Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

None whatsoever, once painted and weathered, what little gap you may see will disappear.

 

I thought I was making an o2/2, what needs to be altered to make it one?

The prototype would have started out as an O2/2, Jesse, but the model's got a B1 boiler, which makes it into an O2/4. It'll still retain the GN cab. 

 

Nothing needs altering, other than changing the drive to the RH side and fitting a front buffer beam without the bottom cut-outs. You'll also have to add new buffers.

 

Like this................

 

 

This started out as a Heljan O2/3, and I just made a GNR tender for it, fitted a GN cab, altered the drive and made a new front buffer beam. The replacement buffers came from Replica. I'll send you a set as a Christmas present. 

 

I also replaced the rather poor chimney.....................

Edited December 6, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Very true dear heart, however, where on the ECML was there a series of inclines such as those west of Exeter? One could, I suppose, argue that the Engineers could have tried to use a less challenging route, however the GWR would then have not reached south Devon and that other County further down. The racing character of the GN/NE was thanks to the lie of the land and consequently the loco's were built to speed for long distances (except Peterborough North and a couple of other SRs). 

Nevertheless, one does have to admire the performances of the 'foreign' machines on that series of hills, that showed their capabilities, during the exchanges. Admirable.

We can all jibe another's love of certain classes of locomotive, however they were almost all brilliant pieces of kit.

As an aside, like me when a weedy little scruff just crawling into Secondary Education way, way back, did anyone else at that time think that actual 'foreign' locomotives(that is those abroad) looked strange and even ugly. I changed my opinions on that many years ago.

Phil

You're right, of course, Phil,

 

However, the Edinburgh-Aberdeen road was just as challenging, and much, much longer. Hence Gresley's building of the P2s. 

 

Reading accounts of the Locomotive Exchanges, it seems the A4s took those nasty banks very well (until the broke down!), and recorded the best figures of all the comparative classes in terms of economy. The King on the GN lacked sparkle, and consumed far more coal. In fairness, it was burning Barnsley soft stuff (instead of its native hard, Welsh coal), and it was, by around a decade, the oldest of the participants. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[APOLLO]

For me the Brush Type 4 (Class 47) was one of the greatest British diesel designs of all time - looked "just right" next to a dirty old Black 8 or a modern Pendolino. There are other nice looking diesels (from the 60's), but not built in quantity like the Brush 4 was - over 500 and some still going strong.

 

I don't model American railroads for their beautiful locomotives (of which there were very, very few), more for the dramatic scenery, variety of rolling stock with the many "fallen flag" railroad names and colourful liveries. My latest Loco is an Atlas Alco Century - plain black - perhaps one of the ugliest & most boring locos ever made. Runs well though !! 

 

Double heading was mentioned a few posts back. Such was a very rare event around Wigan, though four routes around town had fierce gradients and banking was common in the days of steam. For the record, regular banking duties were -

 

1. WCML Wigan North Western up past Whitley Crossing, Boars Head to Standish Junction (where the 4 tracks commenced). it was usual for the Wigan NW pilot loco to perform this duty. A Jinty, Black 5 etc usually in the 60's, goods trains only - I never saw a passenger train banked. My above photo shows a train that was usually banked, the Super D is working hard, and there are no signs of a banker at the back either.

 

2. Whelley Loop Bamfurlong to Round House Jcn, or dependant on train weight again up to Standish Jcn (where the Whelley loop rejoined the main line). Occasionally banked to the summit at Coppull a couple of miles further north. Usually a Black 5, 8 or WD.

 

3. Ince Moss Jcn to Fir Tree House Jcn - only a few hundred yards but mining subsidence made this gradient very steep.Again if the Whelley loop route was taken at Fir Tree House Jcn the banker would continue with the train. These views show the incline severity from Fir Tree House down to Ince Moss Jcn

 

 

 

 

4. L&Y Pemberton Loop. The Banker (usually a 4F 0-6-0) would bank the heavy coal trains from Yorkshire to Liverpool Docks from Westwood Park signal box up to Orrell, cutting off just before Upholland Tunnel. My only (poor) photo of a banker on this line.

 

 

The diesel hauled freights never needed banking - so all regular banking duties ceased around 1966/7.

 

Edited to add - Does anyone model banking duties ? - I tried a couple of times with the inevitable disastrous results !!

 

Brit15

Edited December 6, 2018 by APOLLO

[Jesse Sim]

The prototype would have started out as an O2/2, Jesse, but the model's got a B1 boiler, which makes it into an O2/4. It'll still retain the GN cab. 

 

Nothing needs altering, other than changing the drive to the RH side and fitting a front buffer beam without the bottom cut-outs. You'll also have to add new buffers.

 

Like this................

 

Trains 13 unfitted freights.jpg

 

This started out as a Heljan O2/3, and I just made a GNR tender for it, fitted a GN cab, altered the drive and made a new front buffer beam. The replacement buffers came from Replica. I'll send you a set as a Christmas present. 

 

I also replaced the rather poor chimney.....................

Oh I get you now, the buffer beam, could it be made out of plasticard? Is there a supplier that sells the correct ones?

 

I don’t know what I’d do without you Tony.

 

Thank you very much.

[Tony Wright]

The various discussions continue to entertain and educate................

 

Regarding those electric unity things, from what's been said they were fast, comfortable and certainly powerful. However, they are no more a 'locomotive' than a Pendolino, or the latest things buzzing past my house (still on trial - for how long?). As such, and this is my opinion, they will never generate the interest which the likes of a Deltic did (and still does). One is rather stuffed in using them on preserved lines as well. 

[Tony Wright]

Oh I get you now, the buffer beam, could it be made out of plasticard? Is there a supplier that sells the correct ones?

 

I don’t know what I’d do without you Tony.

 

Thank you very much.

I've probably got an etched one somewhere. 

 

I'll put it in the same packet..................

[Clive Mortimore]

But it still just looks like a carriage with windows in the end.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Get it out with Optrex. (A favourite Spike Milligan one liner).

 

EMU trains from that time may be quick and powerful but in aesthetics, they don't come close to the early stuff.

 

In the early days, when companies had to compete on service and facilities, spending money on making your trains look like the best ones to ride on was a big part of the game. Later, the appearance was less important due to costs becoming a bigger factor.

 

There were some good looking designs that still appeared but comparing, say, a Class 66 to a Class 47, somewhere in between the designers responsible for the outward appearance packed up and left!

How can anyone not like a AM9?

 

 

I must get mine finished, all six driving cars for a full 10 car unit.

[Tony Wright]

Someone asked for pictures of models............

 

My apologies for their not being Edwardian in splendour, but here goes....................

 

 

As mentioned yesterday, I've now made (another) working chassis for a SE Finecast K3. This set of frames is a brilliant piece of design, by the late Alastair Rolfe. 

 

 

My brief is to build the whole thing for my chum in Scotland (for delivery at the end of February). He'll see to the painting. This is one I built for myself, and (cue moment of smugness), the whole painting is my own work as well. Not in the Rathbone/Haynes class, but all mine.

 

 

Bachmann's K3 was (still is) a bit of a disappointment with its (way) under-scale drivers and 'dodgy' performance. Still, the bodywork is excellent, so makes a good candidate for a new chassis. This one (the work of Tom Foster with my help), has a SE Finecast replacement set of frames, though the Bachmann motion is used. It's also got a SEF replacement cab.  

Edited December 6, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Lecorbusier]

All this wistful dreaming of ancient Edwardian spindle boilers is all very well, rather than grainy pics, how about some actual models? I'm sure you old gents must have constructed these lost cabless wonders. Didn't the NE and GN have better looking examples, not to mention those pretty little NBR jobs.

Currently knocking up some Edwardian Coal wagons .... but not sure that's exactly what you had in mind. Have a Johnson 1f & 1P currently in the pipeline, but still a fair way off - curse the day job!

[Tony Wright]

How can anyone not like a AM9?

 

100_4623a.jpg

 

I must get mine finished, all six driving cars for a full 10 car unit.

Interesting, Clive,

 

How many power units will that be? 

 

Remember that a Deltic (even though it has two engines) is still a single power unit. And, when they were first introduced they'd haul up to 13/14 bogies (15 on the Aberdonian) at up to (and beyond) 100 mph as the GN main line was improved. 

 

Just think what a Deltic's performance hauling only four cars would be! 

 

I'm very glad that the ECML was not electrified until the mid-/late-'80s. Otherwise, what you say might have happened!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Tony Wright

[grahame]

Really, Clive,

 

Did these Clacton units have 3,300 BHP? 

 

Were they also allowed to run at over 100 mph? One day, I'll publish my log of a run behind BALLYMOSS, written in the summer of 1976, when she took me over Stoke Summit (in the Down direction) at 105 mph!

 

I always found the Mk.2s very comfortable to ride in, though I never went in the units you show.

 

 

 

Class 430/432 4REP EMUs (four car sets) had 3,200hp - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_432 - add another, even a lower powered set, and you are well over 3,300.

 

A class 442 'Wessex Express' was clocked at 108mph and most modern third rail units are rated at 100mph.

 

 

G.

[Bucoops]

I'm no fan of EMUs (feathered or metallic), but the 309 was something special.

[Lecorbusier]

All

 

Is there a book available with all these beautiful designs in, I had a look at the Dempsey and Kinnear Clark book on Victorian locomotives but that covers the very first locos as well and although informative I would like to find something of a narrower time period when the Johnson Stirling Gooch and co locomotives were about.

 

Regards

 

Peter

Being a Midland man at present, I always rather liked.....

 

[APOLLO]

 

Just think what a Deltic's performance hauling only four cars would be! 

 

Tony. 

 

I seem to remember some trains on the Eastern / North Eastern region were advertised as High Speed in the time table and utilised a Deltic + eight coaches. Can anyone shed further light on this ?

 

Brit15

[Atso]

Someone asked for pictures of models............

 

My apologies for their not being Edwardian in splendour, but here goes....................

 

SE Finecast K3 01.jpg

 

As mentioned yesterday, I've now made (another) working chassis for a SE Finecast K3. This set of frames is a brilliant piece of design, by the late Alastair Rolfe. 

 

K3 03 SE Finecast 61825.jpg

 

My brief is to build the whole thing for my chum in Scotland (for delivery at the end of February). He'll see to the painting. This is one I built for myself, and (cue moment of smugness), the whole painting is my own work as well. Not in the Rathbone/Haynes class, but all mine.

 

Tom Foster K3.jpg

 

Bachmann's K3 was (still is) a bit of a disappointment with its (way) under-scale drivers and 'dodgy' performance. Still, the bodywork is excellent, so makes a good candidate for a new chassis. This one (the work of Tom Foster with my help), has a SE Finecast replacement set of frames, though the Bachmann motion is used. It's also got a SEF replacement cab.  

 

Interesting to see your K3 with NER style cab as, having recently been given another Farish N class locomotive (in exchange for some modelling work) by a friend, I'm in the process of starting one of these varients myself.

 

 

Another 3D print which, other than the removal of the supports, has had no other fettling done to it. This one will be LNER No. 91 in c. 1935 condition without buffer beam cutouts, right hand drive and will be paired with an ex GNR tender as I have a picture of the locomotive on a down express goods at Sandy (so must have passed through Hadley Wood).

 

To prove that I'm not completely reliant on 3D printing, below are some pictures of an N gauge signal box, soldered together from an etched kit and I'm building for our mutual friend, Roy.

 

 

 

In addition to the interior (another etch kit), I've add down pipes and have scratch built the outer walkway but haven't added these, or the gutters, yet (there is a roof too!).

[The Stationmaster]

Interesting, Clive,

 

How many power units will that be? 

 

Remember that a Deltic (even though it has two engines) is still a single power unit. And, when they were first introduced they'd haul up to 13/14 bogies (15 on the Aberdonian) at up to (and beyond) 100 mph as the GN main line was improved. 

 

Just think what a Deltic's performance hauling only four cars would be! 

 

I'm very glad that the ECML was not electrified until the mid-/late-'80s. Otherwise, what you say might have happened!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 A 'Deltic' hauling only 4 coaches would be so lacking in brake power that it would not even be permitted to start the journey, you needed a minimum of 5 (bogie) passenger vehicles to be allowed to run at all, even as ECS train.   So it would no doubt have accelerated like whatsit off a shovel, and very likely have exceeded the 100mph maximum permitted speed, but it would have been an extremely hairy affair trying to bring it to a stand by means of the brakes. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Interesting, Clive,

 

How many power units will that be? 

 

Remember that a Deltic (even though it has two engines) is still a single power unit. And, when they were first introduced they'd haul up to 13/14 bogies (15 on the Aberdonian) at up to (and beyond) 100 mph as the GN main line was improved. 

 

Just think what a Deltic's performance hauling only four cars would be! 

 

I'm very glad that the ECML was not electrified until the mid-/late-'80s. Otherwise, what you say might have happened!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hello Tony

 

A 10 (later 12) car train would have three power cars. Wonderful trains, sadly dismissed by most locomotive centric modellers.

 

 

10 car to start with because of the platform length at some stations. 

[jwealleans]

I think this is what is usually regarded as the NER (Darlington) cab, Steve.

 

 

The handrail above the windows is the giveaway. Tony's has the windows set higher, which Doncaster eventually did with all the ones originally so built.

[Headstock]

Someone asked for pictures of models............

 

My apologies for their not being Edwardian in splendour, but here goes....................

 

SE Finecast K3 01.jpg

 

As mentioned yesterday, I've now made (another) working chassis for a SE Finecast K3. This set of frames is a brilliant piece of design, by the late Alastair Rolfe. 

 

K3 03 SE Finecast 61825.jpg

 

My brief is to build the whole thing for my chum in Scotland (for delivery at the end of February). He'll see to the painting. This is one I built for myself, and (cue moment of smugness), the whole painting is my own work as well. Not in the Rathbone/Haynes class, but all mine.

 

Tom Foster K3.jpg

 

Bachmann's K3 was (still is) a bit of a disappointment with its (way) under-scale drivers and 'dodgy' performance. Still, the bodywork is excellent, so makes a good candidate for a new chassis. This one (the work of Tom Foster with my help), has a SE Finecast replacement set of frames, though the Bachmann motion is used. It's also got a SEF replacement cab.  

 

Afternoon Tony,

 

not Edwardian splendor but of interest to me, I've been looking for a good build of the SEF K3 for some time, just to reassure myself that it is a good kit. Of course it is but this particular kit seems to have been the target some chronically bad builds. We have one on Leicester, it looks very poor compared to yours. I have one started by my Father and supplied by yourself, unfortunately, it has never been a priority and some of the builds mentioned above have put me off delving into it.

 

K3s have and incredibly complicated history with regard to variations and I think they are a difficult locomotive to get looking right. I have no idea what locomotive my Fathers was intended to be, so a fair amount of research is required to work out which variant to chose. As a result, it keeps getting pushed to the back of the queue. Its nice to see the potential of this kit as expressed in your model, most builds of it inspire little interest, though I know the kit is actually a little cracker.

[Atso]

I think this is what is usually regarded as the NER (Darlington) cab, Steve.

 

 

The handrail above the windows is the giveaway. Tony's has the windows set higher, which Doncaster eventually did with all the ones originally so built.

 

Thank for the information Jonathan and lovely K3!

 

I was under the impression that, following the raising of the windows (and loss of the upper handrails), the NER style cab was still thought of as such due to the window style and difference in the radius rear upper corner of the cab compared to 'Doncaster' types.

[gr.king]

As I understand it there were three phases of Darlington / NER style cab on the early post-grouping K3s.

 

1.Original, with rounded tops to very low set side windows and handrail above those. Some K3s allocated to the NE area kept these cabs, unaltered, until the late thirties.

2.Initial attempt to modify the design to suit crews outside of the NE area who complained that the windows were too low, the windows being raised about 3" but still leaving just enough space for the rail above. I have not spotted many of these in photographs.

3.Further modification in response to continuing complaints with no rail above the windows allowing them to be raised another 3" or so.

 

The eventual group standard cab for new-built K3s was 5" longer, giving the crew no more room but enclosing more of the firebox, and had flat tops to the windows plus a sharper radius at the top rear corner of the side sheet. I don't know of any changes from the phase 3 modified Darlington cab to the group standard one, presumably because there was nothing to be gained by making such a change.

[Jol Wilkinson]

All this wistful dreaming of ancient Edwardian spindle boilers is all very well, rather than grainy pics, how about some actual models? I'm sure you old gents must have constructed these lost cabless wonders. Didn't the NE and GN have better looking examples, not to mention those pretty little NBR jobs.

Well, you did ask.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And if you really want one without a cab!

 

[Lecorbusier]

Lovely Jol .... something for me to aspire to.

[jamie92208]

You asked so here are three locos from Green Ayre, all built and painted by my late friend Tony Bond.

 

First 311 which was one of the last three of the class that were never nominally rebuilt to 483 class. Here at the head of a Wennington portion in the bay platform at Lancaster.

In the foreground is the back of a running in board that only the operators can see that says Marthwaite.

Then 638 a Spinner that normally hauls the Inspection saloon.   I picked the kit up cheaply on the club stall at Warley and Tony worked his magic.]

I noticed when I got it out of the box that two of the ender axleboxes have dropped off.   Glued, not soldered.   I'll have to get that attended to along with painting the wires that connect the tender pick ups in a less noticeable colour.

Then as a comparison No 14, a Kirtley 2-4-0 with outside cranks.   I love watching this in action.   However the first time I ran it through the platforms at green Ayre it ended up walking along the platform so we had to do a bit of adjustment.

 

Sorry for the poor photos but it's a bit murky here today.

 

Jamie

 

[Tony Wright]

Afternoon Tony,

 

not Edwardian splendor but of interest to me, I've been looking for a good build of the SEF K3 for some time, just to reassure myself that it is a good kit. Of course it is but this particular kit seems to have been the target some chronically bad builds. We have one on Leicester, it looks very poor compared to yours. I have one started by my Father and supplied by yourself, unfortunately, it has never been a priority and some of the builds mentioned above have put me off delving into it.

 

K3s have and incredibly complicated history with regard to variations and I think they are a difficult locomotive to get looking right. I have no idea what locomotive my Fathers was intended to be, so a fair amount of research is required to work out which variant to chose. As a result, it keeps getting pushed to the back of the queue. Its nice to see the potential of this kit as expressed in your model, most builds of it inspire little interest, though I know the kit is actually a little cracker.

Good afternoon Andrew,

 

Many thanks for your kind comments.

 

I, too, have seen some very dodgy K3s, some built from SE Finecast kits. They are quite complex, but reward care and attention to detail.

 

 

Here's mine again, on a typical LB duty.

 

 

Here's a real hybrid I made/painted/weathered. It's a Bachmann K3 body, modified to RH-drive, with a SE Finecast cab, on top of a SE Finecast set of frames (with modified Bachmann motion), towing a London Road GNR tender. 

 

 

I think this is a very fine model of a K3, built/painted by Alan Hammet using an Anchorage kit.

 

 

And a modified Bachmann K3, by Tony Geary. I added extra details, mainly in the form of wiggly pipes. This one performs the least-satisfactorily of all LB's K3s (there are more!), wobbling about in motion. Its gear is also in reverse. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.