Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

If £350 is "way too expensive" for the buyer hoping to get a used hand-built Pacific then the buyer is either naïve or is simply "trying it on". As we know, if he really wanted such a loco to the extent of being prepared to commission one he might easily have to pay three times that sum (or more) for a proper job.

 

Why should buyers expect to get used handbuilt locos at knockdown prices when they are the ultimate in limited edition models, at a time when the less sensible swarm like sharks and drive prices up to daft levels if a discontinued mass produced model pops up on eBay?

[Focalplane]

If £350 is "way too expensive" for the buyer hoping to get a used hand-built Pacific then the buyer is either naïve or is simply "trying it on". As we know, if he really wanted such a loco to the extent of being prepared to commission one he might easily have to pay three times that sum (or more) for a proper job.

 

Why should buyers expect to get used handbuilt locos at knockdown prices when they are the ultimate in limited edition models, at a time when the less sensible swarm like sharks and drive prices up to daft levels if a discontinued mass produced model pops up on eBay?

 

While I absolutely agree with you, I can't help but think that the would be buyer is probably concerned about the quality of the offering simply because it is a one off.  This despite the excellent provenance of the model, its owner, its maker and its purveyor.  Could it be that buying a unique masterpiece is outside the comfort zone of those who are happy to buy and then complain about the finish of an RTR product from China?  Just look at the many, long and tedious threads about RTR models on RMWeb.

 

I think the "nanny state" mentality has something to do with this attitude.

[chris p bacon]

If £350 is "way too expensive" for the buyer hoping to get a used hand-built Pacific then the buyer is either naïve or is simply "trying it on". 

 

Why should buyers expect to get used handbuilt locos at knockdown prices when they are the ultimate in limited edition models, at a time when the less sensible swarm like sharks and drive prices up to daft levels if a discontinued mass produced model pops up on eBay?

I don't think its anything like buyers "trying it on" but more that there are few who will have the disposable income to handover £350 for a single item.  As much as I'm happy to spend on my hobby I wouldn't pay that much for a single model, I'll buy kitbuilt but only for the cost of their constituent parts.

[Tony Wright]

If £350 is "way too expensive" for the buyer hoping to get a used hand-built Pacific then the buyer is either naïve or is simply "trying it on". As we know, if he really wanted such a loco to the extent of being prepared to commission one he might easily have to pay three times that sum (or more) for a proper job.

 

Why should buyers expect to get used handbuilt locos at knockdown prices when they are the ultimate in limited edition models, at a time when the less sensible swarm like sharks and drive prices up to daft levels if a discontinued mass produced model pops up on eBay?

Since I don't know the enquirer personally, it would be unfair of me to suggest he's either naive or 'trying it on'. A friend got in touch saying that his friend was interested in acquiring OO Gauge models of Thompson Pacifics. Since the only way to get one is either to scratch-build, build kits (DJH/PDK), do one of your incredible Bachmann modifications or pay someone to do one of the three options for you, then, I admit, I'm puzzled as to what he might have expected to pay. I know if I scratch-built a 4mm Thompson Pacific (I have done, though there is no need now), with a Rathbone paint job I'd be asking in excess of £2,500. A kit-built one would be around half that (mates' rates about a thousand). What price one of your conversions? A donor loco about £150.00, new? Since I don't know what you charge for your bits and pieces, might I assume another £30.00-£40.00 (which includes those beautiful etches, of course? Say close to £200.00 all in by the time paint, transfers and plates have been included? Perhaps that chap is a bit naive in his idea of what a Thommo Pacific might cost, even going down your 'cheaper' (though not cheap) route.

 

 

 

What price something like this then? It came from John Houlden's 'junk box, as a 2-5-0 (he has no idea what he did with the missing driver!) He was effectively chucking it away, especially as it had no tender, ran very poorly (it would, wouldn't it!?) and he doesn't have the time to fix it. Since I cannot resist a challenge; strip the chassis down, remove the noisy, stiff DS10, find a new driver, install a Mashima/gear mount and rebuild the valve gear. She now runs really sweetly. What about a tender? Remember that sad little D2 of a few weeks' back? Strip the tender of that down, part-rebuild and there you go. I'll paint it later today. What about the D2? A gift to you my friend, when you visit next. I'm sure the builder, if he's looking down, won't mind. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

I don't think its anything like buyers "trying it on" but more that there are few who will have the disposable income to handover £350 for a single item.  As much as I'm happy to spend on my hobby I wouldn't pay that much for a single model, I'll buy kitbuilt but only for the cost of their constituent parts.

Dave,

 

Are you coming tomorrow or Saturday to visit? We'll have a most interesting discussion!

 

I accept your personal point, but are you saying that you 'expect' to get a (decent?) kit-built loco for just the price of the bits. Isn't that like saying the builder has been 'privileged' to build it for you; for nowt!?  

[Chimer]

With tongue firmly in cheek  ....... if the builder has gained the personal satisfaction available from his latest creation, why wouldn't he now simply be happy to recoup his outlay in order to provide the funds for his next enjoyable build?

 

Cheers, Chris

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Tony,

May I offer a possible explanation?

In my humble opinion, a lot of railway modellers want something for nothing and few are prepared to pay a "fair price" for many items.

I have been disposing of my US 0 scale collection on eBay, over the past couple of years and so many people try it on, it makes one despair!

I've resorted to posting items fully insured and registered as otherwise folk will claim they never received the item and the starting bid has to be the minimum I am prepared to accept, so as long as I get one bid, I am (reasonably) happy.

It seems the days of honest buyers are numbered.

At least, through contact on here, folk should be pretty honest?

May I also say that it is a most generous thing you are doing, disposing of items is something I find quite hard work!

All the best,

John

[gr.king]

All interesting points in reply to my previous remarks, and no doubt valid in certain cases.

 

As a contrast to the reasonable explanations for low offers on handbuilt models, I've seen plenty of examples of dealers posing as private buyers, and of private "chancers" trying to pick up a model at a knockdown price simply so that they can make a fat profit for little effort on a re-sale. Given the existence of such people, if and when the grim time comes I would strongly encourage my heirs or executors, if selling any of my handbuilt models, to stick firmly to a reserve price that reflects the full "parts plus time" cost of construction, less any subsequent wear and tear, and to make it clear in any offer of sale that if the item is not sold at a suitable price it has an appointment with the hammer and the dustbin rather than there being any prospect of major price reduction....

Edited April 13, 2016 by gr.king

[chris p bacon]

Dave,

 

Are you coming tomorrow or Saturday to visit? We'll have a most interesting discussion!

 

I accept your personal point, but are you saying that you 'expect' to get a (decent?) kit-built loco for just the price of the bits. Isn't that like saying the builder has been 'privileged' to build it for you; for nowt!?  

Hi Tony, Unlike Bern etc I have to go to work still and unfortunately can't make it. I was down for tomorrow with Alan C and Richard Harper but just too much to do and Saturday is a GNRS meeting.

 

When I purchase items from somewhere like Ebay I've no idea who's built the kit or how it runs so can't take the risk on paying more than if I brought the parts to build it (badly) myself, hence why I never pay more than the constituent parts.

If the builder is known and it looks a good price, I know when I listen to others that it is hard to find large amounts of disposable income (over £100 for example) and there aren't many that will admit they can't afford something. Personaly I wouldn't buy anothers work at full value simply for the reason I enjoy building it myself and would miss out on those burnt fingers and swearing. In the case of these locomotives you've also to find someone who wants a Thomson Pacific. . . rare as hens teeth    They look to be very good models but trying to find the one buyer who is willing to pay for them can be quite a task.  When I sold the P4 estate I was really surprised what some items sold for and other items that I thought had value, didn't really fetch anything and took 12 months to do so.

 

 

I do compare most things to work, when I build a house I have an idea of what it might fetch on the market, but until it's finished and purchasers walk around it and make an offer, only at that point do I know its true value and that is only for that point in time. One of the last builds was a bungalow, we had 15 viewings of people wanting a 2 bed bungalow in that specific location (Little Paxton) and of those, 3 made offers all within £5000 of each other,  So out of the potential market there were only 20% interested in buying and they all put a value which was 8% under guide price. A chap that used to work for me used to say I ought to feel insulted that they offered less than I was asking but I replied it was the money in the bank that was important. (he went self employed and now has the same attitude)

[Barry Ten]

Perceptions of the value of work are very interesting. A friend of mine has just been shafted on an artistic commission. She was asked to paint a picture from a photograph which had some significance to the client. She did two preparatory paintings, than a final one, about A3 in size. When she contacted the client to say the work was ready, she was told he couldn't afford more than 50 pounds. That wouldn't cover the number of hours she put in at minimum wage on just the final painting, never mind taking into account materials. We'd suggested to her that 150 - 200 was the sort of lower limit she should consider, and it wouldn't have been too cheeky for her to ask for 200 - 250. She's not a professional artist but she worked to a good standard and we know the sort of value paintings can fetch in amateur art exhibitions in the area. The client had already seen a painting by her so knew the sort of work to expect. I suppose the mistake was going into the arrangement without a tacit understanding that both parties were on roughly the same page as to the value of the work - clearly they weren't.

[96701]

All interesting points in reply to my previous remarks, and no doubt valid in certain cases.

 

As a contrast to the reasonable explanations for low offers on handbuilt models, I've seen plenty of examples of dealers posing as private buyers, and of private "chancers" trying to pick up a model at a knockdown price simply so that they can make a fat profit for little effort on a re-sale. Given the existence of such people, if and when the grim time comes I would strongly encourage my heirs or executors, if selling any of my handbuilt models, to stick firmly to a reserve price that reflects the full "parts plus time" cost of construction, less any subsequent wear and tear, and to make it clear in any offer of sale that if the item is not sold at a suitable price it has an appointment with the hammer and the dustbin rather than there being any prospect of major price reduction....

One of the things that Geoff did to help (without forethought) is that he had a database of his locos detailing body, chassis, motor and gearbox as well as purchase price and an approximation of running quality and power. If you want to keep it simple for executors, I urge you to do something similar.

[chris p bacon]

As a contrast to the reasonable explanations for low offers on handbuilt models, I've seen plenty of examples of dealers posing as private buyers, and of private "chancers" trying to pick up a model at a knockdown price simply so that they can make a fat profit for little effort on a re-sale. Given the existence of such people, if and when the grim time comes I would strongly encourage my heirs or executors, if selling any of my handbuilt models, to stick firmly to a reserve price that reflects the full "parts plus time" cost of construction, less any subsequent wear and tear, and to make it clear in any offer of sale that if the item is not sold at a suitable price it has an appointment with the hammer and the dustbin rather than there being any prospect of major price reduction....

Selling an estate last year I came into contact with quite a few, I either didn't respond or worked out a price with the widow that she was happy to accept and pushed them to it, If they took it her attitude was that she was happy with the cash in bank if they wanted to risk their money getting more for it.

 

I must admit that I don't quite get why you would want to destroy your work because it might not fetch the amount that you perceive to be its worth, that's akin to me knocking a house down because people offer me less than I want for it.

[The Stationmaster]

The question of secondhand prices - for that is what we are talking about other than for commissioned builds - is a complex area.  I used to spend a lot of time in auction rooms which I think are in many respects a truer indication of part of the market than anywhere else especially when dealers are involved.  Dealers do make part of the market as far as prices are concerned and their interest in hand or kit built models in 4mm scale was very clearly influenced by what they thought they could profitably shift not just at a profit but also in some cases quickly.  Thus anything associated with a known 'name' of a builder or painter was invariably more popular and commanded a higher price than something equally apparently well built or as skilfully painted from a 'nobody' (if you'll excuse that term).

 

Original company/BR Region also very clearly played a part and no doubt changes as time, and fads/fashions, go by.  Thus a couple of years ago it was difficult to giveaway, let alone sell at a sensible price, any small LNER locos of any sort;

0-6-0s tender & tank were simply lumped together in job lots and went for prices which made the Romford wheels some of the cheapest you could buy - were you so inclined.  I bought a 'box lot' containing a part built B1 kit and a simlar one for a  V2 because I was after the part built Dean Goods (of K's origin but 'improved') lurking in the bottom of the box - I sold on the B1 and V2 on RMweb at prices which made sure I'd got the total lot, including various other bits and pieces, for nothing by recovering the £80 I had spent on the lot.  The message is that the LNER locos were not attracting buyers, notwithstanding a Portescap motor in the well finished chassis of one.

 

So I think what I'm trying to say is that 'sellability' and price is influenced by various factors.  

First there, is quite literally, 'fashion' - is the Company popular/widely modelled - it really can make a difference.  

Second is provenance - more important perhaps to dealers than others but whichever it still makes a real difference.  

Third - by quite a long way unbelievably (to me), is condition and finish - at auction you can't test it to see if it works, you can't do that on Ebay - the only way you'll find out is by buying from a 'trusted name', otherwise you are taking a chance.  

Fourth, but importantly, are some of the points Dave (ChrisPBacon) made - that is availability of finance and perceived value.  Perceived by the buyer that is, and this is near impossible to judge until you actually offer something for sale (as with Dave's bungalow example).  

The old saying is that the market will find the right price, but in my view that only works if you have first found the right market.  That means advertising in the right way in the right place - if you can find it.

Finally is that little hangover from the way much of our country seems to work nowadays where people want something for nothing and are often unwilling to pay a bit more for time & skill that has been input because they simply don't understand it or distrust it.

Edited April 13, 2016 by The Stationmaster

[gr.king]

 

 

I must admit that I don't quite get why you would want to destroy your work because it might not fetch the amount that you perceive to be its worth, that's akin to me knocking a house down because people offer me less than I want for it.

 

Artistic temperament? Point of principle? Protecting those with less knowledge than myself from being fleeced by sharp buyers after my passing? Refusal to let a model be enjoyed by those who won't or can't match the builder's "stake" in the item.

[chris p bacon]

Artistic temperament? Point of principle? Protecting those with less knowledge than myself from being fleeced by sharp buyers after my passing? Refusal to let a model be enjoyed by those who won't or can't match the builder's "stake" in the item.

Fair enough, I'm of the view that when I'm gone.....I'm gone,  and whoever's left can do what they want with it all........so long as they don't sell it to buy Great Western....

[Horsetan]

....a lot of railway modellers want something for nothing....

 

I'd say "most" rather than "a lot of".

 

It's the truth, so why not admit it?

 

....Given the existence of such people, if and when the grim time comes I would strongly encourage my heirs or executors, if selling any of my handbuilt models, to stick firmly to a reserve price that reflects the full "parts plus time" cost of construction, less any subsequent wear and tear, and to make it clear in any offer of sale that if the item is not sold at a suitable price it has an appointment with the hammer and the dustbin rather than there being any prospect of major price reduction....

 

I'd save my Executors the trouble of having to do that, as I'd be arranging to have all the top-notch models and kits buried in the same grave as me.

 

It would take a special type of modeller to desecrate a grave to get owt fer nowt.

[chris p bacon]

I'd save my Executors the trouble of having to do that, as I'd be arranging to have all the top-notch models and kits buried in the same grave as me.

 

It would take a special type of modeller to desecrate a grave to get owt fer nowt.

Some of us have a Kubota 1.5T digger...

[ScRSG]

Tony,

 

A little help, please, from your knowledge of the A2/3's and their various "bits". I attach a (very poor quality) photo of ones I have built, and the question I have concerns the domes on the locos, both the second from the bottom (Steady Aim) and the second from the top (Straight Deal) have what I might refer to as "banjo" domes and I have the feeling that these are not correct for these locos and should be the steamlined dome as fitted to the others (except Watling Street at the bottom with a round dome) Is this correct please?

 

Thanks,

 

Chas (from "Alloa")

[Michael Edge]

Thanks Neil (I assume it's Neil?),

 

Though this thread should not be a 'selling medium' in itself, it's been very useful in finding new homes for model railway stuff I've resurrected for widows. Anyway, I'm sure if the moderators thought it inappropriate, they'd been in touch immediately. It's also been useful (if nothing else than in letting folk know) in finding new homes for John Houlden's stock. 

 

I am definitely not a salesman, just someone trying to help out where he can. Gilbert Barnatt did the same in dealing with Dave Shakespeare's collection (I did the fixing where necessary). As I've said, any decent human beings would do the same if they could. 

 

As for the two locos in question, I wonder what they are really 'worth'. Someone was interested and I asked £350.00 each or £650.00 for the pair. They were way too expensive! Considering these are made/modified from DJH kits, are both shod all round with Markits wheels and both have Portescaps in them, I thought that was very reasonable. The bits alone must come close to £400.00 (maybe more!), so what is being asked is effectively £150.00 to build, paint and weather each one. 

 

There is a parallel thread on the value of models, so how do locos like the pair illustrated compete with, say, a fully-finished Bachmann A2 for around just over £150.00? Even though an A2/1 or A2/2 is not available RTR, there is no hope of competing, is there? 

 

As I've said many times before, the RTR market is now so dominant in mainstream 4mm modelling that even decent kit-built stuff appears to have little value. A sad state of affairs in what was once a builders' market. Such is progress. 

I've recently seen a good few of my scratchbuilt models selling on Ebay for less than I got paid for them 30 years ago, never mind what Larry Goddard charged for painting them. Despite this I'm still snowed under with orders for new work, almost to the point of turning it away. I can't understand this at all but maybe Ebay is just the wrong market for this kind of thing.

[Horsetan]

....maybe Ebay is just the wrong market for this kind of thing.

 

...or the right one, depending on your perspective.

[Clearwater]

I've recently seen a good few of my scratchbuilt models selling on Ebay for less than I got paid for them 30 years ago, never mind what Larry Goddard charged for painting them. Despite this I'm still snowed under with orders for new work, almost to the point of turning it away. I can't understand this at all but maybe Ebay is just the wrong market for this kind of thing.

I don't think that's necessarily inconsistent. If someone is prepared to pay several hundred to a thousand pounds on a bespoke loco, chances are they want something precise and accurate. Eg Lode Star as out shopped from Swindon in July 1934 or whatever. Therefore they will pay through the nose for that. eBay, like any auction, relies on at least two people both wanting that precise model and given that's unlikely I can see why prices might be lower

 

On a different but related topic, I'd note that if you ask someone like Philip Hawkins for a commission, his price will be in the thousands. I think I've seen his work go at auction for significantly lower however you don't get he choice of subject

 

David

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

I've recently seen a good few of my scratchbuilt models selling on Ebay for less than I got paid for them 30 years ago, never mind what Larry Goddard charged for painting them. Despite this I'm still snowed under with orders for new work, almost to the point of turning it away. I can't understand this at all but maybe Ebay is just the wrong market for this kind of thing.

Also lack of buyer confidence is a major factor. Most are pretty cautious about anything they are not familiar with. Really basic questions like compatability with RTR track and other product, and attaching the RTR coupler of choice. And then if there is a problem with it, can I get it fixed or obtain spares?

[Flood]

Just as a guide I will tell you all the prices I will be paying for some locos I will be giving (yes, giving...for free, as Birthday/Christmas presents) to my Dad.

 

For a professional modeller to finish a Craftsman Lord Nelson built by my Dad 25 years ago; full painting, lining and numbering (post war malachite) plus all small fittings and handrails to be added: £150.00 all in - personally I feel that is a bargain.

 

PDK Maunsell H15; built, painted, lined (mixed traffic black with red, cream and grey) and numbered by PDK: £535.00

 

And for me 60506 from a Bachmann A2 being made by Tim Easter with Graeme King parts: £100.00 for the A2, £60 for parts, £300.00 for conversion, painting and full weathering; total £460.00

 

Could I have afforded any of these in the past...no. Do I think the prices are worth it to see the look on my Dad's face (and have an A2/2)...most certainly yes.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Flood

[96701]

 

 

Also lack of buyer confidence is a major factor. Most are pretty cautious about anything they are not familiar with. Really basic questions like compatability with RTR track and other product, and attaching the RTR coupler of choice. And then if there is a problem with it, can I get it fixed or obtain spares?

I agree. I have no experience of building loco kits, so when I discovered that some of Geoff's were none or poor runners, I didn't feel confident to do anything about getting them going. After some months of procrastination, I bit the bullet and started fitting things that needed to be fitted and fettle get things that needed to be fettled and finally managed to get them all running on straight track.

 

It took Tony some time to actually get them to perform on Little Bytham to a satisfactory level, and he did things that I wasn't competent to do.

[Horsetan]

....if you ask someone like Philip Hawkins for a commission, his price will be in the thousands.....

 

Tens of thousands