Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

That is an interesting observation. For those obsessed with prototypical accuracy it hints that the production of a fine scale model is more about Art than science perhaps? A fine oil painting rather than a photograph .... though that of course is another can of worms as I definitely subscribe to the view that at its best Photography is also an art form of great distinction ..... ho hum.

Interesting comments, as always, Tim,

 

Thanks for posting. 

 

With regard to the late (and great) Allan Downes, absolute, prototypical accuracy was not really his strong point with regard to architectural modelling. He was flamboyant and, without a very tight brief, would create (at great speed) incredible flights of fancy. To watch him, fag in mouth, cutting plastic, gluing it, staining it and spraying it (all in one go it seemed like at times), as I tried to take pictures through the whirlwind, will be an abiding memory.  

 

As to photography being an art form, or otherwise, my take on it (apologies for the pun) has always been towards the analytical, even forensic side. I want the crispest image possible - no arty farty mucking about, just razor-sharp imagery, showing things exactly as they are. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Yes, they are certainly very familiar. But are they based on real buildings from the area modelled?

 

G

Unlikely!

Edited August 23, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Chamby]

Being a pure and virtuous sort of chap, I assume that 'FFS' is the hull designation symbol for a stealth frigate...

FFS is to normally to be found on the side of Swiss railway locomotives and rolling stock, usually preceded by the additional acronyms SBB and CFF. They mean the same thing, but in different languages...

[Jol Wilkinson]

The GN was known for not spending money where it wasn't required, and the finish of the coaching stock is a perfect example.

 

The LNWR were also not overfond of spending money, which does little to explain what was the finest carriage livery ever produced.

[Lecorbusier]

The LNWR were also not overfond of spending money, which does little to explain what was the finest carriage livery ever produced. 

 

Hmmmmm!    

 

 

             

Edited August 23, 2018 by Lecorbusier

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hmmmmm!    

 

MR 901 Six-wheel Composite 22,10,2012.jpg

 

             

Tim

 

as the price label at the end of the carriage indicates, not a very valuable item really. 

 

Personally, I think the NER carriage livery nicer, without the black on the beading. But that's only if you insist on using red.

 

Jol

[jamie92208]

The LNWR were also not overfond of spending money, which does little to explain what was the finest carriage livery ever produced.

Neither were the GWR. The Midland however used lots of coats of varnish so that the coaches only needed repainting every 7 years rather than every 3 or 4. They'd also worked out that it was better to spend a bit of extra capital on their new lines to keep the gradients reasonable rather than spend extra from the revenue account for ever to come with double heading etc to get their trains over the road. The gradient profiles of the LNWR's Leeds New Line that needed double heading to the end of steam was very different to the proposed Midland line up the same Spen Valley that would have had a maximum gradient of 1 in 200.

 

 

Jamie

Edited August 23, 2018 by jamie92208

[Lecorbusier]

Tim

 

as the price label at the end of the carriage indicates, not a very valuable item really. 

 

Personally, I think the NER carriage livery nicer, without the black on the beading. But that's only if you insist on using red.

 

Jol

Ah Jol ..... but we haven't even got on to the Clerestory stock yet ! In true Debyshire ..... Smashing!

[LNER4479]

FFS is to normally to be found on the side of Swiss railway locomotives and rolling stock, usually preceded by the additional acronyms SBB and CFF. They mean the same thing, but in different languages...

 

And then there's always this railway ...

 

[newbryford]

FFS is to normally to be found on the side of Swiss railway locomotives and rolling stock, usually preceded by the additional acronyms SBB and CFF. They mean the same thing, but in different languages...

 

And there's always the Furka-Oberalp 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Lecorbusier]

As to photography being an art form, or otherwise, my take on it (apologies for the pun) has always been towards the analytical, even forensic side. I want the crispest image possible - no arty farty mucking about, just razor-sharp imagery, showing things exactly as they are. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I have always regarded your photography as a very fine example of the 'craft' ..... and craftsmanship is much to be desired in this day and age. You also have and 'eye' for a composition which is where the debate gets more complex and craft and art could be said to collide (you can be possessed of all the craft in the world and still produce mediocrity).

 

However, if we think of photographers such as Man Ray, or Henri Cartier Bresson (to take 2 disparate historic examples at random) I think the term 'artist' is hard to dispute, whatever your own personal tastes?

[Gibbo675]

I have always regarded your photography as a very fine example of the 'craft' ..... and craftsmanship is much to be desired in this day and age. You also have and 'eye' for a composition which is where the debate gets more complex and craft and art could be said to collide (you can be possessed of all the craft in the world and still produce mediocrity).

 

However, if we think of photographers such as Man Ray, or Henri Cartier Bresson (to take 2 disparate historic examples at random) I think the term 'artist' is hard to dispute, whatever your own personal tastes?

I have seen some VERY artistic photos in my time.

 

Oo-err missus, Arf-Arf !

[Tony Teague]

As part of on-going bartering, I've taken some pictures of Ian Wilson's O Gauge ironstone line he's constructing. 

 

iron ore line 03.jpg

 

iron ore line 04.jpg

 

The cottages in the foreground of the second picture are the work of the late Allan Downes. His style is instantly-recognisable!

 

Noting the comments as to the likely prototypical accuracy of Allan Downes cottages here, my reaction on seeing the picture was that the cottages were built from a pretty good representation of Northamptonshire ironstone - and so they would be highly appropriate to an ironstone based layout - prototypical or not.

 

Tony

[Tony Wright]

Noting the comments as to the likely prototypical accuracy of Allan Downes cottages here, my reaction on seeing the picture was that the cottages were built from a pretty good representation of Northamptonshire ironstone - and so they would be highly appropriate to an ironstone based layout - prototypical or not.

 

Tony

Thanks Tony,

 

I think Allan had a 'generic' style when it came to buildings (particularly vernacular ones), where he'd use the same moulded or cast sheets, then paint/stain them in whichever type of colour suited a particular location. 

 

He had a good eye for colour, though not necessarily railway 'accuracy'. I'd taken pictures of what survived of his Piper's Mead, and commented on the position of a splitting distant. The signal made no sense. There was no junction coming up for it to protect, and no home signals beyond it. I made these points to Allan, and the response was (in his inimitable style) 'Yeah, you're right Tone, but don't the yellow arms complement the colours of the barn behind it?' They did. 

 

How many 'standard' churches he made, I have no idea, but his cathedral for Mimmo was amazing. Even built to half scale (for an O Gauge layout) it was still massive. The 'bishop's eye' window surround in one of the transepts was made from the rim of a large margarine tub!

 

His like will never be seen again. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

Returning to Deltics briefly .....

 

I have recently watched this excellent Time Shift documentary on the Diesel engine. At around 38 mins into the documentary their is an excellent section on the Deltic and in particular the fantastic engine design. If people haven't seen it, it may be of passing interest.

 

[grahame]

Yesterday I was out and managed to acquire (FOC) a white metal kit of a steamer so I've got a new modelling project which should fit the preferred, if rather limited and dated backward looking genre, of many who frequent this thread. Snag is that I need to find a suitable donor chassis, but can you tell what it is yet (they all look rather samey to me):

 

 

G.

 

 

 

[micklner]

SR Z class ?

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Grahame

 

A Z class 0-8-0T? Is it designed to fit on a Farish 8F chassis?

[Tony Wright]

Yesterday I was out and managed to acquire (FOC) a white metal kit of a steamer so I've got a new modelling project which should fit the preferred, if rather limited and dated backward looking genre, of many who frequent this thread. Snag is that I need to find a suitable donor chassis, but can you tell what it is yet (they all look rather samey to me):

 

DSC_6507cr.jpg

 

G.

It is a Southern Class Z, Grahame,

 

There were eight of them, and (in BR days) worked from the sheds at Tonbridge, Three Bridges, Ashford, Templecombe, Brighton and Salisbury (among others), mainly on short-distance trip freights or yard shunting. 

 

If you wish to 'go further' in your geographical modelling, several ended their days as bankers between Exeter St. Davids and Exeter Central, shedded at Exmouth Junction. 

 

I built a DMR kit for one, many years ago (writing it up for the press). I think they're rather splendid-looking locos - full of character, outside valve gear and, (dare I say it?) much more interesting that anything 'boxy'! 

 

Unfortunately, I can't find the images of the Z I built (they'll be on MF transparency.

 

However, how about another Southern big tank? 

 

 

I built this from a SE Finecast kit. I think the SR large tanks had a definite style.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grahame]

SR Z class ?

 

 

Hi Grahame

 

A Z class 0-8-0T? Is it designed to fit on a Farish 8F chassis?

 

 

It is a Southern Class Z, Grahame,

 

Tony. 

 

Yep, correct:

 

 

I was surprised that there was so many parts in the kit. So far I've knocked up the basic body and given it a dusting of primer to see where any filler is required or more smoothing before adding the fragile detailing parts. It's only a body kit so I do need to source a suitable 8F 2-8-0 chassis that is it designed for.

 

G.

[grahame]

There's probably very few of those who frequesnt this thread that check out my N/2mm buildings thread elsewhere on RMweb (details/link in my signature section below), so here's a recent model that I've been working on before getting distracted by the white metal behemoth:

 

 

As usual, for my modelling, it's not finished.

 

G.

 

[grahame]

 

I built a DMR kit for one, many years ago (writing it up for the press). I think they're rather splendid-looking locos - full of character, outside valve gear and, (dare I say it?) much more interesting that anything 'boxy'! 

 

 

Actually I do find the Raworth/Bulleid 'booster' locos, although I agree 'boxy', are even more interesting and a fascinating part of electric traction history. Here's my model of one :

 

 

G.

[Tony Wright]

Actually I do find the Raworth/Bulleid 'booster' locos, although I agree 'boxy', are even more interesting and a fascinating part of electric traction history. Here's my model of one :

 

Booster stack 2crop.jpg

 

G.

That's a lovely model, Grahame,

 

I've never made anything like that.

 

I think I'll stick (or solder?) with what I know - that's tubes, cones, cylinders and cuboids.

 

Which produce things like this..............

 

 

 

 

 

This is the second SE Finecast J6 I've built, and I've just painted it. It's crying out to be weathered (which will be done soon). It tows a more-appropriate LRM tender. The one supplied is all right for a few J6s, but the symmetrical-wheelbase type was by far the more common. 

 

J6s frequently come up on various wish-lists, and appear to score quite highly. For now, though, it's kit-building, and the hobby, in my opinion, is richer for it. I imagine you feel the same way about N Gauge items (I refuse to call it N Scale). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[grahame]

For now, though, it's kit-building, and the hobby, in my opinion, is richer for it. I imagine you feel the same way about N Gauge items (I refuse to call it N Scale). 

 

 

Yep, without kit and scratch building it's hardly a modelling (and certainly not a constructional) hobby.

 

And yes, it is 'N Gauge' as the N stands for the track gauge in milimeters - nine. More recently 'N Gauge' tends to refer to British N Gauge scale at 1:148 while 'N Scale' refers to continental and American at 1:160 (although why that should be for Continental modeling as N Gauge was originally settled on as N is the first letter of nine in most European languages, and gawd only knows why Bachmann/Farish have started calling their 1:148 range 'N Scale'). The Japanese still mostly use 'N Gauge' as branding although their models are 1:150 and 1:160 scales.

 

G

[jamie92208]

Yep, without kit and scratch building it's hardly a modelling (and certainly not a constructional) hobby.

 

And yes, it is 'N Gauge' as the N stands for the track gauge in milimeters - nine. More recently 'N Gauge' tends to refer to British N Gauge scale at 1:148 while 'N Scale' refers to continental and American at 1:160 (although why that should be for Continental modeling as N Gauge was originally settled on as N is the first letter of nine in most European languages, and gawd only knows why Bachmann/Farish have started calling their 1:148 range 'N Scale'). The Japanese still mostly use 'N Gauge' as branding although their models are 1:150 and 1:160 scales.

 

G

And there was me who thought that 00/HO/EM/P4 etc was complicated.....

 

Jamie

[Tony Wright]

Yep, without kit and scratch building it's hardly a modelling (and certainly not a constructional) hobby.

 

And yes, it is 'N Gauge' as the N stands for the track gauge in milimeters - nine. More recently 'N Gauge' tends to refer to British N Gauge scale at 1:148 while 'N Scale' refers to continental and American at 1:160 (although why that should be for Continental modeling as N Gauge was originally settled on as N is the first letter of nine in most European languages, and gawd only knows why Bachmann/Farish have started calling their 1:148 range 'N Scale'). The Japanese still mostly use 'N Gauge' as branding although their models are 1:150 and 1:160 scales.

 

G

I think some firms refer to the most popular (in terms of participants) gauge as OO Scale these days. 

 

I'm rather puzzled, because how can a gauge be a scale? As you say, 'N' refers to the first letter of the gauge, and cannot be a scale. 

 

I suppose the situation with regard to the scale/gauge nomenclature in this hobby has always been a bit muddled by the mixing of metric and imperial measurement - 4mm to the foot, for instance. It's carried on in other areas as well - folk will buy, say, two metres of  2" x 1" timber. 

 

Do those who use 3.5mm to the foot call it HO Scale?

 

To the newcomer (and even those who've been in the hobby a while) it's all a bit puzzling. 

 

I agree entirely with your comments about the hobby not being a 'modelling' one without kit or scratch-building. This has been aired before, but I do see a decline in the 'constructional' side of things. The reasons are many but to me include......

 

A current preponderance of (better) RTR and RTP items, and to that can be added trackwork.

 

A decline in the skill-set of participants in the hobby. This is contentious, I know, but one only has to look at the media and realise how many layouts are 'clones' of each other, with a parade (in many cases) of what the RTR manufacturers give us (or sell to us). 

 

A causal decline in the number of kits being sold.

 

Fewer newcomers coming into the hobby who have a background in 'making things', and fewer newcomers, anyway.

 

The rise of the 'gentleman (or gentlewoman) modeller'. He/she is often of retirement age, cash 'rich', time 'rich', space 'rich', but skill poor. At least they keep professional modellers in work, but often the end results don't 'work' - largely because the owners don't have a clue how what they've paid for actually works. Not just that, they're stuffed when things go wrong!

 

In the past, things made tended to be 'superior' to RTR items, but the opposite is now true. It's a powerful disincentive to produce blood, sweat and tears in making, say, a loco, only for the end result to be worse-looking than something anyone with the cash can buy out-of-the-box.  

 

By way of examples...................

 

 

This is a Hornby A4, modified and detailed by Jesse Sim. The overall shape of this streak is just about perfect. The carriages are part of the Grantham complement, built by members of that team. At least decent Gresley teaks still have have to be made - such as these. 

 

 

This is the SE Finecast A4 I built for Shap. I built it because any RTR A4 won't have the pulling power up the gradient, but the overall (and very elusive) shape isn't quite as good as the Hornby A4. Where it does score, I suppose, is in its much better rendition of the motion. Ian Rathbone painted it, and the overall cost would be that of over five RTR equivalents! Food for thought. 

 

 

With a Tom Foster (I think) weathering job, this Hornby A3 has been raised to the very-realistic. 

 

 

More realistic than my old Wills example? In every way, this is more lumpen, but it does score over its RTR rival in performance. 

 

 

This Stirling Single was borrowed by Locomotion for eighteen months as a 'taster' for what was to come RTR. It's seen running on Grantham with a train of deliciously antiquarian stock (nothing like this being available RTR - fortunately?). The 4-2-2 is the property of Dan Pinnock, but its provenance is unknown. It's scratch-built throughout, and, though it's not signed, it looks like the painting of Alan Brackenborough (or another top painter). What would such a loco cost today, if commissioned? With that paint job, probably the 'wrong' side of £1,750.00!

 

 

And now, for just in excess of £200.00(?), this Rapido Stirling Single is available. Speaking with professional painters, just to produce this quality of livery you'd have to add at least £100.00! 

 

See what I mean about building being a disincentive these days? 

 

Fortunately (I try to look on the bright side), there are 'shafts of light'. The innovative stuff being produced in N Gauge by the likes of Atso, employing the new technologies, is very, very interesting. 

 

Folk I'm tutoring are eager to learn, because they want to build things by themselves and for themselves (even though they're gentlemen). All are younger than I am, too. 

 

And, a fortnight ago, I was treated to a wonderful procession of LNER trains running on LB. Almost all of these had been made (beautifully). Not only that, with one exception (just a month), all the Grantham builders are younger than I am.

 

There is hope, and optimism. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Tony Wright