Wright writes.....

[John Tomlinson]

On 28/02/2024 at 10:24, jwealleans said:

 

When I was an undergraduate, given its history of activism which had started in 1968 and still went on, it was generally known as the 'People's Republic of King's'.

 

Indeed, although probably earlier than that.

 

My headmaster had been at King's in the 1930's, and like many at the time was a Marxist.

 

I do recall as late as 1974 him telling us with a completely straight face, that Mao's China had not experienced any famines after 1949 thanks to the benefits of the new system. Ahem!!

 

John.

[jwealleans]

The whole University was a bit of a hotbed of pinko subversives all through the 1930s as far as I can see, although none of the Cambridge Five were at King's.   When I was there in the 1980s, my next door neighbour (later Chief Economist at the IMF) used to joke that their department motto was 'Is there anything Left of Cambridge Economics?'.   There were very overt campaigns to induce Barclays to disinvest from apartheid South Africa and in support of the Miners.   I have to say my innate cynicism just made me wonder how much of it was trust funded posturing.

[cctransuk]

52 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I'd like to see chassis blocks have a removable section to allow us to implement our own priorities.

 

Spot on - with the removable section cast in / machined from the densest metal commercially viable.

 

John Isherwood.

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Which precisely describes the problems I had when building OO locos in my early days.,I always built the chassis first and get it running smoothly. Then I would bolt the loco body to it and it wouldn't run as well!

 

 

Which is exactly why I don't do this, I build the frames with cylinders/motion bracket/footplate supports and put the wheels on, then leave that until the body is complete. I also leave the bottom edges of the buffer beams clear and easily available as reference surfaces until the boiler (or engine casing for diesel locos) is fixed in place - then I know the body is square and won't distort the frames. Our kits are all designed with this sequence in mind although I do accept that springing or compensation does make this less necessary.

[Michael Edge]

58 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mike,

 

I admit to having 'twisted' a set of etched frames true from time to time because there was a slight rock, even though they'd been Jamieson jig assembled.

 

As you allude to, when screwing the body on, it can impart a twist to the chassis. If this occurs (and it's often with an etched chassis), I identify where the diagonal rock is and fix little pads of thin Plastikard to the underneath of the body, diagonally opposite, where it meets the frames. This is a simple cure. 

 

In fairness, when I've built 'battleship' frames from one 16th brass (Jamieson-style) and then erected, say, a Jamieson sheet metal body, it's that body which 'twists' if necessary, not the frames.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I do put little pads in if something goes wrong but I usually solder in thin shims of metal.

The old fashioned "battleship" frames do behave more like bar frames (which don't twist) than plate frames. The difference with bar frames is one reason why American loco practice went to compensation much earlier and much more than European builders did (the other reason was very poor track of course).

[Barry Ten]

Just my minor contribution to the chassis topic, but I don't (usually) bolt them on at each end. I fix one end tightly, but arrange the other to be retained, but allowed some slight give (both lengthways and sideways). Often that retention is achieved by just sliding the front frame spacer beneath the back of the screw-link coupling.

Edited March 1 by Barry Ten
truthfulness

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Spot on - with the removable section cast in / machined from the densest metal commercially viable.

 

John Isherwood.

Tungsten is perfect for this, being relatively cheap when compared to its density.  Cheap lumps can be found on ebay, along with many thicknesses of it in sheet form.  I definitely want to build locomotives and rolling stock from it, as the weight benefit should allow for maximum space for big speakers, flywheels, and other things too, while keeping lots of weight.

[Barry Ten]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 There were very overt campaigns to induce Barclays to disinvest from apartheid South Africa and in support of the Miners.   I have to say my innate cynicism just made me wonder how much of it was trust funded posturing.

 

In the 80s, at least in Newcastle, it would have been a brave student who attempted to open an account with Barclays. I think there was a kind of picket-line you had to cross. I went with Lloyds, much easier.

Edited March 1 by Barry Ten
typo

[Tony Teague]

5 hours ago, NHY 581 said:

 

Sorry Tony, when I said vast majority, I meant in the context of those so inclined to purchase factory fitted sound locos. 

 

Rob

Understood!

[john new]

58 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

In the 80s, at least in Newcastle, it would have been a brave student who attempted to open an account with Barclays. I think there was a kind of picket-line you had to cross. I went with Lloyds, much easier.

And the personal economic boycotts by avoiding buying tinned fruit etc., from S Africa for the same anti-apartheid reasons.

[Willie Whizz]

I never bothered much about the fruit, but it was some way into the 21st Century before I could bring myself to purchase either South African or (for a different reason) Argentinian wine. 

[PupCam]

9 hours ago, john new said:

<snip> I am not quite as anti DCC as some as I am trying to modernise my 71 year old brain to master it. I have three diesels bought with sound as I wanted to try it out.

 

Personally I think good sound at an appropriate level can add another, amazing extra dimension of atmosphere and realism but it maybe that sound is  generally inappropriate in a public setting as the dualling banjo music and clanging bells from the American logging layout never meshes nicely with a the thrumming sound of a few Class 20s, Class 47s and maybe even the odd Deltic sitting in the loco yard on the layout next door.

 

9 hours ago, john new said:

<snip>  Not finding them to be what I wanted. Horn sound on two of them is not right to my ear and for two of the others so many options that if you haven’t passed out as driver on the real thing you’ve  no idea when to use them or for things like flange squeal have forgotten the button sequence to activate them at an appropriate spot on the track! As for steam sounds most of what I have heard on other people’s examples is no better generally than Hornby’s old sand paper tricks.

 

(My emphasis)  I happen to think the capabilities of DCC with sound are excellent but the thing that really puts me right off is the need to move one's focus from the scene in hand to something that looks like a complicated calculator.   On top of that you then have to remember all of the cryptic and illogical F6, Shift F12, etc codes (which often differ between manufactures / sound project creators/loco types) and know when to apply them and then remember to apply them at the appropriate times.   This pet hate has taken me down another path ....

 

With the advent of DCC++ EX*   The opportunity exists to provide a hand controller dedicated to a specific locomotive (type) which opens up a number of possibilities.    Now, this will seem completely counter-intuitive to the expert DCC user where the general cut and thrust is that one controller controls everything and you just change the loco  number (i.e. the decoder address) to the one that you want to control next but bear with me.

 

If you build an intelligent, dedicated hand controller suited to the specific locomotive (we'll pick on an 08 as that happens to be what I have been working on for an example) it can have replicas of all the relevant controls for that locomotive.   It can also include replicas of the (normally quite basic) instrumentation of the real thing and it can start to emulate the operation of a real locomotive rather than just "twiddling a go-faster knob".    The really important part is that it rather than you can take charge of operating all those things on a locomotive that make those noises for which otherwise  you would normally have to remember to press Shift F16 + F5 (or whatever ....) at the right moment!

 

How does it do this?    By building a digital (aka computer) model of the locomotive and its systems.  So, my 08 controller models the locomotives speed, its air and vacuum brake systems, its fuel system and a host of other things.   It also enforces the "correct" operation of the loco. 

 

For example;  The 08 has a hand fuel pump used to transfer fuel prior to starting the engine.  There's a sound effect of the pump in the decoder (the code might be F11 on your NEC Powercab) which would probably never get used  in your race to get that wagon from over here to over there.    But in my world the driver (that'll be you then) has to transfer some fuel by operating the pump switch which will then enable him ** to start the engine with the engine start button.   Once the engine starts the compressor switches on automatically (some other F code, it's not a real-driver function) and, if the train is to be vacuum braked, the vacuum ejector starts (yet another F code).      Of course, you can't instantly pull sufficient vacuum for the train brakes to be released from the start or generate sufficient air pressure to release the locomotive brake.    It takes time to build and this is the sort of thing that the digital model models.    When the compressor and exhauster have done their stuff and the levels are correct "the locomotive's system" automatically stops them (yes, you've guessed it more flaming F codes) but at least you, the driver in model world, don't need to do anything just like in the real world.

 

So there you are in the cab of your 08 with its engine ticking over and the brake pressures all looking good.   You release the brakes by moving the brake handle (more F codes) and open the throttle and start to drag a couple of vans and a mineral wagon down the siding.    You see your mate across the way and press the horn button to sound the horn to attract his attention.    You check your speed by closing the throttle with a dab on the brake handle  (you've guessed it ...).   Of course, using the brake consumes some air pressure and vacuum but but the pressures are still within limits so nothing happens.   As you approach your intended stopping point a firmer application of brakes is required so suitable brake handle action is required.  Continued use depletes the brake system reserves and finally the air compressor and exhauster have to start up to replenish the systems (yet more F codes ......) and when replenished they switch off ( more codes, yes well you get the picture!)

 

Here is a video clip of an early test run.    The point to note here is that I just operated the  engine start button, the throttle, the brake handle and the horn button  to drive the loco,  I did not at any time have to enter a flaming F code to turn the Spirax valve, the compressor or exhauster on or off, to set the flange squeal etc etc  😁     The behaviour of the model continues to be refined  since the video was made as my knowledge of 08s and their systems continues to increase.   Ideally, all of the complicated functionality embedded in my locomotive hand controller (i.e. the digital model) would actually be transferred to the decoder.  There would be a number of benefits to do so but unfortunately I do not know if there is spare capacity to do so and writing decoder-embedded software definitely lies outside my skill set!

 

Anyway, this is the current prototype controller; it's relatively cheap (the processor board with WiFi ~£5!),  it's purely functional, is incomplete and is not "pretty".   Hopefully the final one will be much more ergonomic.    Note: my comment about not needing to know about electronics or software in order to build a working DCC++EX controller does not apply to the development of this 08 hand controller!

 

   

 

 

Anyway, isn't the internet wonderful!    I've got a comprehensive set of information on the 08 including the details of the engine, generator, brakes, air and vacuum systems, fuel system which makes fascinating reading for someone who spent their entire working life in the aerospace industry (so I'm no real engine driver),   I just "went on trains" occasionally as a passenger and of course I've never been on an 08.    Now, any help from real diesel drivers (particularly of 08s) out there that can help develop my elementary understanding of driving locomotives would be most welcome.

 

As of course this is Wright Writes and such matters as prototypical driving  are not normally aired amongst the more typical photographs of superb modelling I will just throw this in the philosophical discussion pond for the weekend.     Is prototypical driving (the ability to drive the engine in the manner of the prototype) any more or less important or relevant than say, the use of prototypical train formations, the correct brick bond on the railway buildings,  the use of accurate colours and markings on rolling stock, correctly operated and observed signalling or, dare I say it, the use of correct lamp codes on locomotives on a model railway?

 

Clearly the approach I've outlined here is not suitable for many layouts including LB.     We know Tony is never going to be buying DCC decoders for every loco (or any loco come to that)  in the LB stud.  Also, there's probably not enough room in the shed  to house a separate controller for every class let alone every individual loco and this is of course applies to many (but not all) larger layouts.

 

But horses for courses and all that,  I think there may be a little corner somewhere in the world of model railways for  PuppersProtoEngineDriver ™. 

 

Alan

 

 

*  For those who are unaware:  

 

DCC++ EX is a cheap, home built DCC system based on the ubiquitous Arduino processor, a couple of cheap plug-in modules and some open source software that crucially does not demand an extensive knowledge of electronics or software to get working.     It can be controlled by a wired hand controller or connected by WiFi to a remote handheld device (dedicated hand control, mobile phone App)

 

** Other genders are of course available

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by PupCam
A bit of re-phrasing

[Northmoor]

@PupCam Or you could save a small fortune, make the Vroom Vroom and Chuff Chuff noises yourself and use your imagination.....

 

Seriously though, if I wanted sound on my railway, it would come from a speaker under the layout, not on the trains.  When you observe the real railway, you stand in one place and get the doppler effect as a train goes past; if the noise comes from the model locomotive you don't get that.  The sound needs to be of the location - so all the background noises as well - not the train.

Edited March 1 by Northmoor

[john new]

On the modelling front and talking of jigs, or lack of, a traverser I made with only set squares and clamps to set it up but managed to get everything that slides parallel after the soldering job.  Built for an On15 layout back in 2011 but has been in store ever since! It would equally work for N and possibly OO for two tracks feeding one. Could be made longer with extra tubes but probably not wider. The moveable outer brass tube (fixed to the traverser frame) slides over the base tubes and carries the electrical contact for each track. (9mm so suits NG or N Gauge) One tube for each feed (One road live only at a time) and the fourth a common return. Analogue with common return and tracks switched on/off on a control panel. Not seen anyone else use this technique but it was one of the experiments I tried that did work as intended, Decking I used was photo mount card, the angled braces upside down flat bottom rail.

[Edit: I need to look at it again to seen how I isolated the tubes from the L girders. I have forgotten. Probably a mix of glue and soldered copper clad sleepers, live side down] 

 

Why in store? I promised it for a show unstarted and intending to use some experimental base ideas. They failed and in starting again in a rush under deadline pressure I got so sick of the sight of it by exhibition date it got stuck in the shed and left once I got it back after its' only outing. I will get back to it eventually but the 'burn out' put me off modelling for several months. Lesson firmly learnt, only promise a layout when it is already advanced enough to take it 'as is' even if still as a WIP. I still like the concept so over the summer ideally I should dig this one out for a repair and refurbishment job.

 

Photo 1 taken before I cut the section gaps into copper clad strip and added the deck and tracks,.

Photo 2 must have been done in a hurry some time later as the overoof is on backwards and had been damaged. The row of ridge roof covering was one of the didn't get finished in time items!

Edited March 2 by john new
Missed a bit out.

[Barry Ten]

I've finally got around to weathering the Nu-Cast 2021 I started a year or two back. Just a few small bits to add and then I can start another loco kit with a clear conscience.

 

Here's a short clip of the 2021 on a test train of 19 wagons.

 

 

[APOLLO]

37 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

@PupCam Or you could save a small fortune, make the Vroom Vroom and Chuff Chuff noises yourself and use your imagination.....

 

Seriously though, if I wanted sound on my railway, it would come from a speaker under the layout, not on the trains.  When you observe the real railway, you get the doppler effect as a train goes past; if the noise comes from the model locomotive you don't get that.  The sound needs to be of the location - so all the background noises as well - not the train.

 

I read about such a system with distributed speakers under the layout in an American model railroad magazine quite a few years ago. The sound moved speaker to speaker somehow. 

 

Model locomotive sound doesn't hack it for me, especially steam, it just does not seem right. Having said that I have two O scale non DCC sound fitted locos. Both Atlas.  Both bought s/hand off ebay, and the first one I did not know it was sound fitted (F7 diesel loco) - scared the living daylight out of me when placed on the track and power was applied !!! The other is a 0-6-0 steam switcher. The "chuff" of which is (to me) unrealistic a tad annoying.

 

On both locos a low voltage starts the sound but no loco movement occurs untill a higher voltage is applied. Various air pump sounds, gurgles, bangs etc are generated. To sound the horn / whistle you toggle the reversing switch, a quick double toggle action sets off the bell noisily !!. You would think the loco would reverse but it doesn't unless you stop it.

 

Very noisy (like many Yanks !!). I don't particularly want anymore, but they are nice locomotives, run and haul well.

 

Brit15

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1 by APOLLO

[PupCam]

7 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

it would come from a speaker under the layout, not on the trains. 

 

You'll be getting even less Doppler from a stationary speaker!  

 

The Doppler from the moving loco is imperceptible (but technically there)  at our scales and speeds but you still get the sense of movement of the engine that wouldn't be present with loco sound from a fixed speaker.  The Doppler is not the only aspect that gives the impression of motion (and in reality diminishes as the minimum distance to the target increases).    If you stand at the middle of a 20' long layout, close your eyes you will be able to tell from which direction the train approaches, when it is level with you and in which direction it is departing (assuming you've got reasonably good and matched hearing) all without the microscopic amount of undetectable Doppler.   Just to play Devil's advocate; if you did so, you  would also have the benefit of the image of a perfect locomotive pulling a perfect rake of coaching stock in your mind's eye that doesn't have to gloss over that terribly wonky dome, those wobbling carriages, the really poor weathering on that sub-standard paintwork,  etc etc 😉     Remember the saying the pictures are better on the radio?

 

I agree that the static sounds of the environment are also needed  to truly complete the sound picture but I do believe that sound can add to the atmosphere and the illusion of a model railway.   It's certainly not compulsory any more than having to work to a perfect gauge/scale relationship is, or use a real rather than imaginary prototype,  exclusion of fixed geometry track work or non-prototypical stock, have working signals etc etc.     

 

And ultimately in the case of dispute I believe Rule 1 applies.

 

 

 

[4630]

43 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Seriously though, if I wanted sound on my railway, it would come from a speaker under the layout, not on the trains.  When you observe the real railway, you get the doppler effect as a train goes past; if the noise comes from the model locomotive you don't get that.  The sound needs to be of the location - so all the background noises as well - not the train.

Agree 100%.  I just don’t find models fitted with sound - be it steam, diesel or electric locomotives - sufficiently convincing.

In some cases I find it just distracts too much from the overall scene that a modeller has tried so hard to create.

 

But a separate sound system as part of the layout, as you describe, is to my mind a far more realistic option. 

 

[LaScala]

3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

I've finally got around to weathering the Nu-Cast 2021 I started a year or two back. Just a few small bits to add and then I can start another loco kit with a clear conscience.

 

Here's a short clip of the 2021 on a test train of 19 wagons.

 

 

Don't you worry 'bout your kit?

Very nice slow steady pace.

[MJI]

Want doppler effect, Valentas were great for this.

[APOLLO]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

Want doppler effect, Valentas were great for this.

 

Stereo too - one at each end !!!!

 

Brit15

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, Northmoor said:

@PupCam Or you could save a small fortune, make the Vroom Vroom and Chuff Chuff noises yourself and use your imagination.....

 

Seriously though, if I wanted sound on my railway, it would come from a speaker under the layout, not on the trains.  When you observe the real railway, you stand in one place and get the doppler effect as a train goes past; if the noise comes from the model locomotive you don't get that.  The sound needs to be of the location - so all the background noises as well - not the train.

Another bugbear, for me, is that when I am at the junction on my layout I don't want to hear what's happening on the branch terminus, which is supposed to be 20-odd miles away but in reality is about 8 feet.

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, PupCam said:

Just to play Devil's advocate; if you did so, you  would also have the benefit of the image of a perfect locomotive pulling a perfect rake of coaching stock in your mind's eye that doesn't have to gloss over that terribly wonky dome, those wobbling carriages, the really poor weathering on that sub-standard paintwork,  etc etc 😉     Remember the saying the pictures are better on the radio?

Let's all stop building layouts and just listen to Peter Handford LPs!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

...listen to Peter Handford LPs...

Now we are cooking with gas. (Some fine CD transfers have been available, yet more convenient.) I propose that one hearing of his recordings on a good stereo set up will leave you never wanting to hear the electric mouse squeakings of DCC* sound ever again. (Small children will spontaneously demonstrate just how good a recording engineer he was. As the train fades into the distance, they get up and look behind the column loudspeaker producing the dominant sound.)

 

Play appropriate selected extracts  on a stereo sound stage roughly aligned with the layout, and your brain does the rest. Because sound is inherently multipath with delays, while light is direct path and instantaneous, we have been 'trained' from infancy to  make the association of moving object with imperfectly matching sound. My late Pa, who early in his career at Phillips spent his weekends with others making use of their recording studios, built his own stereo system once in the UK, and we would play the Handford recordings with the model trains running in the sound stage to great effect.

 

*Bear in mind I am a complete enthusiast for DCC's operational capability: the 'bolt on' of sound is a PITA, because it results in degrading of some RTR models, principally steam tender locos  (in OO leastways).

[Clive Mortimore]

After experimenting with sound I am very much in the the Vroom Vroom and Chuff Chuff noises yourself and use your imagination gang.

 

Just like I imagine the passengers opening the doors of the carriages , the driver pulling the go lever, the shunter coupling up the wagons, the smell of hot oil and steam etc. If sound adds a touch more realism to your model railway, wonderful.

 

I might not prefer sound or even DCC control but remember what Joe Strummer sung

Oh, please mister
Just leave me alone
I'm only
Lookin' for fun
Lookin' for fun
F, U, N

 

Surely that is what we all should be aiming for.

 

 

"Brummm", (wait 4 seconds) "Brummm" as the DMU changes gear.

 

 

Edited March 2 by Clive Mortimore