Wright writes.....

[Jol Wilkinson]

27 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

I think that York is probably bigger than Model Rail Scotland. There was some discussion earlier about one day shows so it's possibly worth pointing out that both of these are three day shows.

York has been my favorite large show for many years, although I am no longer able to regularly visit.

 

It uses an unusual venue, which is not the easiest for some exhibitors/traders in which to set up, is 30+ minutes walk from York station, has to contend with the car boot parking on Sunday, use the venues catering, etc. Yet it succeeds very well, attracting modellers from as far afield as Scotland and, depending on the weather,  local families.

 

Venues for shows are an interesting subject. Apart from the big shows that use exhibition venues such as the NEC, we are faced with having to use schools or sports centres in the main. While these often have suitable main halls, they are often not ideal in other respects. Organisers are sometimes required to use the contracted caterers who often aren't geared up to dealing with people who are on a day out and want more than a sandwich and cup of tea. Access for exhibitors and traders is often poor (because the venue was't designed for that). Ventilation/heating may be inadequate. Lighting isn't always suitable for layouts so woe betide those that haven't built it in. Parking can be a problem, especially when parents turn up with their offspring for sporting activities. Public transport access may be difficult, which doesn't help those who don't/can't drive or get a lift.

 

I have attended multiple shows each years for over thirty five years as an exhibitor or assisting a trader and so have some experience of these issues and how they can affect peoples perception of the event. Despite this, show organisers manage to put on shows that are well worth visiting but would be even better if those shortfalls could be resolved.

 

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, JustinDean said:

 

I don’t think we’re a dying breed. I remember in the late 80’s/early 90’s, the first time round I was modelling railways, the same conversations were happening. 
The cycle seems to be young folk get into the hobby, adulthood distractions take over, then at some point in later life we return, realising what a great hobby it is. I’m one of these people rejoining the fold a few years ago. 
Coming back was eye opening, Web forums, multiple publications, lots of exhibitions, manufacturers and a wealth of resources available. To me it seems better than ever!  Warley and Hattons going are just signifiers of change; absolutely not the signs of the end. 
 

Jay

I don't think anyone has been prophesying the end. However, we so-called baby-boomers form by far the largest post-war generation in the UK even now. When we were growing up in the 1950s and 1960s, youthful interest in railways and ownership of train sets was much more "mainstream" than it has been since, sowing the seeds of lifelong enthusiasm.

 

Logically, that means a higher proportion of us should be carrying the "railway bug" than in any of the subsequent three generations (taking the usual definition of a generation as 25 years). 

 

Given all of the above, it seems highly improbable that railway/model railway enthusiasm will have taken root in any one of the ensuing generations to the same extent as in ours.

 

We are now at, past or nearing the 70 mark but we are so far "checking out" relatively slowly; most of the Family Notices in our local paper relate to individuals in their 80's and 90's.

 

However,  many of us are reaching the point where our contribution to the hobby is waning, or soon will; and we will become those aforementioned 80 and 90-plussers uncomfortably soon. This phenomenon, rather than current mortality rates, is what probably underlies the recent unwelcome news items.  

 

At present any overall decline is being masked because there are two full succeeding generations from which to draw new adult enthusiasts, but we are nearing a demographic tipping point. 

 

We are now maybe five (or at best, ten) years away from my generation needing to be replaced at twice the current rate just to maintain the size of the hobby, let alone create any growth.

 

John

 

Edited January 14 by Dunsignalling

[Clive Mortimore]

Catching up on various topics.

 

Working from home,  before covid I had a job where you were supposed to work from home, four company meetings in one week in different locations didn't give me much time to work from home. Anyhow after the "charity" made me very unwell and I couldn't give a monkey's about them I liked working from home. If I wanted a nap, I took one. If the phone would ring I would give it five minutes so I was awake and ring back saying I was busy with a client. I can here you all shouting lazy blighter. Next job was a self employed dog walker, lovely customers and their dogs, no holidays, four sick days in 10 years, an excellent job.

 

Setting up and taking down layouts at shows, I was invited to show Pig Lane at Alley Pally. It is very small and I was packed up and leaving as the stewards were still trying to get the public out. I have been involved with some larger layouts where transporting and the assembling and dismantling have not been part of the design, wot a nightmare. Others have gone up and down and the crew away while smaller layouts are still trying to find the boxes to put the stock in.  Remember to add "How am I going to get this to and from an exhibition", before building the worlds greatest train set.

 

Model railways is a dying hobby, so what! Enjoy your modelling and playing trains while you still have life left in you. Once you are gone you will not care about the angle of the return crank anymore.

[Tony Teague]

3 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Model railways is a dying hobby,

 

I don't think it is.

I feel it is just changing, as it must have repeatedly over the years.

And we won't all like the changes, but we are old and set in our ways!

Just think how smaller retailers must have felt when Hattons really got going on line, and how some small local exhibitions must have felt when Warley got so big and successful.

No, we must embrace change because it is inevitable and younger enthusiats than ourselves will want to do it differently.

Good luck to them, and now back to doing it my way.........🥱

[gr.king]

Why on earth the Telegraph sees recent years' TV coverage as a failed saviour (via a silly bake-off style, rushed, dumbed down version of modelling, or a look at what various "celebrities" have in the way of a trainset / model railway interests) I really do not know. I thought the "bake-off" did nothing to show and encourage sensible pursuit of the hobby. A proper look at what some of the best modellers (famous or probably otherwise) can achieve in normal circumstances, and how they achieve it, might do more to stir the interest of the kind of person who would also try to take modelling reasonably seriously. 

Edited January 14 by gr.king

[Tony Wright]

I have no crystal ball with which to tell if our great hobby is dying or not. 

 

Though it's dangerous to indulge in observations, I'll try and make a few.

 

The hobby appears to be declining in the number of participants, particularly with regard to clubs. I must have visited about a dozen clubs last year, either at exhibitions, visits to clubrooms and photographing layouts. Almost without exception, the majority of participants were my age (77) or older! A decade ago, visits to the same (and other) clubs revealed that members' ages were in their 60s. So, in another decade?

 

By far the largest demographic in the hobby is the baby-boomer generation - those born at the close of the last war and just after (my generation). A generation which saw steam, where a train set was on just about every boy's Christmas and birthday lists. Trainspotting was a universal hobby for boys (Ian Allan made a fortune from them), and, if only a small fraction carried the interest (prototype and model) into adulthood, that fraction still represented a huge number. A number one still sees today at shows.

 

The boomer generation resulted in a vast expansion of interest in the hobby of railway modelling, especially when cheaper train sets such as Tri-ang became available (all my parents could afford). There isn't an equivalent now. Anyway, hacking about Tri-ang stuff (and bleeding profusely as the knife slipped when taking off moulded handrails!) was a rite of passage to more-accurate things (hardly necessary now). 

 

Teaching in the '70s, several boys I taught still indulged in trainspotting and building model railways. In the '90s, I saw none. 

 

In a way, we've never had it so good, particularly with current RTR. That said, it's resulted in the decline in kit-building, and many of today's prices are beyond many a youthful pocket. Principal buyers would appear to be (especially with regard to steam-outline) owners of the 'grey pound'. Instead of using current models as 'starting points', there seems to be a reluctance to alter them in case they lose 'value', especially in the eyes of collectors. A side-effect of excellent RTR has resulted in a 'sameness' in layouts at shows and in the media (in the past, use of such items was referred to as 'proprietary modelling'). 

 

Many shows will disappear because those who've organised them (for ever) are now too old. Others (the late-lamented Wigan one, for instance) no longer take place because of a declining number willing to organise such events and the financial risk as venue prices have increased so much. 

 

When Mo and I have sold models on behalf of bereaved relatives, many have been bought by modellers the same age (or even older!) as the bloke (it's always a bloke) who's died. As for trying to sell second-hand books.........

 

On a positive note, the general standard of layouts (particularly with regard to scenics) on show has probably never been higher. 

 

On a personal level, do I particularly care what happens? I try to help younger modellers develop skills, so the future is up to them. The loss of retail outlets matters little to me (though the universal loss of the 'proper' model shop did!), and Mo and I attend far fewer shows than we did in the past. As long as I can order materials by phone (I don't do internet shopping or eBay!), then I can acquire what I need very easily (recent excellent service from PDK, 247 Developments, Fox, Comet and DJH). Looking at my shelves, I've probably got enough stuff to build for the next five years. After that? 

 

Who knows? 

Edited January 14 by Tony Wright
to add something

[lezz01]

I believe that one of the problems with having no junior club members came about because of the requirement of club members to be CRB checked if they had any contact with kids at the members own expense. That was the reason that was given by the MKMRS for not taking junior members anymore. 

Regards Lez. 

[Bucoops]

19 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Teaching in the '70s, several boys I taught still indulged in trainspotting and building model railways. In the '90s, I saw none. 

 

 

I know us rail enthusiasts were in the minority by then but "none" surprises me. There were 3 of us in my year at Secondary School (1989-) and I was aware of the odd other modeller. Although how it took me until Sixth Form to twig that the teacher who also taught photography was *that* Michael J Collins I have no idea! 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30843245@N00/with/50313090561

[JustinDean]

16 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

I believe that one of the problems with having no junior club members came about because of the requirement of club members to be CRB checked if they had any contact with kids at the members own expense. That was the reason that was given by the MKMRS for not taking junior members anymore. 

Regards Lez. 

While it is good practice to have someone designated to have a DBS check it is not mandatory. A club could have a policy of accepting under 16’s with an accompanying adult for instance and then that adult is responsible for the child. That’s a real shame if clubs are turning away juniors because of this. I joined a club at 14 and that definitely put me on a solid path of learning. 
 

Jay

[MJI]

Anothet news article

 

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/jan/14/an-aged-hobby-enthusiasts-struggle-to-keep-model-railway-industry-on-track

[Tony Wright]

I mentioned the decline in kit-building.

 

How's this for an example?

 

 

Bachmann's RTR J11 from a few years ago. Superb? Apart from the coupling rod knuckle being the wrong side of the centre crankpin!

 

 

And look at the detail.

 

With a bit of work, I altered it into this............

 

 

 

A bit of detailing/renumbering/weathering and it's probably better than how my latest Little Engines J11 build might turn out. 

 

Why bother then? Because it's more important to me that I make my own locos, not just buy them RTR (and take them further). I think I'm definitely in a minority..................

 

This one is now the property of a delighted friend.

 

More on my J11 build tomorrow.................

 

 

Edited January 14 by Tony Wright
to add something

[MarkC]

48 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

Why bother then? Because it's more important to me that I make my own locos, not just buy them RTR (and take them further). I think I'm definitely in a minority..................

 

Some of my present stock is modified/repainted/renumbered RTR, but will usually be regarded as merely fulfilling an operational requirement until a kitbuilt or scratchbuilt model replaces it...

 

...so please count me in as part of your minority, Tony 😎

 

Mark

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

On the railway, we could also accumulate compensatory leave days for working bank holidays, which helps but not all jobs involve BH working so it's not an option for many. 

The best gig was being on call on a PH - you didn't even have to go to work!

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, lezz01 said:

I believe that one of the problems with having no junior club members came about because of the requirement of club members to be CRB checked if they had any contact with kids at the members own expense. That was the reason that was given by the MKMRS for not taking junior members anymore. 

Regards Lez. 

Some clubs that I've been involved with required a nominated parent/guardian to accompany the junior member at all times. In a few cases, some of those adults are still members in their own right while the youngsters have moved on to other pastimes.

[billbedford]

4 hours ago, gr.king said:

Why on earth the Telegraph sees recent years' TV coverage as a failed saviour (via a silly bake-off style, rushed, dumbed down version of modelling, or a look at what various "celebrities" have in the way of a trainset / model railway interests) I really do not know.

 

It's just clickbait, best to ignore it. 

[billbedford]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Bachmann's RTR J11 from a few years ago. Superb? Apart from the coupling rod knuckle being the wrong side of the centre crankpin!

 

Are you sure about that? all the photos I could turn up tonight have the knuckle behind the crankpin. 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, billbedford said:

 

Are you sure about that? all the photos I could turn up tonight have the knuckle behind the crankpin. 

 

The Bachmann J11 is, in my view, one of the best RTR locos ever produced. I could find very little wrong with it and although I am very much a maker rather than a buyer, I couldn't resist getting hold of a "Collector's Club" version in GCR livery. Several years later it is still in its box but it may get a new set of frames in EM gauge at some point. The body and livery is as good as any model I have seen.

 

The only faults I would pick with it would be that under the boiler you can see a solid block rather than down into the frames/inside motion and the usual RTR great big hexagonal crankpin retainers, plus wheels rather coarser than I am used to working with. If mine does get new frames, that will sort those problems out. The placement of the coupling rod knuckle is, as you say, quite correct for all the examples I am familiar with.

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, billbedford said:

 

Are you sure about that? all the photos I could turn up tonight have the knuckle behind the crankpin. 

Good morning Bill,

 

'Are you sure about that? all the photos I could turn up tonight have the knuckle behind the crankpin.'

 

Evidently, no!

 

 

 

I obviously need more-powerful specs!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited January 15 by Tony Wright
tautology

[Chamby]

My club in deepest Cornwall is currently having an interesting, sometimes emotional debate about its future direction.  We have the typical boomer-centric demographic but with a significant minority of younger members who are still working.  We get a regular trickle of new members and are having to adapt to keep them on board, whilst some older members have faded away.

 

The current longer serving membership are now mostly retired and increasingly prefer to meet during the daytime, and avail themselves regularly of the on-site cafe!  They mostly model in fine scale and do a lot of scratch building, we have an exhibition quality layout that has been many years in the making.

 

Newer members are a mix of newly retired and working age enthusiasts, the former fit in easily enough with the retirees but the younger ones are only around in the evening.  Both however, typically turn up initially with RTR stuff, often older second hand items, and following open discussions it has emerged that most of them are intimidated by the clubs main finescale layout and are holding off becoming engaged in building its replacement.  However, enthusiasm is emerging for a club layout built to less exacting standards, using more proprietary items such as code 100 streamline track work.  Something that will be more tolerant of people’s learning curves, suitable for their older RTR collection… dare I say less intimidating modelling-wise.  The possibility of starting a new layout built along these lines is slated for discussion at our AGM next month, possibly to be the focus of our members attending in the evening.

 

My point being, new members need encouragement and acceptance at an entry-level for the hobby, basic abilities need to be accommodated and provision made for them to grow step-by-step in modelling ability until they are able to migrate to the higher level of modelling that others take for granted.  Expecting them to jump in at the deep end with those who often have a lifetime of experience, they see as a big ask.  

[gr.king]

It has been mentioned that the good Bachmann J11 has no J11/3 counterpart.  I am sure that the early advertising for Bachmann's J11 included references to a proposal for what was evidently supposed to be a J11/3, but I am equally sure that the advertising that I read referred very clumsily to just a low-chimney and/or low dome version, quite ignoring the fact that the pitch of the boiler has to be higher for a J11/3, the cab front is consequently altered, and the front covers for the piston valves show.  I presume a proper model would require a complete new body and not just some different fittings.  If Bachmann really did not understand all of the differences at that time, perhaps it is best that no "J11/3" version was ever offered...

[billbedford]

36 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 If Bachmann really did not understand all of the differences at that time, perhaps it is best that no "J11/3" version was ever offered...

 

Maybe it's just that the original model didn't sell enough to justify retooling for just 31 locos?

[Sayajirao]

Just idly looking at various online sources, this J11 doesn't appear to have a coupling rod knuckle joint unless it is lost in the low resolution?

[jwealleans]

It's a J17, so not strictly relevant.

[65179]

1 minute ago, Sayajirao said:

Just idly looking at various online sources, this J11 doesn't appear to have a coupling rod knuckle joint unless it is lost in the low resolution?

 

That's a J17 not a J11 though.

 

Regards,

Simon

[Michael Edge]

The J17 doesn't have a knuckle joint, leading and trailing rods are overlapped on the middle crankpin.