just to use it on the workings on Charwelton. 

[Compound2632]

Are you joking?

 

Swindon have sent out the reconditioning squad... they will be with you within the hour. 

 

 

CoY

 

You're quite right there, my apologies. Mention of the Hall, with its inside Stephenson motion, in that list was an aberration. Urie's H15 of 1914, with its accessible outside Walschaerts motion, takes pride of place in the development of the British mixed-traffic 4-6-0.

[Headstock]

Did any SR engines work north of Oxford onto the GC at this or any other period? To complete the set of mixed-traffic 4-6-0s...

 

The most commonly recorded and photographed SR locomotives that worked trains on the London extension were the King Arthur class locomotives. They on occasion work the summer Saturdays holiday trains and specials to places such as the Nottingham goose fair. Usually they would work as far north as far as Leicester Central on such trains as the Pool Bradford and the Bournemouth Sheffield, all gone by the nineteen sixties though. The Southern locomotive would often take on a pilot engine, a Leicester B1 or a WR Hall for the run up to Leicester. There are quite a few pictures of Arthur's being turned on the seventy foot turntable at  Leicester Central station, on at least one occasion an S15 was recorded on these duties. The last indigenous 4-6-0 to work an express over the London extension was Ardsley sheds B4 Immingham. The loco found its way to Leicester shed in 1950 and was appropriated by the staff to work the southbound Newcastle York Bournemouth and returned later in the day. 

[Captain Kernow]

Micromagnets on the lamps and mini office staples for the brackets.

Interesting, thanks.

 

Sounds like I'd need some kind of tutorial on how to (a) find some micromagnets and (b) fix them to the lamps.

 

I suspect my Optivisor is going to be required!

Edited April 9, 2018 by Captain Kernow

[The Stationmaster]

Because of the variety of locomotives from all regions on shed for a Wembley  Football  or Hockey event in the 60's it amazes me that no one appears to have modelled 14D Neasden Shed in any gauge,unless anyone knows different.

As for modelling water troughs, I would have thought leaks and shorting would have been major issues.

 

Coat ,Hat Door.  

 

Regards,Silly O F

 

But at other times Neasden was a pretty quiet (dead) pace to visit.  At one time it was regular halt on my London shed bash as it was on the trolleybus route between Willesden Junction and Cricklewood and I never saw more than 3 engines on shed and I never saw a single member of railway staff anywhere near the place - presumably they were either round at the pub or seriously engaged in sleep or a card school in the messroom.  Aylesbury was in some respects more exciting because although it only boasted three engines present on the Sunday when I visited they were at least to the designs of three different members of the Big Four.

... but not the Urie/Maunsell 4-6-0s, which could be regarded as the true progenitors of the Hall/Black 5/B1/5MT outside-cylinder mixed-traffic 4-6-0? Shame.

 

Interesting theory, but no more than a theory I'm afraid.  in technical terms the lead came from the Churchward designs although his original proposal for a mixed traffic 4-6-0 didn't really appear until the arrival of the 'Granges' - the 'Halls' were an extremely useful adaptation of the high;y successful 'saint' to a mixd traffic format and led Stanier directly to the Black 5 from which the BR Standard 5 drew much of its design heritage.  And of course unlike the Urie design the VChurchward engines could steam, and do so un der all conditions - something which carried on with Collett and which Stanier reproduced in the Black Five.

 

But if we are to look for the true origin of the British mixed traffic 4-6-9 we need to look somewhere else and a lot further north.  Unarguably I think the first 4-6-0 designed in. Britain from the outset as a mixed traffic engine was the NER S2 (LNER B15) of 1911 (3 years before Urie produced his effort) and all 20 were in service before Urie's engine appeared - but they had a reputation for poor steaming and needed careful handling to get the best out of them.  But Raven got it well and truly right with his second design of mixed traffic 4-6-0, the S3 although initially they were for a short while designated as 'fast goods engines' before being titled 'mixed traffic' a total of 70 were built over 5/6 years and as LNR Class B16 they lasted into the early 1960s still being higly regarded by enginemen and preferred by many of that ilk to the B1 of much later design.

 

So the mixed traffic 4-6-0 appeared not on the LSWR but on the NER and the technical line of development that led to the Black 5 and Standard 5 originated sat swindon and not Eastleigh.  Oh and forget ye not that the inside Stephenson valvegear of various GWR 4-6-0s gave them considerable advantage in getting trains away and the valvegear was more than tough enough to survive oiling from a well aimed bucket full of oil without bearings getting overheated.

[Tony Wright]

One interesting point about the BR Standard Fives built at Doncaster is that they were the only 4-6-0s ever built at The Plant. Proving, I suppose, that the LNER's principal works liked wide fireboxes for its big locos. 

[PMP]

 

I wish the group who've bought Charwelton have a success in turning into a 'might have been' scene, where the line was not closed and blue diesels ran. Can they possibly have this wonderful variety, though? I think not. 

 In some ways it'll be a 'generation' thing and tied in with location. For my watching days of that era at the Welwyn bottleneck the staple diet was 47's, 55's, 31's and then 45/46's with the occasional 40, 37 and rarely a 25. The greater majority of the traffic was passenger too. For Charwelton, I'd imagine the viewer would have seen 47's 44/45/46's 40's 31's 25's, pairs of 20's with a few 37's thrown in to the mix. I suppose there's the possibility of Westerns rarely coming past too. I'd have loved to have seen that sort of mix regularly which perhaps not as varied as steam days, would have been a good mix I feel in the BR Green to Blue transition. There still would have been a good mix of varied freight and parcels stock too, without looking at the possible DMU varieties. 'Different times', in the real sense of the words.

[2ManySpams]

But at other times Neasden was a pretty quiet (dead) pace to visit. At one time it was regular halt on my London shed bash as it was on the trolleybus route between Willesden Junction and Cricklewood and I never saw more than 3 engines on shed and I never saw a single member of railway staff anywhere near the place - presumably they were either round at the pub or seriously engaged in sleep or a card school in the messroom. Aylesbury was in some respects more exciting because although it only boasted three engines present on the Sunday when I visited they were at least to the designs of three different members of the Big Four.

 

 

Interesting theory, but no more than a theory I'm afraid. in technical terms the lead came from the Churchward designs although his original proposal for a mixed traffic 4-6-0 didn't really appear until the arrival of the 'Granges' - the 'Halls' were an extremely useful adaptation of the high;y successful 'saint' to a mixd traffic format and led Stanier directly to the Black 5 from which the BR Standard 5 drew much of its design heritage. And of course unlike the Urie design the VChurchward engines could steam, and do so un der all conditions - something which carried on with Collett and which Stanier reproduced in the Black Five.

 

But if we are to look for the true origin of the British mixed traffic 4-6-9 we need to look somewhere else and a lot further north. Unarguably I think the first 4-6-0 designed in. Britain from the outset as a mixed traffic engine was the NER S2 (LNER B15) of 1911 (3 years before Urie produced his effort) and all 20 were in service before Urie's engine appeared - but they had a reputation for poor steaming and needed careful handling to get the best out of them. But Raven got it well and truly right with his second design of mixed traffic 4-6-0, the S3 although initially they were for a short while designated as 'fast goods engines' before being titled 'mixed traffic' a total of 70 were built over 5/6 years and as LNR Class B16 they lasted into the early 1960s still being higly regarded by enginemen and preferred by many of that ilk to the B1 of much later design.

 

So the mixed traffic 4-6-0 appeared not on the LSWR but on the NER and the technical line of development that led to the Black 5 and Standard 5 originated sat swindon and not Eastleigh. Oh and forget ye not that the inside Stephenson valvegear of various GWR 4-6-0s gave them considerable advantage in getting trains away and the valvegear was more than tough enough to survive oiling from a well aimed bucket full of oil without bearings getting overheated.

Very interesting and informative as usual Mike. The only point I would query is that I thought that the first Black 5s (in common with other early Stanier designs) we're not very good steamers? Didn't he have to play with the superheating and fireboxes for a while?? Something to do with the LMS coal not being as good as the Welsh stuff used by the GWR or is that one of those modeller urban myths?

 

PS, does your anecdote mean we can encourage Robin to chuck buckets of oil over his locos?

[Compound2632]

But at other times Neasden was a pretty quiet (dead) pace to visit.  At one time it was regular halt on my London shed bash as it was on the trolleybus route between Willesden Junction and Cricklewood and I never saw more than 3 engines on shed and I never saw a single member of railway staff anywhere near the place - presumably they were either round at the pub or seriously engaged in sleep or a card school in the messroom.  Aylesbury was in some respects more exciting because although it only boasted three engines present on the Sunday when I visited they were at least to the designs of three different members of the Big Four.

 

Interesting theory, but no more than a theory I'm afraid.  in technical terms the lead came from the Churchward designs although his original proposal for a mixed traffic 4-6-0 didn't really appear until the arrival of the 'Granges' - the 'Halls' were an extremely useful adaptation of the high;y successful 'saint' to a mixd traffic format and led Stanier directly to the Black 5 from which the BR Standard 5 drew much of its design heritage.  And of course unlike the Urie design the VChurchward engines could steam, and do so un der all conditions - something which carried on with Collett and which Stanier reproduced in the Black Five.

 

But if we are to look for the true origin of the British mixed traffic 4-6-9 we need to look somewhere else and a lot further north.  Unarguably I think the first 4-6-0 designed in. Britain from the outset as a mixed traffic engine was the NER S2 (LNER B15) of 1911 (3 years before Urie produced his effort) and all 20 were in service before Urie's engine appeared - but they had a reputation for poor steaming and needed careful handling to get the best out of them.  But Raven got it well and truly right with his second design of mixed traffic 4-6-0, the S3 although initially they were for a short while designated as 'fast goods engines' before being titled 'mixed traffic' a total of 70 were built over 5/6 years and as LNR Class B16 they lasted into the early 1960s still being higly regarded by enginemen and preferred by many of that ilk to the B1 of much later design.

 

So the mixed traffic 4-6-0 appeared not on the LSWR but on the NER and the technical line of development that led to the Black 5 and Standard 5 originated sat swindon and not Eastleigh.  Oh and forget ye not that the inside Stephenson valvegear of various GWR 4-6-0s gave them considerable advantage in getting trains away and the valvegear was more than tough enough to survive oiling from a well aimed bucket full of oil without bearings getting overheated.

 

I was wondering which Great Western enthusiast would rise first to my bait! I wouldn't really try to maintain that the Black and Standard 5s didn't owe a lot to the Hall. Mike, you are demonstrating your broad-mindedness by acknowledging Raven's contribution. But I would stand by the point that Urie was first in the field with a 4-6-0 with everything on the outside, an arrangement many would regard as a Good Thing.

 

And, the point has been established that outside-cylinder 4-6-0s of all four groups and BR could have been seen on the GC line in the early 60s, though I guess one would have had to be a very lucky spotter to see them all in one day!

[landscapes]

Beautiful Loco , Red nameplates never seen that mentioned before ?. 

 

 

For comparison, my Resin nosed ,Hornby conversion which I posted a while back. You can't have too many P2's !!!.

 

fullsizeoutput_9ca.jpeg

 

That Model looks stunning Mick.

 

Almost makes me want to model Haymarket in the early 1940's, But I do like Brunswick green so I will have to stick to late 1950's.

 

Regards

 

David

[CF MRC]

Beautiful Loco , Red nameplates never seen that mentioned before ?. 

 

 

For comparison, my Resin nosed ,Hornby conversion which I posted a while back. You can't have too many P2's !!!.

 

fullsizeoutput_9ca.jpeg

Smart engine, Mick. There was a lengthy discussion, which kicked off with post

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/?view=findpost&p=3054452

 

Tim

[The Stationmaster]

Very interesting and informative as usual Mike. The only point I would query is that I thought that the first Black 5s (in common with other early Stanier designs) we're not very good steamers? Didn't he have to play with the superheating and fireboxes for a while?? Something to do with the LMS coal not being as good as the Welsh stuff used by the GWR or is that one of those modeller urban myths?

 

PS, does your anecdote mean we can encourage Robin to chuck buckets of oil over his locos?

 

The 5XPs were certainly poor at first with insufficient superheat temperature but I'm not sure if the Black 5s suffered quite as much from the problem although they did of course go through a succession of boiler developments to get to their final state.

 

I was wondering which Great Western enthusiast would rise first to my bait! I wouldn't really try to maintain that the Black and Standard 5s didn't owe a lot to the Hall. Mike, you are demonstrating your broad-mindedness by acknowledging Raven's contribution. But I would stand by the point that Urie was first in the field with a 4-6-0 with everything on the outside, an arrangement many would regard as a Good Thing.

 

And, the point has been established that outside-cylinder 4-6-0s of all four groups and BR could have been seen on the GC line in the early 60s, though I guess one would have had to be a very lucky spotter to see them all in one day!

 

It' s an interesting debate about outside valvegear and over the years it has followed several lines of thought in Britain.  Churchward went inside in the search for greater bearing surfaces and the robustness of later GWR valvegear showed that to be a proven point but there was a price in preparation time and accessibility.  And perhaps often overlooked is that the inside layout was probably more suitable, and allowed greater bearing surfaces for Stephenson gear than would have been the case if it was hung on the outside - and the GWR made a lot of use of Stephenson gear.

 

Bulleid of course took the inside valvegear idea to its ultimate British application in his pacifics and one feature of them which is often conveniently forgotten is how he simplified preparation work and reduced prep times in the process.  It's probably not often remarked but the Driver's preparation time for a Merchant Navy in its original form was substantially less than the time allowed to prep a Midland 4F.  OK so Bulleid''s ideas were - for various reasons - not as successful in practice as he had intended but,  perhaps more so than Churchward (and Riddles ), he definitely aimed to ease the Engineman's lot in a number of ways and achieve greater efficiency in at least part of the process.

[LBRJ]

Surely the Highland Railway started the theme of British 4-6-0 locomotives with the Jones Goods introduced in 1894? 

[Headstock]

I was wondering which Great Western enthusiast would rise first to my bait! I wouldn't really try to maintain that the Black and Standard 5s didn't owe a lot to the Hall. Mike, you are demonstrating your broad-mindedness by acknowledging Raven's contribution. But I would stand by the point that Urie was first in the field with a 4-6-0 with everything on the outside, an arrangement many would regard as a Good Thing.

 

And, the point has been established that outside-cylinder 4-6-0s of all four groups and BR could have been seen on the GC line in the early 60s, though I guess one would have had to be a very lucky spotter to see them all in one day!

 

I think that it would be highly unlikely that an SR outside cylinder 4-6-0 would have been seen on the GC in the 1960's. They were not that common even in the 1950's, their appearance was directly related to the large volume of Summer Saturday traffic at that time. As many as 20 express trains of this type could pass through Leicester Central in an afternoon. All this traffic required motive power from whatever source could supply it. By the 60's this traffic was in severe decline, partly due to the motor car and also because the lines new owners tried their hardest to discourage it. The King Arthur's had pretty much been displaced on these workings in the mid to late 50's and as far as I know the Lord Nelsons have never been recorded as working over the London extension. Both types of locomotive were extinct by the end of 1962 anyway.

[2ManySpams]

The 5XPs were certainly poor at first with insufficient superheat temperature but I'm not sure if the Black 5s suffered quite as much from the problem although they did of course go through a succession of boiler developments to get to their final state.

You've forced me to dig out my old LMS Stanier books Mike by Haresnape and Nock.

 

Looks like the initial 70 Black 5 boilers were the best of the bunch of the earlier Stanier GWR style boilers, but ended up being improved in line with the measures taken to sort out the 5XP Jubilee boilers.

 

A few snippets...

 

 

 

 

Books long out of print, got my copies second hand over 30 yrs ago!

[Dave 46]

Hi Tony

 

Nice photo of the named B1, when I was trainspotting in the early sixties, named B1's were not very often seen down in the London area.

 

In fact I only ever saw two named B1's.

 

61003 Gazelle at Willsden MPD in 1964 I have no idea what it was doing there and 61238 Leslie Runcimann was at Derby MPD again in 1964.

 

Great days thanks for posting the photo brings back happy memories.

 

Regards

 

David

 

I'm sure remember 61008 Kudu being a regular on possibly the Master Cutler in the late 50's or early 60's.  I have a recollection of it standing at the end of the down platform at High Wycombe fairly regularly. But, it was a long time ago.

 

Dave

[landscapes]

I'm sure remember 61008 Kudu being a regular on possibly the Master Cutler in the late 50's or early 60's.  I have a recollection of it standing at the end of the down platform at High Wycombe fairly regularly. But, it was a long time ago.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

I do believe that named B1's were sometimes seen at Marylebone Station even in the early to mid sixties, but it was a station I hardly ever visited with Kings Cross, St Pancras and Euston Stations all being close by.

 

Regards

 

David

[Compound2632]

You've forced me to dig out my old LMS Stanier books Mike by Haresnape and Nock.

 

Looks like the initial 70 Black 5 boilers were the best of the bunch of the earlier Stanier GWR style boilers, but ended up being improved in line with the measures taken to sort out the 5XP Jubilee boilers.

 

A few snippets...

 

rps20180409_195907.jpg

 

rps20180409_195941.jpg

 

rps20180409_200031.jpg

 

Books long out of print, got my copies second hand over 30 yrs ago!

 

Seeing Brian Haresnape's "Fouler Locomotives" on my shelves is guaranteed to raise a smile from my non-railway-enthusiast friends. (Yes I have such!)

[St Enodoc]

Interesting, thanks.

 

Sounds like I'd need some kind of tutorial on how to (a) find some micromagnets and (b) fix them to the lamps.

 

I suspect my Optivisor is going to be required!

Have a look here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/?view=findpost&p=3042202

[Tony Wright]

Hi Dave

 

I do believe that named B1's were sometimes seen at Marylebone Station even in the early to mid sixties, but it was a station I hardly ever visited with Kings Cross, St Pancras and Euston Stations all being close by.

 

Regards

 

David

David,

 

Though I never visited the southern end of the ex-GC main line, my memories in the Sheffield/Retford/Lincoln area are of seeing several named B1s, 61033 DIBATAG being the most common through Kiveton Park. Given its allocation to 41A at the time, then this was not unlikely. Doncaster's 61036 RALPH ASSHETON was a regular at Retford, as was Hull's 61215 WILLIAM HENTON CARVER at Doncaster. 

 

I must admit, I paid them little heed, especially when seen at Retford or Doncaster, because there were always much more exciting 'namers' to take an interest in. 61006 BLACKBUCK from Parkeston Quay was noted at Retford on the boat train one day (deputising for the usual B17?). Another Parkeston named B1 I saw was 61249 FITZHERBERT WRIGHT, observed on, of all places, Crewe South. I took its picture. One ex-namer, 61009 HARTEBEESTE (the plates were off), was seen on a siding at Worksop, having been withdrawn. On the two visits I made to Lincoln, 61026 OUREBI was present. 

 

We'd occasionally get named B1s at Chester, the most-unusual being 61022 SASSABY, standing (not stood) on 6A after working a summer extra into Chester. It's the only time I saw a Gateshead-based loco this far south west. Low Moor's 61039 STEINBOK also worked a special into Chester one day, from the Manchester direction. It came off its train in the General, reversed on the triangle, re-coupled, then headed off towards Crewe, then down the long-closed line to Malpas and Whitchurch. It seemed the special was for ramblers; does anyone have a date for this, please? There was at least one B1-hauled train along the N. Wales coast on a summer Saturday in the '50s, on one day hauled by 61024 ADDAX. I had no idea where Haverton Hill (its home shed) was, but the special must have originated in the North East. I actually saw a named B1 in North Wales, though I cannot now remember which one, at Connah's Quay on the ex-GC (my mother threw out many of my notebooks when I went to teacher training college, assuming I'd grown up!). Looking at my mouldering 61 year old Combined Volume it's one of 61017/18/19 or 61021. Anyone any ideas?

 

 

 

 

Lincoln Central was obviously a good place for seeing named B1s.

 

 

As was Doncaster.

 

 

Here's my over-40 year old model of 61033 DIBATAG. I built it from a Jamieson kit and it's all my own work (and it shows). Where are the front steps? The chimney is, err, a chimney and the tender is incorrect for a B1, having the larger cut-out in the sides at the front. Spoked wheels? Speaking of wheels, it's carried on ancient Romfords and Jackson types. Shouldn't the cabside numbers be larger as well? The 'plates were made to my order by Kings Cross Models, and I doubt if they should be red. Looking (critically) at an old model such as this (in comparison with a Hornby B1, say) I wonder whether sometimes I should keep it. It really is poor in comparison (though Hornby's B1 chimney and bogie wheels are just as dud). That said, it still runs, it means I've had a B1 for over four decades and, most importantly, I made it myself. Have I improved in my model-making since 1977? One hopes so! Of course, one can purchase an RTR B1, do it up yourself (with is laudable) or get someone else to 'improve' it for you (which is less so in my opinion, though it does keep professionals in work). And, I do admit to owning a modified Hornby B1, which Tom Foster weathered for me (do you get a whiff of hypocrisy here?). 

 

 

This modified Hornby B1 is obviously superior to my ancient Jamieson B1, but, in a way, so what? I bought this, and a replacement chimney and bogie wheels, bought the front coupling, renumbered it and added a bit of detail, and good friend Tom weathered it (beautifully). It probably gets used more than 61033, but it's nowhere near 'mine' in the same way. Or, am I being sentimental? 

 

 

Here's my SASSABY, arrived at by using a Bachmann loco body and tender, and building a Comet chassis to go underneath. Unfortunately, the tender came from a V2, so has the vacuum cylinder on the back (I'll remove it). It has generic Markits wheels. If nothing else, it runs far better than the original split-chassis nonsense which was underneath.

 

 

This is Ian Wilson's 61028, though I did the work (horse trading, again), fitting yet another Comet chassis under a Bachmann B1 body. This one has the right tender. It's also got Markits proper LNER wheels for a B1, which do make a big difference. 

 

Does anyone else have models of B1s for us to see. I've now got ten, but only three are named.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Tom F]

Afternoon Tony

I was always really pleased with the finish I managed to achieve on 61175. Has the weathering come adrift slightly on the tender, I can patch that up at some point if you like?

 

You don't happen to have any photos of 61061 in your collection do you?

Edited April 10, 2018 by 9793