Wright writes.....

[Focalplane]

This is a very interesting and informative topic.  As a result of receiving a small inheritance I bought an O Gauge locomotive and coach last year.  Without the inheritance I seriously doubt if I would have ever bought either but I was determined to use the funds on something that would last for ever, bring me joy and remind me of my long gone parents.

 

I could never take on a project like the Lee Marsh Jubilee - that is a professional model designed by people with far more knowledge than me and built by artisans with far more skill than I will ever have.  But it remains a yardstick for my own efforts at kit building.  The coach was purchased from Malcolm Binns, owner of Sidelines, and has his name on  (actually under) it.  I am currently working on another of Malcolm's kits, a period III Kitchen Car and it is coming together nicely.  It might even look the part in a blood and custard Midlander rake.  I certainly hope so.

 

So while I plan to continue to build kits, I now also see the benefits of buying a few pieces from the "top shelf".  In late 2017, to coincide with the 100 year anniversary of my father winning the Military Cross in the Great War, I will take delivery of another Lee Marsh loco, 46132, the King's (Liverpool) Regiment.  And when I go this locomotive will be donated to the Regiment's museum along with other memorabilia relating to my father's service.  In the meantime I hope it will rack up a few scale miles on friends' layouts.

[New Haven Neil]

Oh, look what I have started!

 

I don't think what you asked for the locos is excessive at all, Tony.  As I am on a limited income as semi retired and working part time they are out of my range of disposable income now, but a couple of years ago I would have had both quite happily for £650, and felt quite smug about it.  I did buy a couple of Shakey's coaches off Gilbert though!

 

My name is really Neil, yes.

[glo41f]

I think I have seen it all now. Five of the dreadful A2's! Nice models that reflect time effort and care by the builder but why? The Peppercorn and Gresley locos were so aesthetically superior that I cannot understand why anyone would want Mr Thompson aberrations on their layout. (When I was an operator on Barrie Walls line I would "hide" all the Thompson Pacifics in the back of the shed and use other locos on the various diagrams. I gather it took a while for the master to realise what I was doing and find the "missing" locos.

 

On the topic of value of models, I really feel that this is a minefield with many facets to the argument some of which have been well articulated here. For my part, I feel that there will be such a glut of models in all scales in the near future that we will be lucky to dispose of any for any great value. Just my view.

 

Martin Long

[Theakerr]

From a slightly different perspective I think I might have upset a member of the forum a while back when he was selling a handbuilt loco by asking what he expected for it.  His price was probably reasonable but it was outside my budget.  Thus I told him I could not afford it.  I was not looking for a reduction and I did not ask for one but my reply, I suspect, was taken that way.  Now it might be said that I was naive by even enquiring because I should have expected the asking price.  However, over the years I have lost a number of items that I would have liked (Lotus Europa that went on a mechanics lien for $1200) because I thought it was beyond my budget and didn't ask.  So now I ask.  

[Jon4470]

With regard to the value of kits and Ebay etc I have observed the following recently.

 

Jamieson V2 body kit sells for £18.50 on 5th April.

 

Tony Wright posts about how these kits are essentially accurate and interesting to build on 6th April. He then also describes a number of V2s that he has built from this source.

 

Another Jamieson V2 body kit sells today for £52.49!!

 

Is this the power of a recommendation from Tony? (Or was it just a few of us on this thread getting carried away - yes I did bid on this!)

 

Jon

[Richard_A]

it must be quite frustrating selling personal models via eBay but as other people have eluded to for the buyer it can be quite rewarding as I have just taken delivery of 4 comet conversions of triang coaches for £40 and they're quite well made.

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

A little help, please, from your knowledge of the A2/3's and their various "bits". I attach a (very poor quality) photo of ones I have built, and the question I have concerns the domes on the locos, both the second from the bottom (Steady Aim) and the second from the top (Straight Deal) have what I might refer to as "banjo" domes and I have the feeling that these are not correct for these locos and should be the steamlined dome as fitted to the others (except Watling Street at the bottom with a round dome) Is this correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

Chas (from "Alloa")

Chas,

 

Here goes. 

 

No Thompson Pacifics of any kind ever carried a banjo dome (despite what draughtsmen such as Roche or Beattie might have drawn). The only locos to carry a banjo dome were the last-built batch of A3s, and then only until their first boiler change. Yes, there was the pair of V4s which had a tall banjo dome, but they're not relevant here. 

 

When rebuilt, all the A2/2s had a streamlined dome, as did the A2/1s and GREAT NORTHERN. Latterly, 60505 had a Thompson 117 boiler with what should have been a round dome on the second ring, but it had a streamlined cover. All the A2/3s were built with Dia. 117 boilers, with a round dome on the second ring. Another point, and this is putting the boot in, only 500 and 511 (for a short time) had the boiler cladding divided into four sections (as with some of yours). All the rest had it divided into five sections, as did 60511 in early BR days and 60500 from 1962. Latterly, all the A2/3s received Peppercorn Dia. 118 boilers, with a streamlined dome set further back. The Thompson and Peppercorn A2/3, A2 and A1 boilers were all interchangeable, thus some Peppercorn A2s and A1s received Thompson boilers. In the case of the A2s, these carried a round dome on the second ring. A1s which got Thompson boilers had a round dome on the second ring, but a streamlined cover was fitted. The only exception to this was 60153, which had a complete round dome for a time. All the V2s carried streamlined domes. 

 

What are the origins of the models, please? The banjo dome ones aren't DJH (they got this right), so are they Millholme, or have you fitted such domes from elsewhere? If the former, avoid at all costs (even if you're given them). The Millholme A2/2 and A2/3 kits were among the worst ever produced. Wills A2s and A3s also had a banjo dome provided. Even the picture on the A3 box, showing FLYING SCOTSMAN, had one, which it never carried. 

 

Sorry to be the bearer of such news. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony, Unlike Bern etc I have to go to work still and unfortunately can't make it. I was down for tomorrow with Alan C and Richard Harper but just too much to do and Saturday is a GNRS meeting.

 

When I purchase items from somewhere like Ebay I've no idea who's built the kit or how it runs so can't take the risk on paying more than if I brought the parts to build it (badly) myself, hence why I never pay more than the constituent parts.

If the builder is known and it looks a good price, I know when I listen to others that it is hard to find large amounts of disposable income (over £100 for example) and there aren't many that will admit they can't afford something. Personaly I wouldn't buy anothers work at full value simply for the reason I enjoy building it myself and would miss out on those burnt fingers and swearing. In the case of these locomotives you've also to find someone who wants a Thomson Pacific. . . rare as hens teeth    They look to be very good models but trying to find the one buyer who is willing to pay for them can be quite a task.  When I sold the P4 estate I was really surprised what some items sold for and other items that I thought had value, didn't really fetch anything and took 12 months to do so.

 

 

I do compare most things to work, when I build a house I have an idea of what it might fetch on the market, but until it's finished and purchasers walk around it and make an offer, only at that point do I know its true value and that is only for that point in time. One of the last builds was a bungalow, we had 15 viewings of people wanting a 2 bed bungalow in that specific location (Little Paxton) and of those, 3 made offers all within £5000 of each other,  So out of the potential market there were only 20% interested in buying and they all put a value which was 8% under guide price. A chap that used to work for me used to say I ought to feel insulted that they offered less than I was asking but I replied it was the money in the bank that was important. (he went self employed and now has the same attitude)

Sorry you can't make it, Dave. Perhaps another time? You're always most welcome. 

 

Since I have no idea how ebay operates, I cannot really comment, but I'd be very wary of buying something just off a picture.

 

With regard to the locos I've made on commission, it'll always be the case that an ordered loco will have a higher price than if it's latterly sold-on. I always made sure that my customers were entirely happy with the looks and performance of the loco before any money was handed over. I always signed my work (not as deftly as Larry Goddard) and Ian Rathbone always added his signature or brass disc underneath. They were not cheap! Interestingly, the most popular locos I built were DJH Peppercorn A1s. The second most popular were Thompson Pacifics! 

 

All the locos I've found new homes for of late, I've checked and ensured that they run well. Though I cannot guarantee them for (my) life (as my own work is), nobody has been asked to pay money unless they're entirely satisfied. In many cases, the buyers have come to my home and run them on LB, or have seen them running at shows. Though none was built 'professionally', I've sold them as being examined and fixed if necessary by a professional model maker. Though I heartily dislike working on models others have made, for good causes it must be done. For instance, recently five locos which didn't work for a variety of reasons were going to be sold for no more than ten pounds each. A day's work - new motors, a tweak here and there, and I handed over well in excess of £200.00. It would have been nearer £300.00 were I prepared to pay for the motors/gearboxes/wheels myself, but I'm not that altruistic - far from it. I gave my time. Might that be an incentive for others to do the same? Where I do draw the line (or have done now) is working on locos built by some other professionals. In some cases, though they looked beautiful, the running was very poor - noisy, jerky, shorting out and no tractive power (ask Gilbert Barnatt).

 

I agree entirely that it's much better to make things for oneself.  

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tony Wright

[lee74clarke]

God causes indeed Tony, especially if it's some old Stodger I've purchased that needs your devine intervention

[lee74clarke]

Well, that was lost, edited before I could press 'Post'!

[Horsetan]

With regard to the value of kits and Ebay etc I have observed the following recently.

Jamieson V2 body kit sells for £18.50 on 5th April.

Tony Wright posts about how these kits are essentially accurate and interesting to build on 6th April. He then also describes a number of V2s that he has built from this source.

Another Jamieson V2 body kit sells today for £52.49!!

Is this the power of a recommendation from Tony? (Or was it just a few of us on this thread getting carried away - yes I did bid on this!)

 

Much the same thing used to happen after Quentin Willson had extolled the virtues of a particular secondhand car on the old Top Gear. In the weeks after he reviewed the Alfa 164 and the Vauxhall Senator 3.0 24v, you couldn't find one for love nor money.

[46256]

Dear all just read focalpanes post and felt...well the need to record.an event of some years ago...more than I care to remember.....rented a flat with another officer..then as.now my best friend...since sadly left us......well one night he spoke of his grandfather.... My friend retired to his room only to return to our communal living room...with his grandfathers military medal and highland regiment broadsword... The medal won in the Great War. ...believe me holding that piece of metal was more.....profound than any creation of mine, before or since.I mention this in response to focal panes post earlier..thank you for this ...on a more topical note..for variorus reasons have over the years disposed of collections of my models...never realised the values I placed on them...a lot of my e m gauge stud when reverting back to OO....a lot had portescap motors...in hindsight should have sold the motors separately to achieve best price...but the thought of cannibalised models then as now does not appeal. In conclusion always enjoy the diversity of views on this thread, albeit as a midlander always feel as if ...well a bit of an interloper...and to be more controversial love thompson pacifics. just like me big and ungainly...

[46256]

Just a slight addendum to my post...it was the military cross..awarded to officers..the medal to other ranks ...please correct me if wrong...my best friends grandfather was an officer in his regiment one of the few to survive the conflict....

[Focalplane]

Just a slight addendum to my post...it was the military cross..awarded to officers..the medal to other ranks ...please correct me if wrong...my best friends grandfather was an officer in his regiment one of the few to survive the conflict....

Yes, officers won the Cross, other ranks won the Medal. The word "won" might sound strange but that is the correct word used, not "awarded".

 

I am currently working on a web site about my father's life. If anyone is interested, please PM me and I will send the link when it is uploaded.

 

Although fiction, the recent BBC series Peaky Blinders has as part of the story line the gang leader having won the Military Medal as a tunneler during the Great War. He rose to the rank of Seargeant Major, but subsequently threw his medals "in the cut". The scenes of post war stress syndrome were as real then as they can be today. This has nothing to do with trains, but was brought about by the naming of 46132, so ever so slightly on topic.

 

Paul

[chris p bacon]

Sorry you can't make it, Dave. Perhaps another time? You're always most welcome. 

 

Since I have no idea how ebay operates, I cannot really comment, but I'd be very wary of buying something just off a picture.

 

With regard to the locos I've made on commission, it'll always be the case that an ordered loco will have a higher price than if it's latterly sold-on. I always made sure that my customers were entirely happy with the looks and performance of the loco before any money was handed over. I always signed my work (not as deftly as Larry Goddard) and Ian Rathbone always added his signature or brass disc underneath. They were not cheap! Interestingly, the most popular locos I built were DJH Peppercorn A1s. The second most popular were Thompson Pacifics! 

 

All the locos I've found new homes for of late, I've checked and ensured that they run well. Though I cannot guarantee them for (my) life (as my own work is), nobody has been asked to pay money unless they're entirely satisfied. In many cases, the buyers have come to my home and run them on LB, or have seen them running at shows. Though none was built 'professionally', I've sold them as being examined and fixed if necessary by a professional model maker. Though I heartily dislike working on models others have made, for good causes it must be done. For instance, recently five locos which didn't work for a variety of reasons were going to be sold for no more than ten pounds each. A day's work - new motors, a tweak here and there, and I handed over well in excess of £200.00. It would have been nearer £300.00 were I prepared to pay for the motors/gearboxes/wheels myself, but I'm not that altruistic - far from it. I gave my time. Might that be an incentive for others to do the same? Where I do draw the line (or have done now) is working on locos built by some other professionals. In some cases, though they looked beautiful, the running was very poor - noisy, jerky, shorting out and no tractive power (ask Gilbert Barnatt).

 

I agree entirely that it's much better to make things for oneself.  

Many thanks for the offer Tony, I shall certainly bank that for the future, I get periods of time between projects where "me" time is easier to find and I'm more than happy to tag along with any other visitors you have.

 

Ebay - it can work very well but occasionally you wonder that the seller rides a horse and wears a Stetson, there are some good purchases to be made and I used it as well as Buy & Sell for the estate without any problems and raised a significant sum of money for the Widow, but all it is, is a description and a few photographs and a lot of trust.

 

My analogy of the bungalow actually works for the commisioned build too. If I have a parcel of land that I put permission on and build a property to my own (architects) design it will sell for what the market decides, when the purchaser takes ownership  apart from the structure which is guaranteed by warranty, it becomes theirs with no expectation of "snagging" by us.

If though someone comes to us to have their own design of building on that land then a contract is agreed for specification,quality, timescale and price beforehand and a contract is drawn up. When completed and the purchaser takes ownership there is an extended period of time where any faults or niggles are dealt with by us until they are fully satisfied that the contract has been met. For this they pay a premium which may not bear any relation to the market price of the property.

I also get the trades to sign their work somewhere as they are always proud of their work,  although it's usually hidden in the roof or behind plasterboard.

 

The price of the locos is probably very reasonable but for me the next project is either an N2 chassis (RTR body) as I now have all the wheels,motor etc, or a GNR G1 which I've played a very small part in prepping for 3D printing (JCL, M Trice & A Sibley are the ones who deserves the credit)

[ScRSG]

I think I have seen it all now. Five of the dreadful A2's! Nice models that reflect time effort and care by the builder but why? The Peppercorn and Gresley locos were so aesthetically superior that I cannot understand why anyone would want Mr Thompson aberrations on their layout. (When I was an operator on Barrie Walls line I would "hide" all the Thompson Pacifics in the back of the shed and use other locos on the various diagrams. I gather it took a while for the master to realise what I was doing and find the "missing" locos.

 

Martin Long

 

Yes, well, the dear old ScR did replace their beautiful Duchesses with some of these (!) so unfortunately, if they did exist then you have to grin and bare it, and build the damn things! (Polmadie did get some of Mr P's A2's as well!)

[ScRSG]

Chas,

 

Here goes. 

 

No Thompson Pacifics of any kind ever carried a banjo dome (despite what draughtsmen such as Roche or Beattie might have drawn). The only locos to carry a banjo dome were the last-built batch of A3s, and then only until their first boiler change. Yes, there was the pair of V4s which had a tall banjo dome, but they're not relevant here. 

 

When rebuilt, all the A2/2s had a streamlined dome, as did the A2/1s and GREAT NORTHERN. Latterly, 60505 had a Thompson 117 boiler with what should have been a round dome on the second ring, but it had a streamlined cover. All the A2/3s were built with Dia. 117 boilers, with a round dome on the second ring. Another point, and this is putting the boot in, only 500 and 511 (for a short time) had the boiler cladding divided into four sections (as with some of yours). All the rest had it divided into five sections, as did 60511 in early BR days and 60500 from 1962. Latterly, all the A2/3s received Peppercorn Dia. 118 boilers, with a streamlined dome set further back. The Thompson and Peppercorn A2/3, A2 and A1 boilers were all interchangeable, thus some Peppercorn A2s and A1s received Thompson boilers. In the case of the A2s, these carried a round dome on the second ring. A1s which got Thompson boilers had a round dome on the second ring, but a streamlined cover was fitted. The only exception to this was 60153, which had a complete round dome for a time. All the V2s carried streamlined domes. 

 

What are the origins of the models, please? The banjo dome ones aren't DJH (they got this right), so are they Millholme, or have you fitted such domes from elsewhere? If the former, avoid at all costs (even if you're given them). The Millholme A2/2 and A2/3 kits were among the worst ever produced. Wills A2s and A3s also had a banjo dome provided. Even the picture on the A3 box, showing FLYING SCOTSMAN, had one, which it never carried. 

 

Sorry to be the bearer of such news. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Well, I knew I shouldn't have asked! Fortunately, (?) none of the locos are from Millholme, , Honeyway, the top one in the photo is DJH as is Watling Street, the rest are all Crownline/PDK. I will at least change the domes on the two to streamlined versions, they were probably alternate castings in the kits anyway. Does the lining follow the boiler cladding lines, if so, could I cheat a bit and divide the cladding into five sections using the lining, I seem to remember (but haven't checked) that the resin cast boilers didn't have moulded boiler bands, so they could be changed to suit - was thinking that I might do a strip and repaint on some of these anyway!

 

Chas

[grob1234]

Dear Tony,

 

I hope you're keeping well?

 

I thought you might be interested to see my progress with the SE Finecast C12 I'm building.

 

Nearly all done now body wise, just the whistle, ross pops, and guard irons to fit. The chassis needs a minor tweak; the front bogie needs moving forward about 3mm. I've added a torque arm to the gearbox, as well as a flywheel to give it a bit of 'go' over any dead points in the track.

 

The J69 is still in the paint shop. Tomorrow, I'll fit the buffers, apply the decals and begin detail painting. Its fighting me though, the little devil won't sit quite level on its chassis, so I will need to wait until I'm in a patient mood to fit some thin plasticard spacers to try and even it out. Only talking a mil or so, but still, needs to look right. 

 

I'll put some more info on my builds in my own thread, but here are a few pictures of the current state of play:

 

^^^^ Front bogie not on track... always see these things post shot!

 

 

^^^ And again, just noticed the front securing screw shows below the boiler. I'll have to space it out from underneath.

[jwealleans]

Lovely job.

 

Did Tony mention that his pulled a 50 wagon coal train on Grantham? There's a challenge for you when it's complete.

[chris p bacon]

I'll accept your SE finecast and raise the stake with a Craftsmen C12** which is just on the finishing straight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

** I did post this a day or so ago on my thread so apologies if you've seen before.

 

 

[grob1234]

Lovely job.

 

Did Tony mention that his pulled a 50 wagon coal train on Grantham? There's a challenge for you when it's complete.

 

I can well believe it, certainly weighs enough.

 

I've got 8 Hornby Pullmans on top of the wardrobe, so when its done, I'll try it with those, it should do OK I think.

 

 

EDIT: Just seen your C12, Dave.I presume it'll appear in BR (E) paint scheme? Smart looking little engines aren't they? Did you get the DCC chip fitted OK with the all insulated wheels? Just noticed, your front lamp irons are at an alarming angle  

Edited April 14, 2016 by grob1234

[Tony Wright]

Dear Tony,

 

I hope you're keeping well?

 

I thought you might be interested to see my progress with the SE Finecast C12 I'm building.

 

Nearly all done now body wise, just the whistle, ross pops, and guard irons to fit. The chassis needs a minor tweak; the front bogie needs moving forward about 3mm. I've added a torque arm to the gearbox, as well as a flywheel to give it a bit of 'go' over any dead points in the track.

 

The J69 is still in the paint shop. Tomorrow, I'll fit the buffers, apply the decals and begin detail painting. Its fighting me though, the little devil won't sit quite level on its chassis, so I will need to wait until I'm in a patient mood to fit some thin plasticard spacers to try and even it out. Only talking a mil or so, but still, needs to look right. 

 

I'll put some more info on my builds in my own thread, but here are a few pictures of the current state of play:

 

^^^^ Front bogie not on track... always see these things post shot!

 

 

^^^ And again, just noticed the front securing screw shows below the boiler. I'll have to space it out from underneath.

Very nice Tom - my compliments. 

 

However (there's always 'however' or 'but'), C12s were GNR locos and, as such, should have ten-spoked bogie/pony wheels. You've fitted NER types, with 12 spokes. Markits does the correct 14mm sort, as does Alan Gibson. 

[Tony Wright]

Well, I knew I shouldn't have asked! Fortunately, (?) none of the locos are from Millholme, , Honeyway, the top one in the photo is DJH as is Watling Street, the rest are all Crownline/PDK. I will at least change the domes on the two to streamlined versions, they were probably alternate castings in the kits anyway. Does the lining follow the boiler cladding lines, if so, could I cheat a bit and divide the cladding into five sections using the lining, I seem to remember (but haven't checked) that the resin cast boilers didn't have moulded boiler bands, so they could be changed to suit - was thinking that I might do a strip and repaint on some of these anyway!

 

Chas

Chas,

 

As for the lining on the bands, yes it was applied to them, but I don't think it's a case of just adding another band. You'll have to replace them, other than the first one (on the smokebox/boiler joint) and the last one (on the boiler firebox joint). Don't, of course, line the firebox band. This latter point usually causes much in the way of mistakes with regard to the lining on the firebox cladding band when the locos were in BR green. When Darlington took over the maintenance of the V2s, the firebox band was lined. Doncaster never did this, but when the Plant ceased to repair steam locos, the odd ER/NER/ScR green locos were given lining on the firebox, especially towards the end. Examples include 60019, 60024 and 60034, 60052 (possibly) and 60532.This was as a result of local depot painting. 

[ScRSG]

Chas,

 

As for the lining on the bands, yes it was applied to them, but I don't think it's a case of just adding another band. You'll have to replace them, other than the first one (on the smokebox/boiler joint) and the last one (on the boiler firebox joint). Don't, of course, line the firebox band. This latter point usually causes much in the way of mistakes with regard to the lining on the firebox cladding band when the locos were in BR green. When Darlington took over the maintenance of the V2s, the firebox band was lined. Doncaster never did this, but when the Plant ceased to repair steam locos, the odd ER/NER/ScR green locos were given lining on the firebox, especially towards the end. Examples include 60019, 60024 and 60034, 60052 (possibly) and 60532.This was as a result of local depot painting. 

Photos to be studied!

[Tony Wright]

Just a general 'thank you' to the members of the East Beds MRC who visited LB today (and last Monday). The next group arrives on Saturday. 

 

Above all else, visits by friends (old ones and those who immediately become mates) is the best part of the hobby to me. I accept one can build a personal layout which nobody else ever sees, and it can be most satisfying to an individual. However, the greatest fun is to have a bunch of mates round, run trains, discuss the merits of this or that, have a great pub lunch and then return to run some more. The group today didn't bring any of their models (a shame because they're always most interesting), largely because they were DCC. It doesn't matter. LB plays host to umpteen DCC-fitted locos. 

 

Any problems? Only me as an operator. If a switch isn't set properly or a road not properly selected (because of my incompetence) then things don't happen as they should. Me apart, and it's a testament to the guys who built Little Bytham, everything on the railway worked - exactly as it should. 

 

Chaps, thanks again!