Wright writes.....

[Michael Edge]

It looks like a test train to me - was this after the reverse turbine had been altered? Running in reverse was important at Euston because the arriving train loco was normally required to bank the train on its way out, at least as far as the platform end. It might well have been needed at Lime Street as well given the sharp gradient into the tunnel just off the platform ends.

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, Mark Laidlay said:

We see lights on Australian models as well but often with switches underneath so the lights can be turned off.  Locos also often come with directional lighting, that might have been great in the '80s but that's not how real loco lights work.  DCC can be configured to do it properly.

Mark in Melbourne

Good afternoon Mark,

 

Apparently (in DC-mode), the lamp on the rear of the tender of 'Turbomotive' can have its colour changed by 'tapping the tender sides'. I must admit to not trying it. 

 

I'm sure DCC can arrange the lighting 'properly', but that doesn't hide the fact that, say, if 'Turbomotive' were running light engine - off a train, on to shed, for instance - the presence of 'permanently-fixed' lamps is just plain wrong (like Tony Gee, I'm sure I could get them off!).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[LNER4479]

5 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

It looks like a test train to me - was this after the reverse turbine had been altered? Running in reverse was important at Euston because the arriving train loco was normally required to bank the train on its way out, at least as far as the platform end. It might well have been needed at Lime Street as well given the sharp gradient into the tunnel just off the platform ends.

Mike beat me to it. A J Powell used this picture in his (excellent!) Stanier Pacifics at Work book and postulated just such a scenario - a test run following modifications to the reverse turbine. He reckons the visible footplate person is actually an inspector. The motley collection of coaches also points to it being a test train.

 

Very much a 'one off'!

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

It looks like a test train to me - was this after the reverse turbine had been altered? Running in reverse was important at Euston because the arriving train loco was normally required to bank the train on its way out, at least as far as the platform end. It might well have been needed at Lime Street as well given the sharp gradient into the tunnel just off the platform ends.

I agree about the train, Mike,

 

Though it looks as if the loco is still fitted with the original small turbine for running in reverse.

 

 

 

The later-fitted reverse turbine was considerably bigger (coincidental with the fitting of deflectors, and being painted black?). 

 

Perhaps the test in question proved that the reverse turbine needed increasing in size, but that still doesn't explain the weird arrangement of the lamps.

 

I have to say (despite the fixed lamps), I think these are outstanding models. Certainly far better than anything I could build in equivalence and definitely superior with regard to the painting. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[cctransuk]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I agree about the train, Mike,

 

Though it looks as if the loco is still fitted with the original small turbine for running in reverse.

 

 

 

The later-fitted reverse turbine was considerably bigger (coincidental with the fitting of deflectors, and being painted black?). 

 

Perhaps the test in question proved that the reverse turbine needed increasing in size, but that still doesn't explain the weird arrangement of the lamps.

 

I have to say (despite the fixed lamps), I think these are outstanding models. Certainly far better than anything I could build in equivalence and definitely superior with regard to the painting. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

This matter of fixed working lamps is really getting to me - so more thoughts on the subject follow.

 

In order to have bothered to develop this feature, Hornby must have convinced themselves that the majority of potential purchasers would care more about having fixed, over-bright, inappropriate working lights than having an authentic arrangement of moveable, non-working lights, or no lights at all.

 

That concerns me, in that it implies that the hobby is now dominated by those who - without wishing to be derogatory - 'play trains', rather than those who study, and wish to reproduce a model of, the prototype.

 

I have felt for some time that the model railway press - which is the principal source of prototype information for the beginner in railway modelling - have dumbed-down their coverage, with the result that many younger enthusiasts seem to believe that railway trains have always had the ultra-bright headlights that they see on the railways of today.

 

Hornby's current interpretation of working marker lights will, I am afraid,

discourage many a more knowledgeable modeller from purchasing these models, including me. Simply put - I am not prepared to take cutting tools to a locomotive at today's prices, and I will not run trains with fixed, inappropriate lights.

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Clive,

 

 

Here are the 'fixed' lamps on the two Hornby 'Turbomotives'. I've put 'fixed' into inverted commas because I haven't tried to remove them, but they appear to be permanently in place. 

 

 

The light appears to be carried via a clear plastic 'conduit' running from the source (inside the front of the smokebox), dividing into two beneath the front platform; very ingenious.  It's covered by a kind of opaque, hard 'sponge' material which prevents light leaks. It certainly works, but it means that the front steps can only be fitted after part of it is scraped away!

 

 

The rear lamp is fixed for a Class B working, and is permanently illuminated when running - red going forwards; white going in reverse.

 

In this respect, it's absurd. When hauling a train going forwards, no lamp would be carried on the tender's rear; if running light engine forwards, a red lamp would be displayed, but above either buffer; if running light engine in reverse, a white light would be displayed, but just above the coupling hook. As mentioned, I doubt if any train were ever hauled by 'Turbomotive' in reverse. 

 

Your comments from Phil Sutton are interesting. In that respect, I assume Hornby's customers now expect the same - illumination everywhere! 

 

As I mentioned earlier, employing DCC could well mean that the lights can be extinguished whatever direction a loco might be travelling, though the lamps will always be there. As also mentioned, I could well be the one 'out of touch' now with what the market expects/demands, and I should not be 'critical' of such 'gimmicks'. It's just that these are such wonderful locos, and, to me, the illuminated lamps add nothing but 'inaccuracy' to a very accurate model. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

AIUI, the reverse turbine on 6202 was a fraction of the size of the main one and primarily intended for light engine movements in and out of termini. 

 

TBH, though the number of purchasers with a legitimate use for a Hornby Turbomotive is likely to be tiny. Most will go to Rule Oners who don't care and collectors who won't ever subject them to any electricity...

 

The Black Five is much more important, and I'm beginning to think that if I want a Caprotti it'll either have to be kit built or will involve some severe hacking.

 

John

Edited October 23, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Roger Sunderland]

50 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

This matter of fixed working lamps is really getting to me - so more thoughts on the subject follow.

 

In order to have bothered to develop this feature, Hornby must have convinced themselves that the majority of potential purchasers would care more about having fixed, over-bright, inappropriate working lights than having an authentic arrangement of moveable, non-working lights, or no lights at all.

 

That concerns me, in that it implies that the hobby is now dominated by those who - without wishing to be derogatory - 'play trains', rather than those who study, and wish to reproduce a model of, the prototype.

 

I have felt for some time that the model railway press - which is the principal source of prototype information for the beginner in railway modelling - have dumbed-down their coverage, with the result that many younger enthusiasts seem to believe that railway trains have always had the ultra-bright headlights that they see on the railways of today.

 

Hornby's current interpretation of working marker lights will, I am afraid,

discourage many a more knowledgeable modeller from purchasing these models, including me. Simply put - I am not prepared to take cutting tools to a locomotive at today's prices, and I will not run trains with fixed, inappropriate lights.

 

CJI.

The hobby has always been dominated by those who “play trains”. Hornby have always pandered to that market eg. Missile launchers, Christmas wagons, sandpaper chuff sounds to name but a few. Nothing new to see here I’m afraid. As a “modeller” surely it’s a simply matter to either remove them or disconnect them. As Tony says, it’s a really good model if you want that type of thing ( albeit incredibly niche) so I don’t see why it’s worth getting exercised about it.

[BMacdermott]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

It's definitely Bushey Troughs, and the train is running (I believe) on the Up Fast. As for the headcode - 'Express freight/livestock/perishables/ballast with no more than one third of the vehicles fitted/piped', the train is nothing of those (unless passengers are classed as 'livestock'!). I rather fancy the train is empty and one put together from a mixture of stock for a test? 

 

Tony. 

 

Hello Tony

 

The headlamp code for ECS was different in LMS days. Attached photo from LMS General Appendix dated March 1937 tfn.

 

Brian

 

 

[Tony Wright]

10 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Tony

 

The headlamp code for ECS was different in LMS days. Attached photo from LMS General Appendix dated March 1937 tfn.

 

Brian

 

 

Thanks Brian,

 

Was the LMS unique in this description for empty stock?

 

I foolishly consulted the codes from 1948 (British Railways), the only exceptions (it would seem) being the ex-S&DJR, some ex-GE London suburban lines (which used discs) and, of course, everything on the SR which denoted trains by route, not status, using discs. 

 

Which just goes to show how useful threads like this are. Every day is a school-day!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[maico]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Clive,

 

 

Here are the 'fixed' lamps on the two Hornby 'Turbomotives'. I've put 'fixed' into inverted commas because I haven't tried to remove them, but they appear to be permanently in place. 

 

 

The light appears to be carried via a clear plastic 'conduit' running from the source (inside the front of the smokebox), dividing into two beneath the front platform; very ingenious.  It's covered by a kind of opaque, hard 'sponge' material which prevents light leaks. It certainly works, but it means that the front steps can only be fitted after part of it is scraped away!

 

 

The rear lamp is fixed for a Class B working, and is permanently illuminated when running - red going forwards; white going in reverse.

 

In this respect, it's absurd. When hauling a train going forwards, no lamp would be carried on the tender's rear; if running light engine forwards, a red lamp would be displayed, but above either buffer; if running light engine in reverse, a white light would be displayed, but just above the coupling hook. As mentioned, I doubt if any train were ever hauled by 'Turbomotive' in reverse. 

 

Your comments from Phil Sutton are interesting. In that respect, I assume Hornby's customers now expect the same - illumination everywhere! 

 

As I mentioned earlier, employing DCC could well mean that the lights can be extinguished whatever direction a loco might be travelling, though the lamps will always be there. As also mentioned, I could well be the one 'out of touch' now with what the market expects/demands, and I should not be 'critical' of such 'gimmicks'. It's just that these are such wonderful locos, and, to me, the illuminated lamps add nothing but 'inaccuracy' to a very accurate model. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

I don't understand why the LED isn't in the lamp. My Trix Ho lamp units just unplug if you don't want them or you can turn them off on the CV.

The arrangement on the Marklin-Trix A3 current era looks similar as shown in this short video. The lamps have socket prongs.

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

49 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

The hobby has always been dominated by those who “play trains”. Hornby have always pandered to that market eg. Missile launchers, Christmas wagons, sandpaper chuff sounds to name but a few. Nothing new to see here I’m afraid. As a “modeller” surely it’s a simply matter to either remove them or disconnect them. As Tony says, it’s a really good model if you want that type of thing ( albeit incredibly niche) so I don’t see why it’s worth getting exercised about it.

Good afternoon Roger,

 

You're right; the RTR part of this hobby has always been dominated by 'train set' users. Those who like 'gimmicks? Though missile-launching wagons, giraffe cars and even exploding vans have never been considered even remotely 'scale' models - which Hornby's 'Turbomotives' certainly are. 

 

Were either of these 'Turbomotive' models 'mine' (they'll be sold for charity), I'd leave the lamps at the front in place, snip the light-leads to them and lop-off the one on the back of the tender. They're of no use to me, of course, though they've been tested, photographed and a video of them made on Little Bytham. 

 

You're also right that both manifestations are really niche - 6202 only represents the first year of the loco's life (running with its original boiler, before it got a domed one) and 46202 from late-'49 until the summer of 1952 (when it was rebuilt into the conventional Princess Anne, later to be damaged beyond economic repair in the Harrow disaster in the autumn). 

 

I imagine the majority of purchasers of these models really won't care about 'inappropriate' lamps (those who do, won't buy them). Modellers (I mean folk who actually model) who do care, but are so thrilled with the models' overall excellence, might do what I suggest and just remove/disconnect them. Many won't have a clue what's inappropriate, and some will delight in having their locos fitted with 'searchlights'; especially when running in the dark, where the firebox glow can also be readily discerned.

 

As for collectors, many won't even bother opening the (magnificent) packaging. With that in mind, I've already destroyed the the 'value' of 46202 in that regard by fitting the front steps (meaning scraping away some of the light-proof foam), and by using the shorter drawbar position it won't go back into its packaging!

 

To restate my view - wonderful models, far, far better than anything I've ever produced (and at a cheaper price than any 'equivalent' - I've only ever built a conventional 'Lizzie' for a customer), with just the minor 'nuisance' of those fixed lights - easily dealt with. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry O]

So, my turbo motive tender light is now off.. I followed the Hornby destructions to do so. I can turn off the loco headlamps by either removing the connections to the LED or.. a bit more brutal, by using a pair of cutters to remove aforesaid lamps. I have not tried adding the extra lamp (for the top of the smoke box door supplied in the add on goodies bag) but the destruction say it too will come on...

 

I don't have a problem with the lamps..  the loco is superb and with the movable oil radiator open.. it looks the part.

 

My biggest problem are the back to backs. They are all over the place.

 

Baz

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Tony

 

ECS trains to and from Old Oak Common and Paddington used the same lamp code in BR days - which, I think, was a hang-over from GWR days. Mike Stationmaster will no doubt confirm or correct me.

 

Brian

 

 

[MJI]

Any wagon modellers - of course there are.

 

Reminds me I need wheels, lots of wheels.

 

Anyway Chiver Finelines are releasing some parts as spares.

 

https://www.chiversfinelines.co.uk/shop/kit-parts-spares

 

Got some axle boxes on the way.

 

My current job list requiring parts are.

 

Ex GWR 10ft 5 plank

4 more LMS hoppers

2 Ex LMS vans

 

Gibsons next, then Precision.

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Tony and everyone

 

Has anyone ever noticed the anomalies with the codes printed in the Observer's book series?

 

I attach photos of the 1955, 1960 and 1966 editions.

 

Brian

[t-b-g]

I have often puzzled about the wording of some of the descriptions.

 

Does express freight, fish, meat, fruit or cattle train mean that they would all have to be express, or is "express freight" one type of train and "cattle" another?

 

Or does it have to be an "express cattle"?

 

I have a reason for asking. There is a cattle train on Buckingham, which is partly fitted (at least one third of the wagons fitted) which runs to Grandborough Junction, adds more wagons and goes to Buckingham. On the way back, it detaches wagons at Grandborough.

 

On the Buckingham timetable it runs as a class 9 under three bells as a "pick up goods" but I really don't know if it should be a different class of train.

 

So is the train class based on the make up and load of the train (presumably a loaded cattle train would be higher priority than a general goods) or is it based on how often it stops to shunt along the line, which impacts line occupancy and overall journey times.

 

Could the train still be an "express cattle" even though it stops to detach wagons at Grandborough, as it is at least one third fitted?

 

I attach Peter Denny's own hand written notes on GCR bell codes and train classes, which list his sources for information.

 

 

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Those who like 'gimmicks? Though missile-launching wagons, giraffe cars and even exploding vans have never been considered even remotely 'scale' models 

 

Tony! You forgot one ...

 

 

(doesn't come with working headlights)

[jwealleans]

57 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

So is the train class based on the make up and load of the train (presumably a loaded cattle train would be higher priority than a general goods) or is it based on how often it stops to shunt along the line, which impacts line occupancy and overall journey times.

 

Weren't the different types of train laid out in the WTT and it was then up to the yardmaster or senior shunter(s) to determine what stock to form into what train?    So in your example, if there were an express cattle train scheduled to depart but not stop at Grandborough, but a stopping goods service was due to stop there, then the cattle for Grandborough would go into the stopping goods.   However each train would also be limited in the number of wagons it could contain, so if there were too many cattle wagons for the stopping goods, they might see about an extra stop for the through train or run them as a special.   Conversely if there was not enough traffic a train might not run and the path be used for something else.   There's a BTF film about this, to do with Broccoli from the south west.   I forget what it's called.

 

I think.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by jwealleans

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

 

Weren't the different types of train laid out in the WTT and it was then up to the yardmaster or senior shunter(s) to determine what stock to form into what train?    So in your example, if there were an express cattle train scheduled to depart but not stop at Grandborough, but a stopping goods service was due to stop there, then the cattle for Grandborough would go into the stopping goods.   However each train would also be limited in the number of wagons it could contain, so if there were too many cattle wagons for the stopping goods, they might see about an extra stop for the through train or run them as a special.   Conversely if there was not enough traffic a train might not run and the path be used for something else.   There's a BTF film about this, to do with Broccoli from the south west.   I forget what it's called.

 

I think.

 

 

 

 

 

Sadly, the WTT for the GCR Buckingham branch has not survived. Or maybe it never existed!

 

I have established, by reading articles, that the empty wagons are stored overnight in the sidings at Grandborough. They work empty to Buckingham, where it is always market day. They are loaded and then worked back to GJ, where wagons for Grandborough and Leighton Buzzard are detached. The Leighton Buzzard traffic is attached to a passenger service so fitted wagons are used for that portion. The rest goes off to other destinations. The process is reversed later in the day. There are other cattle wagons which form part of the regular goods services. What puzzles me is that both the full and empty trains run as the same class, with the same headlamps and bell codes. Is that how it should be?

 

The cattle for Grandborough could be attached to a local goods but as the cattle train leaves quite a while before the next goods, it seems unlikely that the loaded cattle wagons would be held back.

[stewartingram]

Just to through a spanner in the works, I once went to March station when the then fairly new A1 60163 came there to reverse and run round its train. 

If I remember correctly, it was empty stock (from Ely?), but the loco carried class A headcode. (Should it have been class C? Anyway, it carried 'proper' headlamps, though they were illuminated with very bright leds. Once uncoupled, it ran forward, turning on the triangle. When going in reverse, the lights were switched to the opposite ends - with twin red lamps on the rear! It then came past (now forwards, lights changed again, still class A) to get past the coaches in the platform. Reversing once again, with another light change, it came back to couple with its coaches.

Watching from the footbridge, it was like looking at a big toy trainset!

Edited October 24, 2023 by stewartingram

[jwealleans]

47 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

What puzzles me is that both the full and empty trains run as the same class, with the same headlamps and bell codes. Is that how it should be?

 

Continuing to speculate wildly until a proper railwayman tells it how it is.....  Other than minerals, the train classifications don't differentiate between full and empty, so that sounds right.   Empty wagons will have less brake force, but they'll also have less momentum to counteract so can run at the same speeds.  

 

Going back to your initial post, isn't 'express' more an indication of how often a train was required to stop rather than of a speed?   I'm sure I've read regulations stating that different classes of train must have certain ratios of fitted or piped wagons, may be restricted in length and can run 'x' miles without stopping to examine.

[65179]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

Weren't the different types of train laid out in the WTT and it was then up to the yardmaster or senior shunter(s) to determine what stock to form into what train?    So in your example, if there were an express cattle train scheduled to depart but not stop at Grandborough, but a stopping goods service was due to stop there, then the cattle for Grandborough would go into the stopping goods.   However each train would also be limited in the number of wagons it could contain, so if there were too many cattle wagons for the stopping goods, they might see about an extra stop for the through train or run them as a special.   Conversely if there was not enough traffic a train might not run and the path be used for something else.   There's a BTF film about this, to do with Broccoli from the south west.   I forget what it's called.

 

I think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's Train Time:

 

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-train-time-1952-online

 

Simon

[t-b-g]

38 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

Continuing to speculate wildly until a proper railwayman tells it how it is.....  Other than minerals, the train classifications don't differentiate between full and empty, so that sounds right.   Empty wagons will have less brake force, but they'll also have less momentum to counteract so can run at the same speeds.  

 

Going back to your initial post, isn't 'express' more an indication of how often a train was required to stop rather than of a speed?   I'm sure I've read regulations stating that different classes of train must have certain ratios of fitted or piped wagons, may be restricted in length and can run 'x' miles without stopping to examine.

 

I recall reading somewhere that an express would serve "principal" stations and that an "ordinary train" could call at "secondary" stations but I am sure people who know the rules and regulations better than I do will know more.

 

I presume Grandborough Junction is classed as a secondary station as many Class 1 passenger trains (in the Buckingham timetable there are no expresses, they are called "semi-fasts") rattle through without stopping.

 

Presumably the same applies to non passenger workings.

 

My common sense tells me that a loaded cattle train would get a higher priority due to the nature of the load, requiring food, water and general looking after. Maybe that isn't the case.

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

So, my turbo motive tender light is now off.. I followed the Hornby destructions to do so. I can turn off the loco headlamps by either removing the connections to the LED or.. a bit more brutal, by using a pair of cutters to remove aforesaid lamps. I have not tried adding the extra lamp (for the top of the smoke box door supplied in the add on goodies bag) but the destruction say it too will come on...

 

I don't have a problem with the lamps..  the loco is superb and with the movable oil radiator open.. it looks the part.

 

My biggest problem are the back to backs. They are all over the place.

 

Baz

 

Good evening Baz,

 

'My biggest problem are the back to backs. They are all over the place.'

 

That's odd. The two Turbomotives I have have consistent back-to-backs; consistent enough to run perfectly through hand-made and Peco pointwork on LB.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[LNER4479]

2 hours ago, stewartingram said:

Just to through a spanner in the works, I once went to March station when the then fairly new A1 60163 came there to reverse and run round its train. 

If I remember correctly, it was empty stock (from Ely?), but the loco carried class A headcode. (Should it have been class C? Anyway, it carried 'proper' headlamps, though they were illumitated with very bright leds. Once uncoupled, it ran forward, turning on the triangle. When going in reverse, the lights were switched to the opposite ends - with twin red lamps on the rear! It then came past (now forwards, lights changed again, still class A) to get past the coaches in the platform. Reversing once again, with another light change, it came back to couple with its coaches.

Watching from the footbridge, it was like looking at a big toy trainset!

Trains no longer display train classification headcodes when running on the mainline. The contemporary requirement is to display the UIC 'triangle' of lights - marker lights top and bottom corners, with a headlamp also displayed on one of the bottom positions. Heritage locomotives have a dispensation just to carry one (portable) headlamp, placed in the bottom centre position.

 

There was no absolute requirement for Tornado to do anything different (even though 'new', it's still classed as a 'heritage' loco); however, original electric lamps cases were obtained and fitted with LED clusters as you observed. There is one in each of the traditional four positions, as per the original A1s as first built. There are additional two headlamps fitted, made in the replica LNER style, and positioned in Class A / Class 1 position. These can be removed (for maintenance) but are otherwise permanently fitted, wired to a control panel in the cab so the driver can change the light codes if required, as you observed. With the wonders of modern LED technology, the marker lamps can be changed from white to red as desired - there is a similar set on the back of the tender. The loco can therefore in fact display the correct UIC 'triangle' pattern of lights when running on the mainline; on a heritage line, the traditional train classification codes can alternatively be displayed.