Wright writes.....

[zr2498]

3 hours ago, LNERandBR said:

Technology is always moving forwards and DCC Sound has improved as speakers and the decoders themselves have developed. The latest offerings in Steam Sound Decoders are far better than what went before. The best I've heard recently being the Bachmann Double Fairlie.

 

You sometimes have to work very hard to fit the best sound components you can into a model. However, unlike detail or weathering they are under the skin. Nobody will know the hours of effort that went into getting the speaker to fit into the bunker. A smaller one would have fitted easier but the sound produced would be worse.

 

So you've taken an RTR model and fitted sound, crew, detailed it, added the correct lamps and weathered it. Then someone comes along and compares it to the old Hornby sandpaper tender.

 

Thing is people are going to still run their older decoders, even if they have shortcomings. So it's all too easy to tar all steam DCC sound with the same brush. Take the brush as far as the model you hear at that spacific time. Then, maybe give it a chance before you go grabbing for that tar brush.

Totally agree.

Decoder and speaker technology has improved a great deal in recent years. Accurascale have demonstrated that with some forethought an improved sound can be supplied RTR. Two speakers in the Deltic to give a wide range of frequencies. Most locos however need to have a purchaser upgrade to achieve better sound.

I have followed some of the sound instrallations done by Mike Wild, and they make a big difference. Even better 'in the flesh' so to speak than that heard on a U tube videos.

For example, I have followed his method with tender bashing (to fit a big speaker), together with Locoman Sounds projects and firebox flicker for an A2/2 and A2/3.

The installation and the sound demo can be heard on Hornby Magazine videos. I have not linked them in case of copyright infringement.

[Tony Teague]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Loco noises at exhibitions?

 

Out of possible interest, I've just come back from one of the model railway clubs it's my privilege to be an honorary member of. One guy was running a sound-fitted steam-outline loco on one of the DCC test tracks. By coincidence, another guy was sawing some wood in the same room. I closed my eyes, and couldn't tell the difference in sound!

 

 

I can guess which was the cheaper sound to produce!😃

[john new]

On 02/12/2022 at 06:14, D-A-T said:

Following a recommendation on here I bought one of these:

https://www.circuitspecialists.eu/csi-premier75w-digital-temperature-controlled-solder-station-with-75w-soldering-iron

Has a wide variety of tips to choose from and good spares back up if needed. I think it is excellent value for money.

Following a suitable hint to SWMBO mine was delivered today ready for wrapping until the 25th. Thanks for the link @D-A-T

 

Re gluing - the Ks Terrier and a Ks LBSC coach my father built that way in 1958-9 (the date is on the box) has stayed together. The white metal chassis has warped and needs replacing but I can't blame bodywork glue for that.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by john new

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Suspension of disbelief. Nothing on a model railway is real - our brains are providing the interpretation of what we see and hear. Static cattle, leaves that never rustle, trains without passengers, steam locomotives without smoke or steam etc - we fill the gaps with what we want to.

 

DCC sound, steam or diesel, 'works' for me - a good steam loco sound project properly driven can be very convincing. There was a small layout at Warley, a Southern branch station with a OO sound fitted Adam radial running around its train that was absolutely mesmerizing. That was down to the sound project and the operator. Wish I could recall its name, best in the show for me.

I've praised this before: the best sound I've ever experienced on a model railway was on "Up the Line", a WW1-set military railway.  I think there was no train sound at all, just birdsong and the distant rumble of guns; it created much more atmosphere than just train sounds and nothing else. 

[t-b-g]

Sometimes, when I am operating "solo" at home, I put something like this on in the background.

 

It doesn't matter if the sounds are not "in sync" with what is happening on the layout. It just sounds as if I am in a real railway environment.

 

 

[Dave John]

I totally agree t b g .

 

A couple of years back I made an ambient sound generator. Some distant Caley engines from an  ARGO recording, some Edwardian sort of street sounds. Not strident loco sounds as if I'm stood next to them, just an urban ambience as if I'm viewing them from a few hundred yards away.  

 

Moot point anyway, dcc sound is way above my cost level. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Dave John

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

I can guess which was the cheaper sound to produce!😃

Without doubt, Tony,

 

I have no idea what 'standard' the sound chip was in the loco in question, except any noise emanated from the tender! I doubt it was of the highest value, and it certainly wouldn't tempt me along the digital sound path. 

 

But, even the best I've heard (which tend to be diesel noises) wouldn't tempt me. There are far more 'practical' reasons - how about over 200 kit-built locos to sound-equip (with no thought being given in their construction for speaker-installation), not to mention the cost!

 

I'm sure many are excited, intrigued and more-than-happy with 'artificial' sound on their model railways; each to their own, of course. But, there's something about the mechanical noise which a model train makes as it bowls along which I find exciting; an entirely 'natural' sound, not of a whining motor (I don't have many Portescaps) but the mechanical clatter of wheels over rail joints and the roar as an express speeds by.

 

I hope the forthcoming video illustrates that.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.    

[polybear]

I've no idea what the latest "state of the art" sound chips are like in 00, but from my experiences at exhibitions it does seem that sound works far better when fitted to 0 Gauge Locos, presumably due to their being far more room to fit decent speakers etc.

I would imagine the cost factor isn't such an issue either, as I would imagine (there are no doubt exceptions) that those working in 7mm have a much smaller collection of locos.

[Jesse Sim]

Oooh are we back on the DCC sound debate? 
 

What about gearboxes?

 

 

Ill see myself out

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I've praised this before: the best sound I've ever experienced on a model railway was on "Up the Line", a WW1-set military railway.  I think there was no train sound at all, just birdsong and the distant rumble of guns; it created much more atmosphere than just train sounds and nothing else. 

 

Birdsong? I was at a show with birdsong once. Except it was a harbour scene with recordings of gulls. Everybody I talked to vowed they would never go to another show where that layout was showing again. 

[Northmoor]

7 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Birdsong? I was at a show with birdsong once. Except it was a harbour scene with recordings of gulls. Everybody I talked to vowed they would never go to another show where that layout was showing again. 

Perhaps it was a little too realistic; the viewers had their chips stolen and on the way home had to leave their coats at the dry cleaners.

[polybear]

19 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Out of possible interest, I've just come back from one of the model railway clubs it's my privilege to be an honorary member of. One guy was running a sound-fitted steam-outline loco on one of the DCC test tracks. By coincidence, another guy was sawing some wood in the same room. I closed my eyes and couldn't tell the difference in sound!

 

9 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Oooh are we back on the DCC sound debate? 
What about gearboxes?

I'll see myself out

 

Remember that Vietnam War Film where someone in a Bar chucks an empty Tinnie up into the Ceiling Fan whilst shouting "GRENADE", then sits back and watches the fun whilst everyone dives for cover under the tables?

It seems the Guy with the Tinnie was also called Tony....🤣

Edited December 7, 2022 by polybear

[Bucoops]

9 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Birdsong? I was at a show with birdsong once. Except it was a harbour scene with recordings of gulls. Everybody I talked to vowed they would never go to another show where that layout was showing again. 

 

I wonder if it was discussed on twitter?

[Chas Levin]

Morning all, my main issue with model railway sound is to do with the limitations of physics and of our perceptions of scaled down sound. Coming from a professional audio background, it never sounds remotely believable to me, simply because of the amount of air being moved by a speaker diaphragm of perhaps less than an inch, compared to what happens when a full-size loco 'breathes'. Neither do the latest - and undeniably very clever - acoustic tricks employed by small speakers improve things for me. 

I'd rather imagine or, sometimes, as others have mentioned, put on a recording or film, where at any rate my hifi gives a reasonable representation of the lower frequencies...

In a slightly odd analogy, it reminds me of the way a full-sized glossy loco looks fine, but really shiny gloss on a 4mm scale model looks wrong, partly because of the sizes of the reflections...

[thegreenhowards]

There are badly built kit locos which look rubbish and well built ones which look fantastic. We don’t criticise all kit built locos because of the badly built ones, so why criticise all DCC sound because of one or two that sounded bad?

 

None of our models are perfect but sound is a massive leap forward into realism for me and brings a layout to life. I admit it isn’t hugely significant on a large roundy roundy with trains going by at speed because (what Tony calls)  mechanical noise drowns out the engine sound, as it does to a degree on the prototype. But on a BLT, or any layout with shunting or stopping and starting it massively increases the play value and, for me, the enjoyment of watching such a layout. I also think it encourages realistic operation because of the in built momentum and braking sounds - no sudden starts and stops.

 

When operating our club exhibition layout, I also find it helps engage the younger generation. Children love it when I pass them the handset and ask them to sound the horn/ whistle. That may be regarded as playing trains by the elite, but I see it as my duty to entertain.

 

Finally, I think diesel sounds are better because there is more variety in the prototype. This may be because I grew up with diesels, but I find all steam locos sound similar - with just the whistle and a marginal difference between 3 cylinder and other locos. On the other hand the difference between, say, a class 37 and a baby Sulzer (classes 24-27) is dramatic and easily reproducible in model form. 
 

Andy

[MikeParkin65]

25 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

There are badly built kit locos which look rubbish and well built ones which look fantastic. We don’t criticise all kit built locos because of the badly built ones, so why criticise all DCC sound because of one or two that sounded bad?

 

None of our models are perfect but sound is a massive leap forward into realism for me and brings a layout to life. I admit it isn’t hugely significant on a large roundy roundy with trains going by at speed because (what Tony calls)  mechanical noise drowns out the engine sound, as it does to a degree on the prototype. But on a BLT, or any layout with shunting or stopping and starting it massively increases the play value and, for me, the enjoyment of watching such a layout. I also think it encourages realistic operation because of the in built momentum and braking sounds - no sudden starts and stops.

 

When operating our club exhibition layout, I also find it helps engage the younger generation. Children love it when I pass them the handset and ask them to sound the horn/ whistle. That may be regarded as playing trains by the elite, but I see it as my duty to entertain.

 

Finally, I think diesel sounds are better because there is more variety in the prototype. This may be because I grew up with diesels, but I find all steam locos sound similar - with just the whistle and a marginal difference between 3 cylinder and other locos. On the other hand the difference between, say, a class 37 and a baby Sulzer (classes 24-27) is dramatic and easily reproducible in model form. 
 

Andy

Agree with all of that apart from the last paragraph - good 3 cylinder sound projects sound very different to the more common 2 and 4 cylinder projects. I'd cite Bachmanns sound fitted V2 (but it deperately needs a better speaker than the small factory fitted one) and Locomans various LNER Pacific projects. 

[LNERandBR]

12 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

There are badly built kit locos which look rubbish and well built ones which look fantastic. We don’t criticise all kit built locos because of the badly built ones, so why criticise all DCC sound because of one or two that sounded bad?

 

This is very true. There can such a large difference between a 'good' sound decoder program and a 'poor' one. Then a good one can be ruined by a poor installation of the speaker. Like most things it comes down to the experience of the people involved.

 

The best time to hear a sound fitted loco is in a quiet environment. You are more likely to hear the full range of sounds produced then in a noisy club or exhibition hall.

Similarly, a well put together kitbuilt locomotive mechinism will show off its quiet running in a quiet environment. I quite enjoy seeing the videos of Little Bytham. With Tony's heavy kitbuilt locomotives flying past at the head of heavy trains. DCC Sound would add very little to that and if anything may detract from it.

[MikeParkin65]

3 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

 

I quite enjoy seeing the videos of Little Bytham. With Tony's heavy kitbuilt locomotives flying past at the head of heavy trains. DCC Sound would add very little to that and if anything may detract from it.

Probably true for the steam loco's but that lovely Accurascale Deltic droning away would be the cherry on top of the cake 🤩

[Tony Wright]

24 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

There are badly built kit locos which look rubbish and well built ones which look fantastic. We don’t criticise all kit built locos because of the badly built ones, so why criticise all DCC sound because of one or two that sounded bad?

 

None of our models are perfect but sound is a massive leap forward into realism for me and brings a layout to life. I admit it isn’t hugely significant on a large roundy roundy with trains going by at speed because (what Tony calls)  mechanical noise drowns out the engine sound, as it does to a degree on the prototype. But on a BLT, or any layout with shunting or stopping and starting it massively increases the play value and, for me, the enjoyment of watching such a layout. I also think it encourages realistic operation because of the in built momentum and braking sounds - no sudden starts and stops.

 

When operating our club exhibition layout, I also find it helps engage the younger generation. Children love it when I pass them the handset and ask them to sound the horn/ whistle. That may be regarded as playing trains by the elite, but I see it as my duty to entertain.

 

Finally, I think diesel sounds are better because there is more variety in the prototype. This may be because I grew up with diesels, but I find all steam locos sound similar - with just the whistle and a marginal difference between 3 cylinder and other locos. On the other hand the difference between, say, a class 37 and a baby Sulzer (classes 24-27) is dramatic and easily reproducible in model form. 
 

Andy

Good morning Andy,

 

I don't think anyone is criticising all sound systems because I happened to comment on one sound-fitted loco (Hornby, by the way, with a basic sound decoder) which sounded exactly like a piece of wood being cut with a saw. 

 

With regard to the comment being analogous with 'badly-built' locos from kits, I'd say that it's a fair bet that over 90% of kit-built locos (at least in my experience, having handled hundreds of them) are 'rubbish', at least with regard to their running qualities. So, beware poor sound, and beware most kit-built locos? 

 

If you find sound adds to the play value, then that's fine. If it encourages youngsters, then that's also fine, but I'd like to hear what you have to say when you're exhibiting next to a diesel depot layout for two days, where you can 'hear' the throbbing of the engines through your feet! I didn't care whether it was a Class 37 or a Deltic, it was most-annoying. Fortunately, after frequent requests from fellow exhibitors, the sound was turned down - a bit. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Probably true for the steam loco's but that lovely Accurascale Deltic droning away would be the cherry on top of the cake 🤩

Good morning Mike,

 

I agree, but my Accurascale Deltic is analogue-only (can an analogue loco 'speak' as it were?). 

 

When Bachmann introduced its Dynamis sound system, some of the firm's representatives came over to LB to run a sound-fitted Deltic and video it. This is a frequent occurrence (not just by Bachmann) where RTR manufacturers can video their new products on a 'big' trainset, Little Bytham being seen as 'realistic', especially for its being able to run full-length trains at (high) speed. And, yes, believe it or not, there is a portal for DCC systems to be attached to the layout!

 

Though, on idle, the Bachmann sound was definitely that of a Deltic, by the time we'd attached the racehorse to a heavy train and fully opened the taps, any engine noise was completely drowned out by the mechanical noise of the loco and its train; the complete opposite of reality, where one could hear a Deltic approaching before it came into view. 

 

I'm sure Accurascale's Deltic is more 'throaty', but it'll have to be a lot louder to fully convince me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[MikeParkin65]

4 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mike,

 

I agree, but my Accurascale Deltic is analogue-only (can an analogue loco 'speak' as it were?). 

 

When Bachmann introduced its Dynamis sound system, some of the firm's representatives came over to LB to run a sound-fitted Deltic and video it. This is a frequent occurrence (not just by Bachmann) where RTR manufacturers can video their new products on a 'big' trainset, Little Bytham being seen as 'realistic', especially for its being able to run full-length trains at (high) speed. And, yes, believe it or not, there is a portal for DCC systems to be attached to the layout!

 

Though, on idle, the Bachmann sound was definitely that of a Deltic, by the time we'd attached the racehorse to a heavy train and fully opened the taps, any engine noise was completely drowned out by the mechanical noise of the loco and its train; the complete opposite of reality, where one could hear a Deltic approaching before it came into view. 

 

I'm sure Accurascale's Deltic is more 'throaty', but it'll have to be a lot louder to fully convince me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

The accurascale sound project works on DC . Its an excellent project especially at the higher speed ranges where it really captures that distant 'whine' in my humble opinion.  Gets plenty of complaints from Mrs P so its certainly louder than the rest lol

[thegreenhowards]

19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

 

I don't think anyone is criticising all sound systems because I happened to comment on one sound-fitted loco (Hornby, by the way, with a basic sound decoder) which sounded exactly like a piece of wood being cut with a saw. 

 

With regard to the comment being analogous with 'badly-built' locos from kits, I'd say that it's a fair bet that over 90% of kit-built locos (at least in my experience, having handled hundreds of them) are 'rubbish', at least with regard to their running qualities. So, beware poor sound, and beware most kit-built locos? 

 

If you find sound adds to the play value, then that's fine. If it encourages youngsters, then that's also fine, but I'd like to hear what you have to say when you're exhibiting next to a diesel depot layout for two days, where you can 'hear' the throbbing of the engines through your feet! I didn't care whether it was a Class 37 or a Deltic, it was most-annoying. Fortunately, after frequent requests from fellow exhibitors, the sound was turned down - a bit. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony,

 

I sympathise with you on the diesel depot. I’ve heard similar and it all blends into one drone. I tend to have one, or at most two, sound locos working at the same time. While not necessarily prototypical, it allows me to concentrate on the main ‘actor’ at the moment, rather than being distracted. 
 

I also regard diesel (or steam) depots as rather overdone in the modelling world. I like to see my engines working rather than sitting around.

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

31 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

 

This is very true. There can such a large difference between a 'good' sound decoder program and a 'poor' one. Then a good one can be ruined by a poor installation of the speaker. Like most things it comes down to the experience of the people involved.

 

The best time to hear a sound fitted loco is in a quiet environment. You are more likely to hear the full range of sounds produced then in a noisy club or exhibition hall.

Similarly, a well put together kitbuilt locomotive mechinism will show off its quiet running in a quiet environment. I quite enjoy seeing the videos of Little Bytham. With Tony's heavy kitbuilt locomotives flying past at the head of heavy trains. DCC Sound would add very little to that and if anything may detract from it.

I definitely agree on the quality of the speaker. I have been concentrating on my O gauge locos for sound fitment recently and the ability to get a decent speaker in makes a huge difference. All of my O gauge fleet is sound fitted whereas only about 20 of my 150 Locos in OO gauge are fitted. 

[davefrk]

Whatever the sound is it's usually far too loud, as Tony has said try being beside a sound layout for two days.

Turn it down guys and gals the other side of the hall doesn't need to hear it!!!!

[MJI]

34 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mike,

 

I agree, but my Accurascale Deltic is analogue-only (can an analogue loco 'speak' as it were?). 

 

When Bachmann introduced its Dynamis sound system, some of the firm's representatives came over to LB to run a sound-fitted Deltic and video it. This is a frequent occurrence (not just by Bachmann) where RTR manufacturers can video their new products on a 'big' trainset, Little Bytham being seen as 'realistic', especially for its being able to run full-length trains at (high) speed. And, yes, believe it or not, there is a portal for DCC systems to be attached to the layout!

 

Though, on idle, the Bachmann sound was definitely that of a Deltic, by the time we'd attached the racehorse to a heavy train and fully opened the taps, any engine noise was completely drowned out by the mechanical noise of the loco and its train; the complete opposite of reality, where one could hear a Deltic approaching before it came into view. 

 

I'm sure Accurascale's Deltic is more 'throaty', but it'll have to be a lot louder to fully convince me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

It would have to shake your shed I think.

 

Last time I saw a Deltic I could hear it leave Cheltenham and I was on the side of a lane just south of Toddington.