Wright writes.....

[Bedders]

 (Barrie Walls built one he called the multi storey train park.)

 

Sorry, thought you said Barnes Wallis, who had some rather difference ideas about delivery systems.

[Clive Mortimore]

Thanks Clive-my knowledge of DMUs has increased somewhat.  What combinations do you think would be possible?

Hi jrg1, very few, even types that were built by the same builder are not necessarily suitable. The BRCW class 104 and class 110 have many things in common, the things that are not like the cab fronts are obvious, so is the ACE engine on the 104 and the Rolls Royce engine on the 110. Not so noticeable is the beading around the windows on the 110, this not on the 104. Some of my own conversions of the Hornby 110 into a 104 still have the beading and all have the wrong engine. There are many cut and shuts that can be done but at best they are "layout DMUs". OK when I make them for me but not OK if made for paying customers.

[Pacific231G]

As for the idea of CDK, I feel there is certainly scope within the Hornby or Bachmann ranges to accommodate a more specific kit aimed at someone who wants to build things. The question is, how to get the manufacturers to support it?

Triang used to have a CKD range but I think the term may have come from  the motor industry where cars were were exported as "kits" to be asssembled locally - possibly to get round protectionist trade barriers.

 

Anyone who has modelled in North American H0 will probably be familiar with the "shake the box" kits for freight and passenger cars from companies like Roundhouse that took all of ten minutes to assemble (if you worked very slowly)  Their advantages were that packing was simpler, the completed model didn't have to be wrapped in expanded polystyrene for shipping and you didn't have to disassemble them to fit better trucks or couplings. You also got a certain degree of satisfaction from assembling them rather than just taking a complete model out of the box.  Presumably the manufacturers saved the cost of final assembly and some of the packing costs but I suspect that their real purpose was to avoid sales tax if kits were counted differently from an assembled toy. I used to buy them at Victors and the plastic (or possibly the colouring or ink) they used for the bodies had a very distinctive smell that I always associated with American modelling

 

ISTR that Peco "Wonderful Wagons" were effectively CKD kits but it's a long time since I've seen one.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Pacific231G

[Tony Wright]

Interesting "buffers" for the cassette system. I can understand the use of foam for kindness to the rolling stock, but will the plain foam blocks be sufficiently firmly retained in the intended places without something else to give definite mechanical registration?

 

Even if the points are set correctly, given that they are facing ones then that cassette access spur looks a lot less worrying with a stop block in it than it would do if left open during a running session.

Graeme,

 

The foam blocks are quite firm and butt up tightly against the last carriage. Though I haven't lifted the cassette to near-vertical to test, the stock is retained well-enough. 

 

No current can pass beyond the straight switch-rail on the point, so it would take a loco driven at some speed to 'leap into the unknown'. I've deliberately not fitted a point motor because it means I actually have to stand adjacent to the said point to change it. So far, it works.

 

I always jam the foam stop-block in place when the cassettes are not in use. Though I haven't actually driven a loco into it, I have propelled (old) RTR carriages (those belonging to my sons as children) at some speed and it can't be dislodged.   

[Focalplane]

I still have some Walthers tank cars unmade in their wrappers. My favourites were the long gone company brands like Sinclair and Cities Service. Though I think they took a bit longer to make into decent models and needed Kadee no. 5s to look good and work well.

[Tony Wright]

Never, obviously....

Like 'never' at Woking? At least getting up off my ar*se all the time to check that I'd set a road correctly in the shed (more often, incorrectly) gave me some exercise!

 

All in all, I felt Grantham ran very well (despite my blatherings out front). 

 

 

Someone should have fitted the extra bits and pieces to this P2, though, but what a beautiful train it's hauling.  

 

 

How good an RTR loco can look is shown in this shot in my view, especially pulling that gorgeous train. However, the kit-built Atlantics (at least one is) in the background hold a greater interest to me. And, all the points are set correctly. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Tony Wright

[jamie92208]

Triang used to have a CKD range but I think the term may have come from  the motor industry where cars were were exported as "kits" to be asssembled locally - possibly to get round protectionist trade barriers.

 

Anyone who has modelled in North American H0 will probably be familiar with the "shake the box" kits for freight and passenger cars from companies like Roundhouse that took all of ten minutes to assemble (if you worked very slowly)  Their advantages were that packing was simpler, the completed model didn't have to be wrapped in expanded polystyrene for shipping and you didn't have to disassemble them to fit better trucks or couplings. You also got a certain degree of satisfaction from assembling them rather than just taking a complete model out of the box.  Presumably the manufacturers saved the cost of final assembly and some of the packing costs but I suspect that their real purpose was to avoid sales tax if kits were counted differently from an assembled toy. I used to buy them at Victors and the plastic (or possibly the colouring or ink) they used for the bodies had a very distinctive smell that I always associated with American modelling

 

ISTR that Peco "Wonderful Wagons" were effectively CKD kits but it's a long time since I've seen one.

In the UK, kits did not attract Purchase Tax prior to VAT being introduced. Lotus cars always came as kits but as soon as VAT came in they were delivered fully assembled.

 

Jamie

[Tony Wright]

Perhaps 'naughty' would have been a less pejorative term, and everyone could have retired for a gentlemanly shandy afterwards with no hard feelings on either side.

 

I think we can all get along with the idea of a naughty DMU.

 

Incidentally, my Doctoral supervisor goes bananas over the use of, as she calls them, 'scare marks' to imply irony or to falsely defuse the strength of a word.

 

PS, I give it about an hour before Dr Quackinton Mallard esq of 3 The Railway Cuttings, Seat On, Devon, picks up on the term 'gentlemanly shandy' 

'Naughty'

 

Much better.

 

Many thanks. 

[5050]

According to the Kitmaster history bible, the Triang-Hornby CKD kits were introduced as a form of competition for the Kitmaster coach kits.  Wasn't there a CKD loco as well, possibly Flying Scotsman?

[jamie92208]

According to the Kitmaster history bible, the Triang-Hornby CKD kits were introduced as a form of competition for the Kitmaster coach kits.  Wasn't there a CKD loco as well, possibly Flying Scotsman?

IIRC it was the black princess.

 

Jamie

[5050]

IIRC it was the black princess.

 

Jamie

You're correct!

 

As always......................

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Tony and Brian

 

Back to this Swindon six car Inter-City unit, any photos of it roaring through LB?

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony and Brian

 

Back to this Swindon six car Inter-City unit, any photos of it roaring through LB?

There are Clive, or at least one. 

 

 

These were a most interesting mix of modifications and scratch-building, very cleverly carried out by Brian. The little dolly is still extant!

 

 

I actually do run a DMU (or two) on LB. For a time, before the station closed, there used to be a service between Peterborough and Lincoln which stopped there, which was a DMU. Unlike most of the Peterborough-Lincoln DMU services, it ran up the main line as far as Barkston, serving the intermediate stations. My problem was (is) that it ran on Saturdays; yet I run the Tees-Tyne Pullman and the (named) Elizabethan, which were only weekday trains. Modellers' licence? The EE Type 4, like the DMU is modified Bachmann. 

 

 

I added flexible gangways and close-coupled the pair, and Rob Davey weathered it (as he did the EE Type 4). Any ideas of how to get inside and change the destination boards?

 

 

 

We also replicated the same service on Stoke, but the DMU on that was built from an MTK kit by Tony Geary. Use whatever expletives you like to mimic Tony's response to building the awful thing. I think he did a great job. It's since been sold, for a relative pittance. 

 

 

Martin Lloyd also built an MTK Cravens DMU, this time a four-car unit. It ran on Biggleswade, and generated much interest. Not as much, I have to say, as the W1 (which I built). Martin also built the 4-6-2-2's train. 

 

So, you see Clive, evidence of an 'interest' in DMUs, though they're not my work. 

[Anglian]

Little Bytham is developing beautifully. I've often wondered about the best colour to paint the fascia of a layout and think your choice works very well. In answer to your extensive fiddle yard still not giving you enough storage have you ever considered installing one of the vertical storage systems now available, at a price, to increase the capacity? Or alternatively constructing a home designed electro-mechanical lift, perhaps in the style of the Rev. Peter Denny? Such an addition could totally resolve the need to handle your locomotives at all.

 

I'd imagine integrating either at this stage could lead to an outburst of language but it might be worth considering as a future development.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Anglian

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Tony and Brian

 

Back to this Swindon six car Inter-City unit, any photos of it roaring through LB?

He (TW) thought they were Cross-Country units Clive, and thought they all looked the same, so I think he only took one pic of half of the units, what can you do?. I've tried to broaden he of the apple green pyjamas's outlook on Britain's railways, but have failed again, of course if Inter-City units had trundled up and down the GN for twenty years, it would be a completely different matter! There were twelve half-built cars on the day, which included nine different types of vehicle, making up four units, each of three cars, or else further mixed into two six-car sets. Their un-finished state is obvious in the one and only photo (why waste digital space in the camera), eight cars are green, the other four still have raw plasticard sides, I really am struggling to find the time to complete them.

    I'd already spotted the local Cravens unit lurking on LB, they are obviously more familiar and held in greater affection, than anything from the ScR. It's all very tribal.

                                                Cheers, Brian.

[jjb1970]

Ade always offered their coach models in pre-painted kit form, they were noticeably cheaper than the RTR versions but not that much cheaper. Although given how expensive Ade coaches were (I'd stress they were an extremely high quality product and I'm not whinging about the cost) that saving was still worth having.

[jrg1]

The DMU photographs brought back many memories of the fifties and sixties, catching the local to Grantham and changing to a London train, or going via Sleaford to Peterborough and changing for London.  LB definitely needs a class 114 or two and my nostalgia will be complete.

[Tony Wright]

He (TW) thought they were Cross-Country units Clive, and thought they all looked the same, so I think he only took one pic of half of the units, what can you do?. I've tried to broaden he of the apple green pyjamas's outlook on Britain's railways, but have failed again, of course if Inter-City units had trundled up and down the GN for twenty years, it would be a completely different matter! There were twelve half-built cars on the day, which included nine different types of vehicle, making up four units, each of three cars, or else further mixed into two six-car sets. Their un-finished state is obvious in the one and only photo (why waste digital space in the camera), eight cars are green, the other four still have raw plasticard sides, I really am struggling to find the time to complete them.

    I'd already spotted the local Cravens unit lurking on LB, they are obviously more familiar and held in greater affection, than anything from the ScR. It's all very tribal.

                                                Cheers, Brian.

When they're complete, it'll be my privilege to photograph the rake(s) when you next bring them along. You can, of course, take pictures of your own. 

 

Speaking of things tribal, there is not one apple green anything (pyjamas or not) on LB (apart from some barge boards on some of the buildings). What's green, locos and rolling stock, is BR's equivalent of Brunswick Green, as used by the GWR. I was but a mere pushchair enthusiast when the LNER ceased to exist (though I saw apple green locos, but lettered 'British Railways') and I only model what I can clearly remember. Though I never made a habit of taking DMUs' numbers, I see in my mouldering 1960 Ian Allan Combine a few underlined; however, nothing starting with SC51008, SC51030, SC59391 or SC59402, so, please, excuse my ignorance of such things. That same crumbling tome tells me that there were some Swindon-built Cross Country units, including Trailer Buffet Seconds, SC59679-85. Were these similar in appearance to the Inter City ones? I only ask to explain my mistake in mis-identifying the cars. I did see some Cross Country DMUs but these were built by the Gloucester R.C.& W.Co.; a different design, I'm told.

 

No doubt, in the fullness of time, Irwell will ask me to produce a book on DMUs; my Deltic one has been signed-off and I'm working on the Class 50s and (in a little way) helping a friend with the Class 31s. What that fullness of time might be, I've no idea, but long after my time on this planet is over I expect.

 

Seriously (for once), it does give me great pleasure when friends bring locos/stock to run of which I know very little. That way, I learn something, or try to.   

The DMU photographs brought back many memories of the fifties and sixties, catching the local to Grantham and changing to a London train, or going via Sleaford to Peterborough and changing for London.  LB definitely needs a class 114 or two and my nostalgia will be complete.

What is a Class 114, please?

[Brian Kirby]

Swindon Cross-Country and Inter-City units were, to no great surprise, superficially similar. Scottish Region, and initially Western Region, used both types. Most of the Craven units used on the GN, were of a distinctive design, whereas their close cousins on other regions were both physically, and sometimes mechanically different, although still similar in overall appearance. The more you look, the more variation you discover. Thank god they weren't all the same, life would be so dull. Incidentally Tony, I hope you realize DMU number spotting, is only one step up from bus number spotting!

                                                                                        Cheers, Brian.  :-))

[Clive Mortimore]

When they're complete, it'll be my privilege to photograph the rake(s) when you next bring them along. You can, of course, take pictures of your own. 

 

Speaking of things tribal, there is not one apple green anything (pyjamas or not) on LB (apart from some barge boards on some of the buildings). What's green, locos and rolling stock, is BR's equivalent of Brunswick Green, as used by the GWR. I was but a mere pushchair enthusiast when the LNER ceased to exist (though I saw apple green locos, but lettered 'British Railways') and I only model what I can clearly remember. Though I never made a habit of taking DMUs' numbers, I see in my mouldering 1960 Ian Allan Combine a few underlined; however, nothing starting with SC51008, SC51030, SC59391 or SC59402, so, please, excuse my ignorance of such things. That same crumbling tome tells me that there were some Swindon-built Cross Country units, including Trailer Buffet Seconds, SC59679-85. Were these similar in appearance to the Inter City ones? I only ask to explain my mistake in mis-identifying the cars. I did see some Cross Country DMUs but these were built by the Gloucester R.C.& W.Co.; a different design, I'm told.

 

No doubt, in the fullness of time, Irwell will ask me to produce a book on DMUs; my Deltic one has been signed-off and I'm working on the Class 50s and (in a little way) helping a friend with the Class 31s. What that fullness of time might be, I've no idea, but long after my time on this planet is over I expect.

 

Seriously (for once), it does give me great pleasure when friends bring locos/stock to run of which I know very little. That way, I learn something, or try to.   

What is a Class 114, please?

Hi Tony

 

A Class 114, is a Derby long underframe, heavy weight, low density 2 car unit. Motor Brake Seconds E50000 to E50049 and Driving Trailer Composites E56000 to E56049. They spent most of their working days based at Lincoln but could bee seen as far away as Manchester, Sheffield, Cambridge, and Nottingham. They were distinctive in being the only low density units on long underfames. They were regulars at Grantham and Peterborough on various services but I am not sure if they worked between these two locations along the ECML.

 

Swindon built Inter-city and Cross Country units at first do appear to be similar, both types having the same two windscreen design of cab. Cross Country units have a destination display blind above the windscreens and it is this feature I look for to tell the two types apart. Both types have various headcode lights or panels depending on the build dates. The coach sides are another way of telling them apart. The Cross Country units have their seating arranged in bays with passenger doors approximately 1/3 and 2/3s along the body (the centre cars having another passenger door at one end). The Inter-city units seating is compartments for first class and open saloons for second class as found on hauled passenger stock with the passenger access doors being in similar positions of hauled stock. This gives the Inter-city units a similar look to Mk1 coaches but if you look carefully they have a different body profile, it is very similar to the later Mk2 coaches which in turn owe their integral design to these units.

 

For those of us who appreciate the contribution the humble DMU made to the railways in the 1960s, 70s and 80s the modelling possibilities are great when one looks at the multitude of variations that existed. The window layout changes between a TC(L) Marylebone Derby suburban unit and similar looking TS(L) of a St Pancras Derby suburban unit are as exciting as the types of boiler carried by an A3 to us.

[jrg1]

Thanks to Clive for nailing the subject of DMUs.  Although the Class 114 were always associated with Lincolnshire, towards the end of the first generation DMU era, there was quite a lot of variety, no doubt due to units drafted in from other areas to cover for withdrawn examples, and hybrid sets came to be seen for the same reason.  Travelling quite a lot in the seventies and eighties, it was advisable to have a seat in the trailers, especially on a hot day, with the fumes and engine noise tending to make the journey more of a trial.

[46256]

The humble dmu, loathed by us when first introduced,earning the nickname bog carts by my mates. These same friends now travel the length of the country ( aided by over sixties discounted fares) to spot some latest unit...

In terms of modelling the late fifties sixties and seventies....certainly in the Birmingham area then models of cravens three car...BRCW class 104 and class 120 Swindon units....not to mention the Derby built suburban..are essential. I remember seeing photographs of Borchester for the first time...it was the dmu model that caught my eye. I believe the MRJ summed it up ....modelling the mundane and everyday is a real art form. My own model has the classes mentioned...in addition the three car GWR set. The really beautiful class 123 with its curved Windows. A Bachmann Midland Pullman ....albeit a replacement for my own model lovingly created from Triang and kitmaster. This model was sold and the Bachmann purchased. It is far superior to my effort....yet I do not "enjoy" it the same way as the previous one. Thus echoing Tony about the pleasure derived from your own creations. I have a class 103 dmu in works...Worsley model etched sides on a Bachmann class 108 donor. The latter seen in merseyside rather than Brum. In conclusion no diesel beats my love of the steam engine, however seeing my class 120 unit pulling into my station is a nostalgic treat.

[jrg1]

The humble dmu, loathed by us when first introduced,earning the nickname bog carts by my mates. These same friends now travel the length of the country ( aided by over sixties discounted fares) to spot some latest unit...

In terms of modelling the late fifties sixties and seventies....certainly in the Birmingham area then models of cravens three car...BRCW class 104 and class 120 Swindon units....not to mention the Derby built suburban..are essential. I remember seeing photographs of Borchester for the first time...it was the dmu model that caught my eye. I believe the MRJ summed it up ....modelling the mundane and everyday is a real art form. My own model has the classes mentioned...in addition the three car GWR set. The really beautiful class 123 with its curved Windows. A Bachmann Midland Pullman ....albeit a replacement for my own model lovingly created from Triang and kitmaster. This model was sold and the Bachmann purchased. It is far superior to my effort....yet I do not "enjoy" it the same way as the previous one. Thus echoing Tony about the pleasure derived from your own creations. I have a class 103 dmu in works...Worsley model etched sides on a Bachmann class 108 donor. The latter seen in merseyside rather than Brum. In conclusion no diesel beats my love of the steam engine, however seeing my class 120 unit pulling into my station is a nostalgic treat.

Loathed when they were introduced, missed when they disappeared.  Taking the train to Skeggy-a Lincolnshire class 114, absolutely crowded with holidaymakers and heading down the fen line to Coningsby Junction, and on to Bellwater, Firsby and Skegness was quintessentially Lincolnshire as I grew up.  I have the Derby Lightweight, Metro-Cammell and Cravens units for local Lincolnshire services, so could everyone please vote for a 114 unit in the annual wishlist?  Ta.  By the way, augmented class 114 sets could be seen at LB, so that means you too, Tony!

[Focalplane]

OK, this is where I will admit to a major faux pas on my first trainspotting journey.  Somewhere between Oswestry, Gobowen, Snow Hill and the Lakes Halt I wrote down a number on the side of a train that began 5-----.  I later found that this locomotive was a real rarity until my mentor explained that there must have been a W in front of the number.  [insert your own emoticon here, I refuse to use them]

 

This set back made me dislike DMUs, but I have to admit that whichever class they were, the opportunity to sit behind the driver and see the North Warwickshire Line ahead was a great experience.  And it made trainspotting of steam locomotives approaching on the other track easier too!

[46256]

May I just record my posthumous gratitude to the late Michael Mensing. A true gentleman who had the foresight to record these new DMUs as well as many memorable images of steam..