Tony Wright Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 That's hyper pedantic! Surely the GN mainline is part of the ECML, so while the Leeds expresses were not ECML expresses, they were expresses operating on (part of) the ECML. Even more hyper-pedantic. There is no such word as 'mainline', except as a brand name. It's main line; two words. However, I agree with you. The Leeds expresses were just as much ECML trains as 'The Master Cutler', and trains made up at places like Doncaster from the East Riding, or trains from such as Sunderland. For the majority of their journeys they ran along the ECML. Certainly, I class all the expresses I run on LB as ECML ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Tony, A fantastic set of images - thanks for sharing. The point I was trying to make was that most ECML/GNML 'primary' expresses had either a Thompson RF/FO combination or Gresley articulated catering cars, but that non-articulated Gresley catering cars were generally on secondary expresses. As such, I'm not sure that your photos are counter examples, partly because 1) the resolution is such that, while I can see that they're not mark one, I'm struggling to identify whether the catering is Thompson or Gresley; and 2) because I suspect that many of your images are of summer Saturday trains - i.e. just the type of secondary express which did get Gresley catering (happy to be proved wrong on this). My assertions are based on the carriage workings, and I realise that these do not necessarily reflect what happened on the day. As Andrew said, maintenance requirements would have meant Gresleys substituting from time to time. Regards Andy Andy, If you look at many of the pictures, the cars are carrying roof/cantrail destination boards, so they're principal expresses. They might well have been taken (at least some) on summer Saturdays, but I mainly model from photographs, using BR's documents as a guide. Those represent an 'ideal', not always realised. Even the 'Elizabethan' had a Gresley RF in one of the sets for the last three years of its running; even Deltic-hauled. I think this is the 'North Briton' (definitely a pair of single Gresley catering cars and just as much an ECML express as any other). Regards, Tony. Edited May 7, 2018 by Tony Wright 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
landscapes Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Good afternoon Andy, '(Cue lots of counter examples!). How many do you want? The riding of the Mk. catering cars was abominable; so much so that the single/double Gresley/Thompson catering cars were often to be found in otherwise all Mk.1 ECML sets, into the '60s. 'The White Rose' was one example of a named train made-up in this way. There were many other principal expresses made-up in very similar ways during the late-'50s/early-'60s on the ECML, as I hope the following images show. Obviously, because of copyright restrictions, these are very low-res scans, but, I assure you, they are by far the most-typical of the period. ECML train 01.jpg ECML train 04.jpg ECML train 05.jpg ECML train 06.jpg ECML train 07.jpg ECML train 08.jpg ECML train 09.jpg ECML train 10.jpg ECML train 11.jpg Hi Tony Wow you must have a photo of just about every one of the A3 Class, stunning photos of great Pacific locomotives. Thank you for posting them. Regards David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 Andy, Sorry to repeat, but.................. Principal ECML express (note destination boards on carriages - not used on summer-Saturday extras) breasting Stoke Summit. Gresley Pantry Third and Thompson RF. The rest of the train Mk. 1s. Regards, Tony. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 That's hyper pedantic! Surely the GN mainline is part of the ECML, so while the Leeds expresses were not ECML expresses, they were expresses operating on (part of) the ECML. Andy, yes it sounds pedantic but from an operating point of view the GN main line (not like the model train manufacturer) was its own area that issued it's own timetables, carriage working notices and had its own booked stock seperate from that of the East coast mainline allocation. With relevance to Thompson catering carriages this ment that some were allocated to the GN area and others to the ECML fleets. The West Riding formation would have been part of the GN express services rather than that provided by the ECML fleet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 Hi Tony Wow you must have a photo of just about every one of the A3 Class, stunning photos of great Pacific locomotives. Thank you for posting them. Regards David Thanks David, They are, of course, not my own pictures; hence my insistence on copyright restrictions. In the collection, there's a picture of every A3 in BR days. Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2018 Andy, Sorry to repeat, but.................. ECML train 14.jpg Principal ECML express (note destination boards on carriages - not used on summer-Saturday extras) breasting Stoke Summit. Gresley Pantry Third and Thompson RF. The rest of the train Mk. 1s. Regards, Tony. Blimey. What strikes me more than anything from these photographs is how grubby some of these A3’s are. You would be hard pressed to convince someone unfamiliar with the subject that they were painted green! Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Weren't some BR Mk1 catering vehicles fitted with Gresley bogies at some point to improve the ride? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 7, 2018 Even more hyper-pedantic. There is no such word as 'mainline', except as a brand name. It's main line; two words. However, I agree with you. The Leeds expresses were just as much ECML trains as 'The Master Cutler', and trains made up at places like Doncaster from the East Riding, or trains from such as Sunderland. For the majority of their journeys they ran along the ECML. Certainly, I class all the expresses I run on LB as ECML ones. To be hyper hyper pedantic, there is such a word as mainline, although, as I wouldn't expect you to be fluent in drug culture language Tony I'll let you off! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 Andy, yes it sounds pedantic but from an operating point of view the GN main line (not like the model train manufacturer) was its own area that issued it's own timetables, carriage working notices and had its own booked stock seperate from that of the East coast mainline allocation. With relevance to Thompson catering carriages this ment that some were allocated to the GN area and others to the ECML fleets. The West Riding formation would have been part of the GN express services rather than that provided by the ECML fleet. To further muddy the waters, some services would carry stock from both GN and ECML allocations which would then separate en route to serve different destinations. Under the LNER, the ECML was in many respects an Area in its own right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
landscapes Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Thanks David, They are, of course, not my own pictures; hence my insistence on copyright restrictions. In the collection, there's a picture of every A3 in BR days. Regards, Tony. Hi Tony I know this is being very cheeky but do you happen to have a colour photo of A3 60097 Humorist you could possibly add it would be nice for weathering purposes. I do have some very nice black and white photos but I cannot find a decent colour photo, I think it must have been one of those A3 that was not photographed very often. Please tell me to get lost if you think this is over stepping the mark. Regards David Edited May 7, 2018 by landscapes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Hi Tony I know this is being very cheeky but do you happen to have a colour photo of A3 60097 Humorist you could possibly add it would be nice for weathering purposes. I do have some very nice black and white photos but I cannot find a decent colour photo, I think it must have been one of those A3 that was not photographed very often. Please tell me to get lost if you think this is over stepping the mark. Regards David Good evening David, Why would anyone tell you to get lost? Least of all me. If I can't help others with their modelling, what's the point of this thread? Though in colour, this shot shows hardly any weathering, because HUMORIST has just received her final overhaul at Doncaster. Note, however, that the motion is not shiny. As an aside, note, too, that her tender has spoked wheels. It's also got an A4 boiler. Even though it's fresh-from-shops, it's not 'perfect'. The deflectors are rippled and the main handrail is bent. Would we replicate such things on a model? Probably not. Another late overhaul was PRINCE PALATINE. At least this proves that all the cab roof should be black; not, with green eaves, as rendered by Hornby. I hope these help. Regards, Tony. Edited May 7, 2018 by Tony Wright 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2018 Andy, If you look at many of the pictures, the cars are carrying roof/cantrail destination boards, so they're principal expresses. They might well have been taken (at least some) on summer Saturdays, but I mainly model from photographs, using BR's documents as a guide. Those represent an 'ideal', not always realised. Even the 'Elizabethan' had a Gresley RF in one of the sets for the last three years of its running; even Deltic-hauled. ECML train 15.jpg I think this is the 'North Briton' (definitely a pair of single Gresley catering cars and just as much an ECML express as any other). Regards, Tony. You learn something every day - I never knew that extra summer Saturday trains did not have roof boards. Looks like I’ve got an excuse to run more Gresley RF/RSPs! By the way I love photos 6 and 16 both with Woolwinder but on different trains which show a Thompson PV restaurant car. It’s nice to see one of these in use other than on the Elizabethan. Especially as the Southern Pride kits for them are so easy to make. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 To be hyper hyper pedantic, there is such a word as mainline, although, as I wouldn't expect you to be fluent in drug culture language Tony I'll let you off! Mike. That's very kind of you Mike. Since my guide to words is the OED, rather than some spaced-out jibberish used by those with addled brains, I'm happy to remain ignorant of the word 'mainline'. Regards, Tony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2018 Andy, yes it sounds pedantic but from an operating point of view the GN main line (not like the model train manufacturer) was its own area that issued it's own timetables, carriage working notices and had its own booked stock seperate from that of the East coast mainline allocation. With relevance to Thompson catering carriages this ment that some were allocated to the GN area and others to the ECML fleets. The West Riding formation would have been part of the GN express services rather than that provided by the ECML fleet. I take your point from a stock allocation POV. But as Tony says, if you’re modelling that wonderful railway that was the ECML you need both types of expresses (and a lot more besides). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
landscapes Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Good evening David, Why would anyone tell you to get lost? Least of all me. If I can't help others with their modelling, what's the point of this thread? e1185 60097 small.jpg Though in colour, this shot shows hardly any weathering, because HUMORIST has just received her final overhaul at Doncaster. Note, however, that the motion is not shiny. As an aside, note, too, that her tender has spoked wheels. e1142 60052 small.jpg Another late overhaul was PRINCE PALATINE. At least this proves that all the cab roof should be black; not, with green eaves, as rendered by Hornby. I hope these help. Regards, Tony. Hi Tony Many thanks that really is a nice photo of 60097 Humorist, being a Haymarket loco I am sure she was often seen in that condition in the late 1950's. I was not aware the tender had spoked wheels and also that the cab roof was painted entirely black and not as you say as produced on Hornby A3's. The matt Black paint mixed with a little Gunmetal will be out tomorrow to put thins right. Thank you again for taking the time to download the photos. Regards David Edited May 7, 2018 by landscapes 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) Tony, A fantastic set of images - thanks for sharing. The point I was trying to make was that most ECML/GNML 'primary' expresses had either a Thompson RF/FO combination or Gresley articulated catering cars, but that non-articulated Gresley catering cars were generally on secondary expresses. As such, I'm not sure that your photos are counter examples, partly because 1) the resolution is such that, while I can see that they're not mark one, I'm struggling to identify whether the catering is Thompson or Gresley; and 2) because I suspect that many of your images are of summer Saturday trains - i.e. just the type of secondary express which did get Gresley catering (happy to be proved wrong on this). My assertions are based on the carriage workings, and I realise that these do not necessarily reflect what happened on the day. As Andrew said, maintenance requirements would have meant Gresleys substituting from time to time. Regards Andy Evening Andy, I have a querrie with regard to the CWN's. How do you tell a Gresley RF from a Thompson one? A genuine question as i've never really looked. One thought that is probably worth mentioning is that by the mid fifties a lot of the Gresley RF's were reclassified as RU, so that they could be set out as first or third (or second later) dining as required. I should have another look through the CWN's for 18 seat 43 ton RU's and see what you come up with. Finaly, I'm not certain what constitutes a secondary express? What is the definition? Edited for dining. Edited May 7, 2018 by Headstock Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2018 ... set out as first or third (or second later) dinning as required. As pedantry seems to be in vogue at present, one dines in a dining car. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2018 Evening Andy, I have a querrie with regard to the CWN's. How do you tell a Gresley RF from a Thompson one? A genuine question as i've never really looked. One thought that is probably worth mentioning is that by the mid fifties a lot of the Gresley RF's were reclassified as RU, so that they could be set out as first or third (or second later) dining as required. I should have another look through the CWN's for 18 seat 43 ton RU's and see what you come up with. Finaly, I'm not certain what constitutes a secondary express? What is the definition? Edited for dining. I’m not sure there is a strict definition of secondary express. I’d tend to say that principal expresses were the named trains, plus the key West Riding and NE/ Scotland expresses (e.g. 5:35pm to Newcastle/ Saltburn in 1958). Secondary expresses are everything else including Hull/ Cleethorpes and reliefs/ FO / SO Trains. Anyone have a better definition? As for telling a Thompson RF from the carriage workings, weight is the only way I know and looking again I think I got it wrong. There are some at 43 tons (mainly West Riding), some at 44 tons (mainly ECML) and a few at 38 tons. I’d assumed that 43 and 44 tons were both Thompson and 38 was Gresley, but I think that maybe 44 tons is Thompson, 43 Gresley diagram 10C (and 144?) and 38 tons earlier Gresley versions. Is that possible? Sorry for any confusion I’ve caused. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Chamby Posted May 7, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 7, 2018 (edited) I’m not sure there is a strict definition of secondary express. I’d tend to say that principal expresses were the named trains, plus the key West Riding and NE/ Scotland expresses (e.g. 5:35pm to Newcastle/ Saltburn in 1958). Secondary expresses are everything else including Hull/ Cleethorpes and reliefs/ FO / SO Trains. Anyone have a better definition? ... Andy Yes the term does seem open to interpretation, particularly as over time more and more trains were given names to raise their profile. Basically, If it wasn’t a principal express, but ran with a headlamp above both buffers, it could be termed a secondary express, with higher running priority and usually better catering facilities compared to the normal fast and semi-fast services. They often serviced more intermediate stations on the main line than the crack services, or were the fastest trains timetabled on a secondary route. They often comprised older prestige stock cascaded from the top flight trains. The term also embraces relief trains for the crack services, and some of the cross country services run jointly with the other companies/regions. Open to correction/supplementation, as always, Phil Edited May 7, 2018 by Chamby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headstock Posted May 8, 2018 Share Posted May 8, 2018 I’m not sure there is a strict definition of secondary express. I’d tend to say that principal expresses were the named trains, plus the key West Riding and NE/ Scotland expresses (e.g. 5:35pm to Newcastle/ Saltburn in 1958). Secondary expresses are everything else including Hull/ Cleethorpes and reliefs/ FO / SO Trains. Anyone have a better definition? As for telling a Thompson RF from the carriage workings, weight is the only way I know and looking again I think I got it wrong. There are some at 43 tons (mainly West Riding), some at 44 tons (mainly ECML) and a few at 38 tons. I’d assumed that 43 and 44 tons were both Thompson and 38 was Gresley, but I think that maybe 44 tons is Thompson, 43 Gresley diagram 10C (and 144?) and 38 tons earlier Gresley versions. Is that possible? Sorry for any confusion I’ve caused. Andy Thanks for the reply Andy, no need to apologise, this stuff is enough to bamboozle cage full of monkeys. I've just spent an hour looking at diagram books and the CWN's for the 1958 weekdays GN main line, I came to the same conclusion as yourself, that the Gresley RF's are the 43 ton carriages, (I kind of new this already) while the Thompson's are the 44 ton carriages. There are lots of other catering types, kitchen Cars, Triplets, Twins and variations on Buffets, however the Gresley RF's run in more expresses than anything else, although as a small percentage of the whole. With regard to secondary expresses, I haven't got a clue what it actually means, its just a phrase you here, I don't recall it being used in any official document but I couldn't say for sure. My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that I wouldn't describe any train that had a full Restaurant service as secondary whether that be by Gresley or Thompson RF. What about express trains that have no catering provision, are they third rank? Speed might be part of the equation, however, as I mentioned my next door neighbour would always travel by the Yorkshire Pullman, 'not the fastest way to get to London', he would say, 'but the best train on the line bar none'. Fascinating stuff and an interesting conversation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted May 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 8, 2018 Having slept on this, I’m sure that I found a picture of one of the trains with a 43 ton RF and it had a Thompson RF....hence my supposition. Of course, it could have been a different year or an on the day variation. Did I write it down or bookmark it...of course not! I think your definition of secondary works pretty well, provided that buffet cars count as not being full catering (this fits the Cleethorpes and Cambridge services but promotes the Hull to principal express). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted May 8, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 8, 2018 As pedantry seems to be in vogue at present, one dines in a dining car. Regards, John Isherwood. I've had breakfast in a dining car. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted May 8, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 8, 2018 I think the current parlance for consuming food is to trough? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted May 8, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 8, 2018 Secondary express, Limited or no catering, Fewer coaches, Slower speed, Older stock, Stops at places you don't want to go, Worse of all has a smaller and older class of locomotive on the front. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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