Wright writes.....

[landscapes]

David

Thanks - Yes, GCR south of Loughborough.

 

 

 

 

Tony

 

Yes, at the time, the owners of this particular 8F had decided to paint it red - their choice I suppose - but they had agreed to it being temporarily pained black for photography; this was done by the organisers the night before the charter, using poster paints......it then rained, hard, so that on one side half the paint washed off, and most of the rest looked a mess - "dirtied" in your terms! So the overall look was not exactly what had been intended, but it looks pretty reasonable to me - especially in black & white.

I should add that the loco has since been repainted more permanently in black.

 

Tony

Hi Tony

 

Just out of curiosity was the charter organised by Russ Hillier.

 

Regards

 

David

[Tony Teague]

Hi Tony

 

Just out of curiosity was the charter organised by Russ Hillier.

 

Regards

 

David

David

No, by Timeline Events: http://timelineevents.org/ (no connection etc)

Tony

[Tony Wright]

 

Tony the loco in the photo above should should have been a Thompson A2/3, either 60515 Sun Stream or 60523 Sun Castle !!

 

You certainly have a Steady Aim (60512) with your camera !!.

 

Brit 15

Or A3 SUNSTAR? Or, more tangentially SOLARIO? I've got a model of the latter. 

[Tony Wright]

I have no technical training in photography, I'm very much 'seat of the pants', so hopefully a professional will be along to help us soon! However... The light on the subject varies with the angle of the sun. As you observe, midday light can be more flattering but less 'interesting' . A low sun and, come to that winter sun, can make for much more vibrant images but equally less flattering to certain subjects. To quote the song Maggie May "The morning sun when it's in your face really shows your age".

 

The colours of sunsets and sunrise are caused by atmospheric pollution, man made or otherwise, so that brilliant red sunset is likely 'man made'. Sunrise can be less colourful because there is less pollution in the air at that time of the day. I would assume that your location geographically would also affect this.

 

As to your images, in the first shot the low light has caused that attractive glint along the boiler. However, I find the second one a bit visually confusing. Depending on the time of year the afternoon sun would still be relative high and it has been reflected by the window.... Not sure about that one. The first is very attractive, especially if you crop out most of that sky. Crank up the saturation and you'd have a Steam Railway centre spread!

 

 

Thanks Trevor,

 

The reflecting window was open, so it just happened to catch the sun.

 

I'm not quite sure why you find the second picture 'visually confusing'. It's just a picture of a well-made and well-painted OO Gauge steam outline model on a model railway, taken from the top of a cutting.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

Good evening Tony

 

I feel the same way as regards goods trains. A number of people have pointed out what a neglected subject it is but nothing has been covered in much depth on the thread. I would be interested to hear what Andy Rush had to say, also what was the story with the fruit vans?

Good evening Andrew,

 

I wish I'd made notes as to what Andy had told me.

 

With regard to the fruit vans, I think his comments went along the lines of where might they have originated, or where were they being returned to. I suppose his reasoning for putting them on the M&GNR was that that system served more agrarian areas. 

 

When he and another friend were here (over seven years ago now) he pointed out things which needed changing in several of my freight trains, I mixed/muddled/matched the vehicles according to what he said, and that was that - I just left them. Not much help, I'm afraid. 

[manna]

G'day Gents

 

Reading with interest about the merits of Black and white v colour photography, from a personal point of view, I don't like black and white, as I'm not colour blind, black and white should only be used in old magazines or if your recreating a old mag picture, even Pre Grouping pics should be in colour as life wasn't in black and white, even back then.

 

manna (AKA Terry)

[Headstock]

Thank's Tony,

 

 I suppose fruit vans do tend to get scattered about in a random manner on a lot of layouts. Life is a little bit easier for the GC modeller as many of the freight trains were bulk loads working between two large marshalling yards. Others had rather colourful

and helpful colloquialisms, such as the 'Rabbits' and the 'Vegie'. The latter was a fitted freight working between Woodford and York, the name derived from the fruit and vegetable traffic that had come up from Southhampton docks.

 

Originally I only produced one freight train for LSG, no surprise that it went to Woodford. It was a gypsum train originating from the British Gypsum sidings at Hotchley Hill. The company was very helpful in providing information about how the train was formed. Gypsum in its graded state was transported in hoppers and also mineral waggons depending on the unloading instructions at the final destination. Products such as plaster and plasterboard were conveyed in sheeted goods wagons and shock vans respectively. One of the bosses of the present organization recalled, that during  University holidays, he had the job of scrubbing out the empty coal wagons prior to the loading of the gypsum. This took place at the mines located down the Gotham branch. I was pretty lucky to get all this information, but I do try to work to some sort of logic when it comes to freight trains, based on whatever information and photographs I can get hold of.

[TrevorP1]

Thanks Trevor,

 

The reflecting window was open, so it just happened to catch the sun.

 

I'm not quite sure why you find the second picture 'visually confusing'. It's just a picture of a well-made and well-painted OO Gauge steam outline model on a model railway, taken from the top of a cutting.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

Sorry Tony, I should have made myself clearer. It's just something about the way the light is falling on the scene. Maybe it's just me or my monitor but I find it looks as though the light is coming from more than one place. There is a reflection on the left hand running plate and the top of the boiler but also on the right hand side of the boiler and tender.

 

Just a personal thing, no criticism of the model itself.

 

Trevor

Edited January 6, 2017 by TrevorP1

[coachmann]

Reading with interest about the merits of Black and white v colour photography, from a personal point of view, I don't like black and white, as I'm not colour blind, black and white should only be used in old magazines or if your recreating a old mag picture, even Pre Grouping pics should be in colour as life wasn't in black and white, even back then.

If only colour stock has been available back then.... Who would have bothered with black & white.... 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by coachmann

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Mike,

 

I wonder on occasions how 'accurate' my depictions of goods trains are on Little Bytham. Some years ago, the late Andy Rush visited and set me straight on how wrong I'd made up some of my formations - I quickly acted upon this. For instance, fruit vans on the main line; 'Highly-unlikely' said he, 'Put them on the M&GNR.' 

 

Having spent hours/days/months/years making-up accurate ECML passenger train formations (using BR's official documents in part), I'd like to get the goods trains as near right as well. I tend to use prototype pictures as a guide, identifying types of wagons and inserting them into the right places in trains. I have the BR lamp code for describing trains and apply this as well as I can when 'lamping-up' locos. I've not long come across yet another picture of a goods train hauled by a loco with one lamp at 12 o'clock and one at 6 o'clock (I hope my description doesn't offend, but it's obviously one on the top bracket and one in the centre, above the coupling). Fine, because the train is a long rake of empty, unfitted minerals. However, another loco carrying exactly the same lamp code was on a rake of (what appeared to be) fitted vans. Did several of the goods train categories overlap? Please forgive my ignorance on this. I suppose similar 'anomalies' (if that's what they are) occurred on passenger trains, with long trains of gangwayed stock with the loco carrying a single lamp at the top and shorter trains of non-gangwayed stock with the loco showing Class 1 lamps. 

 

One thing I am doing as a matter of priority is fitting white/red lamps to the outsides of my brake vans when they're behind stock which is non-fitted. 

 

I see 'Grantham man' has already visited and the source he has given is quite good (although I haven't checked all the detail).  Headcodes (except for the SR and oddments such as the S&DJtR) were standardised from May 1950 with a couple of very minor changes in September 1954 and then reissued in October 1960 with little change (except on the WR - of course).  They went numeric nationally instead of alpha in June 1962 (except on the WR, which had changed over to numeric in 1960) and since then have been repeatedly messed about with changing considerably in character from being based to some extent on traffic conceveyed and proportion of fitted vehicles to ever great emphasis on proportion of fitted vehicles and maximum speed permitted for the various classes of train.

 

Class H was a sort of 'all things to all men' classification which tended to fit what it said, i.e. none of the superior classes but freight marshalling circulars on the GWR/WR sometimes suggest that it might have been used when trains had a through load to destination with no traffic to drop or pick up at booked intermediate traffic stops (but note the letters 'GWR' ).

 

All longer distance freights ran in accordance with Marshalling Instructions and these were based on several things - partly the need to segregate vacuum fitted vehicles if required to allow the train to run at its booked classification but even more importantly to segregate traffic by destination and/or intermediate marshalling points.  The latter was critical as intermediate stops were timed around the work which had to be done thus there was no messing about shunting individual wagons but work was concentrated on adding/removing groups of wagons which had been marshalled together specifically for that purpose.  The job could be, and increasingly was, complicated by the split of fitted and unfitted vehicles because that could mean, and often did, that there would be two segregations to shunt out at an intermediate yard and possibly two places (at least) to add new portions of segregated vehicles - but all the time the aim of the Marshalling Instructions/Circulars was to make sure that train formations being dealt with at any yard on  a particular service were consistent day-after-day even if the quantities of traffic might vary.

 

Getting marshalling right could and did make a considerable difference - after Severn Tunnel Jcn yard was closed in the late 1980s Gloucester ran into considerable problems trying to keep pace with the extra work it gained with a result that punctuality fell to pieces.  I was sent there to try to sort out the problems and one of the answers, apart from retiming a couple of trains to make connections work properly, was to alter the marshalling of several arriving trains to simplify shunting taking into account the problems posed by the track layout and lack of a long headshunt (yes, it happens in the real world).  Relatively simple stuff when you sat and thought about it and planned the marshalling to suit the layout and it made an immediate difference.

 

A further point about marshalling of freight traffic is that it also relates to the routes traffic follows or is planned to follow - Andy was the ideal expert for you in this respect because of his experience in that part of the world (where I know little about traffic flows - not my neck of the woods) and very often things don't work the way you think they might.  Not really your area but some of the Great Western routes for goods and especially coal class traffic were very different from what people tend to expect.  And this is where folk who dealt with a particular area become invaluable but numbers are dwindling,for example prior to Christmas I attended a couple of 'old boys' lunches one with former Controllers and the other being the WR freight planners and as ever a number older folk are no longer with us.  For example on the freight side we are down to under 20 who were involved in freight planning (including such things as marshalling Instructions) from the former WR freight planning/freight ops offices - and we were only reorganised out of existence 23 years ago so a lot of knowledge and information is gradually draining away.

 

As ever of course working timetables will be a big help but ideally if you can find them freight marshalling circulars can be just as helpful as passenger coach working because while they don't necessarily specify particular traffics they will give some clues.

[chris p bacon]

 Some years ago, the late Andy Rush visited 

 

By chance I've been going through some of Andy's material while having lunch yesterday and today and cataloguing it for the societies archive.

[Tony Wright]

Sorry Tony, I should have made myself clearer. It's just something about the way the light is falling on the scene. Maybe it's just me or my monitor but I find it looks as though the light is coming from more than one place. There is a reflection on the left hand running plate and the top of the boiler but also on the right hand side of the boiler and tender.

 

Just a personal thing, no criticism of the model itself.

 

Trevor

Thanks again, Trevor,

 

I should have made myself clearer as well. When I mentioned reflected sunlight, it was not direct reflected sunlight. That would have burnt out just about everything on the model. 

 

Though the interior wall and ceiling are painted white, the doors are in their natural wooden finish - a pleasant warm tone. From memory, these weren't wide open (I should have made notes to attempt to replicate this effect again) and the reflected sunlight was directed on to these, then 'bounced' into the room - hence the golden effect. Interestingly, there is little of an effect on the carriages (modified Bachmann Mk.1s) because these are in a more matt finish. 

 

In the second picture the light is coming from several directions; the numerous strip lights and the pulses from the fill-in flash. I don't mind this because it gives an even, uniform effect (more like a cloudy day?). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Headstock]

I see 'Grantham man' has already visited and the source he has given is quite good (although I haven't checked all the detail).  Headcodes (except for the SR and oddments such as the S&DJtR) were standardised from May 1950 with a couple of very minor changes in September 1954 and then reissued in October 1960 with little change (except on the WR - of course).  They went numeric nationally instead of alpha in June 1962 (except on the WR, which had changed over to numeric in 1960) and since then have been repeatedly messed about with changing considerably in character from being based to some extent on traffic conceveyed and proportion of fitted vehicles to ever great emphasis on proportion of fitted vehicles and maximum speed permitted for the various classes of train.

 

Class H was a sort of 'all things to all men' classification which tended to fit what it said, i.e. none of the superior classes but freight marshalling circulars on the GWR/WR sometimes suggest that it might have been used when trains had a through load to destination with no traffic to drop or pick up at booked intermediate traffic stops (but note the letters 'GWR' ).

 

All longer distance freights ran in accordance with Marshalling Instructions and these were based on several things - partly the need to segregate vacuum fitted vehicles if required to allow the train to run at its booked classification but even more importantly to segregate traffic by destination and/or intermediate marshalling points.  The latter was critical as intermediate stops were timed around the work which had to be done thus there was no messing about shunting individual wagons but work was concentrated on adding/removing groups of wagons which had been marshalled together specifically for that purpose.  The job could be, and increasingly was, complicated by the split of fitted and unfitted vehicles because that could mean, and often did, that there would be two segregations to shunt out at an intermediate yard and possibly two places (at least) to add new portions of segregated vehicles - but all the time the aim of the Marshalling Instructions/Circulars was to make sure that train formations being dealt with at any yard on  a particular service were consistent day-after-day even if the quantities of traffic might vary.

 

Getting marshalling right could and did make a considerable difference - after Severn Tunnel Jcn yard was closed in the late 1980s Gloucester ran into considerable problems trying to keep pace with the extra work it gained with a result that punctuality fell to pieces.  I was sent there to try to sort out the problems and one of the answers, apart from retiming a couple of trains to make connections work properly, was to alter the marshalling of several arriving trains to simplify shunting taking into account the problems posed by the track layout and lack of a long headshunt (yes, it happens in the real world).  Relatively simple stuff when you sat and thought about it and planned the marshalling to suit the layout and it made an immediate difference.

 

A further point about marshalling of freight traffic is that it also relates to the routes traffic follows or is planned to follow - Andy was the ideal expert for you in this respect because of his experience in that part of the world (where I know little about traffic flows - not my neck of the woods) and very often things don't work the way you think they might.  Not really your area but some of the Great Western routes for goods and especially coal class traffic were very different from what people tend to expect.  And this is where folk who dealt with a particular area become invaluable but numbers are dwindling,for example prior to Christmas I attended a couple of 'old boys' lunches one with former Controllers and the other being the WR freight planners and as ever a number older folk are no longer with us.  For example on the freight side we are down to under 20 who were involved in freight planning (including such things as marshalling Instructions) from the former WR freight planning/freight ops offices - and we were only reorganised out of existence 23 years ago so a lot of knowledge and information is gradually draining away.

 

As ever of course working timetables will be a big help but ideally if you can find them freight marshalling circulars can be just as helpful as passenger coach working because while they don't necessarily specify particular traffics they will give some clues.

 

Good morning Mike,

 

thanks for posting up the information, I must have read through your post about six or seven times. Of particular interest is your clarifiaction as regards class H. I have often pondered how it worked in the context of the Annesley Woodford runners. Initially, the trains were designated as class F special, meaning that in order to maintain the booked times, special instructions were issued that allowed the trains to exceed the maximum speed allowable under class F. I have noticed that as time passed more and more trains began to be running under class H, although F special was never fully superseded. I have never understood what the difference is between the two when for all intents and purposes the two types of train are on the same working. I would like to ask a couple of questions that you may be able to answer. Was class H always unfitted, and was it quite usual for fitted stock to run as unfitted given what you mention concerning the marshaling of trains. Finally, what was the maximum speed allowable under class H. Many thanks for your time, it is sad to hear of the passing of so many of your colleagues from what must have been a fascinating job.

[92220]

Morning Tony,

 

I thought you might like to see what I've been up to:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It runs, smoothly to my eye, and hopefully to yours too.

 

 

 

Comet chassis under a considerably Comet-modified Hornby body. I used Markits crossheads and piston rods, Markits correct-pattern wheels, a Comet gearbox and a 1628 Mashima. It is packed with lead up to just over 500g total, so while it certainly won't outhaul one of your smooth-as-silk DJH Pacifics, I am hopeful that it will be ok. It needs etched plates, weathering, a crew, lamps and some coal, so it's not exactly complete yet.

 

3 coats of Klear do wonders for the dodgy Hornby shade of red.

 

On the Royal Scot, that is now almost completed, and again, the dull green is enlivened by Klear. But I think I might have made an error in mounting the motor and gearbox as I did (and as suggested). The body has a heavy nose weight anyway, and there is only room to add weight forward of the motor, so the whole loco is a bit nose-heavy. I think I will probably have to hang the tender off the back of the loco to add weight to the rear that way. I wonder whether, on the next one, I ought to mount the box the other way round, to leave space in the firebox for lead. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

 

 

Oh, and my efforts at pickups are improving I think:

 

 

I've had a huge amount of enjoyment from building these two, and I think it's safe to describe my addiction to loco construction as complete! It's one thing building a Jinty chassis, and a whole new area to build a smooth, quiet and powerful pacific. I'm looking forward to getting it on the front of a decent rake. Next will be another Coronation, though I'm not yet sure whether I'll start the DJH Ivatt one, or do the second Comet chassis that I have.

 

With many thanks as always for your teaching and encouragement.

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

[Tony Wright]

I see 'Grantham man' has already visited and the source he has given is quite good (although I haven't checked all the detail).  Headcodes (except for the SR and oddments such as the S&DJtR) were standardised from May 1950 with a couple of very minor changes in September 1954 and then reissued in October 1960 with little change (except on the WR - of course).  They went numeric nationally instead of alpha in June 1962 (except on the WR, which had changed over to numeric in 1960) and since then have been repeatedly messed about with changing considerably in character from being based to some extent on traffic conceveyed and proportion of fitted vehicles to ever great emphasis on proportion of fitted vehicles and maximum speed permitted for the various classes of train.

 

Class H was a sort of 'all things to all men' classification which tended to fit what it said, i.e. none of the superior classes but freight marshalling circulars on the GWR/WR sometimes suggest that it might have been used when trains had a through load to destination with no traffic to drop or pick up at booked intermediate traffic stops (but note the letters 'GWR' ).

 

All longer distance freights ran in accordance with Marshalling Instructions and these were based on several things - partly the need to segregate vacuum fitted vehicles if required to allow the train to run at its booked classification but even more importantly to segregate traffic by destination and/or intermediate marshalling points.  The latter was critical as intermediate stops were timed around the work which had to be done thus there was no messing about shunting individual wagons but work was concentrated on adding/removing groups of wagons which had been marshalled together specifically for that purpose.  The job could be, and increasingly was, complicated by the split of fitted and unfitted vehicles because that could mean, and often did, that there would be two segregations to shunt out at an intermediate yard and possibly two places (at least) to add new portions of segregated vehicles - but all the time the aim of the Marshalling Instructions/Circulars was to make sure that train formations being dealt with at any yard on  a particular service were consistent day-after-day even if the quantities of traffic might vary.

 

Getting marshalling right could and did make a considerable difference - after Severn Tunnel Jcn yard was closed in the late 1980s Gloucester ran into considerable problems trying to keep pace with the extra work it gained with a result that punctuality fell to pieces.  I was sent there to try to sort out the problems and one of the answers, apart from retiming a couple of trains to make connections work properly, was to alter the marshalling of several arriving trains to simplify shunting taking into account the problems posed by the track layout and lack of a long headshunt (yes, it happens in the real world).  Relatively simple stuff when you sat and thought about it and planned the marshalling to suit the layout and it made an immediate difference.

 

A further point about marshalling of freight traffic is that it also relates to the routes traffic follows or is planned to follow - Andy was the ideal expert for you in this respect because of his experience in that part of the world (where I know little about traffic flows - not my neck of the woods) and very often things don't work the way you think they might.  Not really your area but some of the Great Western routes for goods and especially coal class traffic were very different from what people tend to expect.  And this is where folk who dealt with a particular area become invaluable but numbers are dwindling,for example prior to Christmas I attended a couple of 'old boys' lunches one with former Controllers and the other being the WR freight planners and as ever a number older folk are no longer with us.  For example on the freight side we are down to under 20 who were involved in freight planning (including such things as marshalling Instructions) from the former WR freight planning/freight ops offices - and we were only reorganised out of existence 23 years ago so a lot of knowledge and information is gradually draining away.

 

As ever of course working timetables will be a big help but ideally if you can find them freight marshalling circulars can be just as helpful as passenger coach working because while they don't necessarily specify particular traffics they will give some clues.

As always, thanks Mike.

 

What I tend to do more these days is find prototype pictures of a variety of goods trains, taken around about the time I'm modelling, replicate those as well as I can and attempt to lamp the locos up accordingly.

 

Speaking of lamps on model locos (which has been discussed before), little destroys the illusion of reality to me as a model loco heading a train, and the loco carries no lamps. I agree, if any lamps displayed are misshapen, blobby and way over-scale, then what is worse? I've seen some recently which are just that, and they look awful. Worse than no lamps at all? Perhaps.

 

I presume no signalman would allow a train to proceed unless it were carrying the correct lamp code (and a tail lamp as well).

 

 

 

There is, of course, the exception to every rule. Clearly MANNA is light engine in this shot at York, taken in May 1958. Yet, it's carrying an 'ordinary' passenger lamp code. It's not going to York shed right at this point because it's in forward gear. Has it just come off a local passenger train, is now running forward to clear a road and then will reverse back to 50A? Or, has it left the shed, run through the station and is about to cross over to the Up side in readiness to take out a southbound 'ord' to Selby/Doncaster or Leeds? 

 

Selecting pictures for captioning for forthcoming books, I've just been going through loads taken at Grantham. In almost every case, where a loco change is taking place or has taken place, the locos are displaying Class 1 (A) lamps, whether going forward or in reverse. I've found only two examples where the correct light-engine code (one in the middle above the coupling) is carried in the direction the loco's going and a correct tail lamp (one above either buffer) is carried in the direction the loco's going. Was this sort of thing common practice where locos didn't have to travel a great distance between the shed and their duties? 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Morning Tony,

 

I thought you might like to see what I've been up to:

 

IMG_1204.JPG

 

IMG_1208.JPG

 

IMG_1210.JPG

 

IMG_1215.JPG

 

IMG_1216.JPG

 

IMG_1229.JPG

 

It runs, smoothly to my eye, and hopefully to yours too.

 

 

 

Comet chassis under a considerably Comet-modified Hornby body. I used Markits crossheads and piston rods, Markits correct-pattern wheels, a Comet gearbox and a 1628 Mashima. It is packed with lead up to just over 500g total, so while it certainly won't outhaul one of your smooth-as-silk DJH Pacifics, I am hopeful that it will be ok. It needs etched plates, weathering, a crew, lamps and some coal, so it's not exactly complete yet.

 

3 coats of Klear do wonders for the dodgy Hornby shade of red.

 

On the Royal Scot, that is now almost completed, and again, the dull green is enlivened by Klear. But I think I might have made an error in mounting the motor and gearbox as I did (and as suggested). The body has a heavy nose weight anyway, and there is only room to add weight forward of the motor, so the whole loco is a bit nose-heavy. I think I will probably have to hang the tender off the back of the loco to add weight to the rear that way. I wonder whether, on the next one, I ought to mount the box the other way round, to leave space in the firebox for lead. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

IMG_1227.JPG

 

IMG_1233.JPG

 

Oh, and my efforts at pickups are improving I think:

 

IMG_1206.JPG

 

I've had a huge amount of enjoyment from building these two, and I think it's safe to describe my addiction to loco construction as complete! It's one thing building a Jinty chassis, and a whole new area to build a smooth, quiet and powerful pacific. I'm looking forward to getting it on the front of a decent rake. Next will be another Coronation, though I'm not yet sure whether I'll start the DJH Ivatt one, or do the second Comet chassis that I have.

 

With many thanks as always for your teaching and encouragement.

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

This is great stuff Iain; very well done. 

 

If I've been only a tiny, tiny bit instrumental in your making of such wonderful models, then the spirit is lifted. 

 

Now, with regard to extra ballast/weight where it's needed: though the Belpaire 'box on the Scot is narrow at the bottom, it does widen out towards the top. Strips of lead should then be able to be glued into the inner sides and not touch the motor. Occasionally, a strip of lead will fit underneath the top as well. Or, you could use 'fluid lead' (or whatever it's called - liquid lead/liquid gravity?) There's usually space between the frames underneath the motor to squeeze in an 'ingot' or so of lead. And, don't forget the underneath of the cab roof. A quite sizeable strip of lead can be accommodated there.

 

As you suggest as well, having the front of the tender transfer weight to the back of the loco also works. I've tried all of these and they work. A coil spring on the bogie pivot also works; in two ways. For one, it transfers weight towards the rear and two, it usually helps the bogie to ride better as well.  

[glo41f]

Iain

 

Well done on the  Duchess. It  really looks the part. Very handsome locos just a pity they went on the other side of the country!  I really would like to have one sometime. I wonder what the new Hornby offering will look like. There is a precedent for one running in Norfolk in that one was running on the MNR two years ago, Standing beside those massive wheels was quite an experience. The red livery suits them too. I can recall the excitement when Hornby announced that the 2 rail Duchess would be produced in red. I did eventually get one of those and was very pleased with it. Your version is streets ahead of that.

 

Martin Long

[31A]

As always, thanks Mike.

 

What I tend to do more these days is find prototype pictures of a variety of goods trains, taken around about the time I'm modelling, replicate those as well as I can and attempt to lamp the locos up accordingly.

 

Speaking of lamps on model locos (which has been discussed before), little destroys the illusion of reality to me as a model loco heading a train, and the loco carries no lamps. I agree, if any lamps displayed are misshapen, blobby and way over-scale, then what is worse? I've seen some recently which are just that, and they look awful. Worse than no lamps at all? Perhaps.

 

I presume no signalman would allow a train to proceed unless it were carrying the correct lamp code (and a tail lamp as well).

 

219.3 - 60085 3.5.58.jpg

 

There is, of course, the exception to every rule. Clearly MANNA is light engine in this shot at York, taken in May 1958. Yet, it's carrying an 'ordinary' passenger lamp code. It's not going to York shed right at this point because it's in forward gear. Has it just come off a local passenger train, is now running forward to clear a road and then will reverse back to 50A? Or, has it left the shed, run through the station and is about to cross over to the Up side in readiness to take out a southbound 'ord' to Selby/Doncaster or Leeds? 

 

Selecting pictures for captioning for forthcoming books, I've just been going through loads taken at Grantham. In almost every case, where a loco change is taking place or has taken place, the locos are displaying Class 1 (A) lamps, whether going forward or in reverse. I've found only two examples where the correct light-engine code (one in the middle above the coupling) is carried in the direction the loco's going and a correct tail lamp (one above either buffer) is carried in the direction the loco's going. Was this sort of thing common practice where locos didn't have to travel a great distance between the shed and their duties? 

 

 

I've always thought that the headlamp codes only need to be correct if the loco leaves 'station limits' and travels between block sections, so in the York example given, if the loco were just shunting within the station limits or in order to get to the shed, it wouldn't matter what headcode was carried.  The crew might well have put headlamps in position for the train it is going to work, before it left the shed, or leave them from the train it has just come off until it gets back on shed.  If on the other hand it was going to travel light engine to Selby or Doncaster, through several block sections through which it would be signalled as a 'train' using the 'Light Engine' bell code, then it would carry the 'Light Engine' headcode (and a tail lamp on the rear).  As far as I know, no lamp iron is specified for the position of the tail lamp on a loco as long as a red aspect is displayed, so I imagine the crew would just put it on the easiest to reach, which would usually be one of the ones above a buffer, but in a photograph (especially black & white) a tail lamp looks much the same as a headlamp!

[Tony Wright]

I've always thought that the headlamp codes only need to be correct if the loco leaves 'station limits' and travels between block sections, so in the York example given, if the loco were just shunting within the station limits or in order to get to the shed, it wouldn't matter what headcode was carried.  The crew might well have put headlamps in position for the train it is going to work, before it left the shed, or leave them from the train it has just come off until it gets back on shed.  If on the other hand it was going to travel light engine to Selby or Doncaster, through several block sections through which it would be signalled as a 'train' using the 'Light Engine' bell code, then it would carry the 'Light Engine' headcode (and a tail lamp on the rear).  As far as I know, no lamp iron is specified for the position of the tail lamp on a loco as long as a red aspect is displayed, so I imagine the crew would just put it on the easiest to reach, which would usually be one of the ones above a buffer, but in a photograph (especially black & white) a tail lamp looks much the same as a headlamp!

Thanks Steve,

 

Would light engine movements to/from York shed to, say, Holgate still be within station limits? Probably. Certainly movements on/off Grantham shed would still be in station limits, but between two block sections for/from Up trains. 

 

When one examines pictures of locos dropping down from Top Shed to pick up their respective trains at the 'Cross, they're very often lamped-up for express work, even though they're in reverse. Yet, they're beyond station limits and work between (at least two) block sections. Many, though, display the correct code, fore and aft. 

 

In my writing of captions for Irwell (most recently commenting on some Hall pictures) I've mentioned the 'anomaly' in lamps displayed by locos turning on the triangle at the Western end of Chester General. The firemen just didn't seem to bother where or what lamps were displayed, front or rear. Yet, traversing the triangle would have taken the loco beyond station limits and under the control during the movement of at least three different signal boxes. 

 

I'm sure you're right, though. If locos had to travel some distance light engine, they'd carry the appropriate code. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Tony Wright

[The Stationmaster]

Good morning Mike,

 

thanks for posting up the information, I must have read through your post about six or seven times. Of particular interest is your clarifiaction as regards class H. I have often pondered how it worked in the context of the Annesley Woodford runners. Initially, the trains were designated as class F special, meaning that in order to maintain the booked times, special instructions were issued that allowed the trains to exceed the maximum speed allowable under class F. I have noticed that as time passed more and more trains began to be running under class H, although F special was never fully superseded. I have never understood what the difference is between the two when for all intents and purposes the two types of train are on the same working. I would like to ask a couple of questions that you may be able to answer. Was class H always unfitted, and was it quite usual for fitted stock to run as unfitted given what you mention concerning the marshaling of trains. Finally, what was the maximum speed allowable under class H. Many thanks for your time, it is sad to hear of the passing of so many of your colleagues from what must have been a fascinating job.

 

As far as I can trace prior to June 1962 maximum permitted speeds for the various classes of freight trains were included in Regional Instructions so could possibly vary between Regions particularly when something ' a bit special' was being done.  For example on the Western Class C freights were permitted by the 1960 WR Instruction to run at 55mph maximum but fully fitted ballast trains from quarries to stabling yards running as Class C were limited to a maximum of 50mph.  I don't know what the ER Instruction would have said (sorry) but the WR Instruction permitted Class F trains to run at a maximum of 30 mph while Class H were restricted to a maximum of 25 mph although both were allowed to run 125 miles between locations where they were to be examined - thus reclassifying to Class H would have extended journey times in one respect but might have reduced them by omitting intermediate traffic stops.

 

In the 1950 classification Class F were permitted to run without continuous brakes with lighter loads.

 

All of this is something of a jungle but the thought you need to start with is brake power and for many years it was a critical factor in freight train classification and timetabling.  Basically any engine - within reasonable limits - could start a freight train and keep it moving on all but steep rising gradients.  But stopping such a train was a different matter, especially stopping it from a higher speed - hence more continuously braked wagons = higher classification = better stopping power in most circumstances (= higher permissible speeds where/when such things were published).  Also it needs to be seen against a background of changing vehicle technology - for example as late as 1960 wagons with grease axleboxes were not permitted in Class C or D freights on the Western (and probably elsewhere) while more wagons fitted with continuous brakes meant that more freights could run to the higher classifications.

 

There were of course other ways of dealing with braking, or rather avoiding braking, and the GC route was well known for these with its 'hurry up' Distant Signals which were actually a sort of inner distant placed beneath the outermost Home Signal which meant that if a 'box's stop signals could be cleared after an approaching train passed its Distant as caution the 'hurry u' distant could be cleared and Drivers needn't slow right down once they saw it was 'off'.  This would undoubtedly have an influence on train handling, and probably timetabling, and might have been part of the 'Special F' formula although the added braking power of a 9F and its tender was probably far more important in allowing a bit of latitude with loads and speeds.  Sorry that I can't answer with original source material relevant to the route.

 

In my experience marshalling yard staff hated dealing with fitted freight trains.  The reasons were various but centred around time ('bagging up' the vacuum pipes when trains were formed or shunted took extra time and could be dirty work;  breaking the pipes and pulling strings to release the vacuum took time when shunting vehicles off arriving trains; carrying out the continuity test also took time before departure) and the other big concern was personal safety as someone had to go in between (wagons) in order to bag up and that exposed them to risk if something moved or if other wagons were shunted against the wagons they were working under.  Hence whenever possible the number of wagons on which the continuous brake was connected up was kept to the necessary minimum and if a train could conceivably be run without continuous brakes then it would be.  

 

One of the thing which often makes me chuckle on model railways is reference or attempts to form brake fitted wagons at the head of local freight trips - very, very unlikely that anyone would go to that bother and f they did they'd probably get a rollicking from the Guard who had to shunt them out of his train at a wayside station.

 

Again using a Western source but this will give people an idea of how marshalling worked and what a freight marshalling book or circular would contain I'll use a nice easy example from late 1948 

 Train 10.55 pm Bristol West Depot - Tavistock Junction, Class C to Newton, thence Class E.  Calling at Exeter and Newton Abbot only; terminates Newton Abbot SX.  Engine power group DX  (i.e. Goup D with the additional 'X' painted above it on the cabside).  Load =67 wagons of Class 3 traffic to Newton Abbot;  =49 wagons of Class 3 from Newton Abbot

 

Formed (from engine) -

Plymouth & District Vacuum

Newton Abbot Vacuum

Exeter Vacuum

Exeter Non-Vac

Newton Abbot Non Vac

Plymouth & District Non Vac

Cornish Non Vac

 

It is easy to see what would happen at Exeter as dropping Exeter traffic would simply mean taking out a single shunt from the middle of the train.  However any traffic added would have to be segregated as per the original marshalling which would have taken time so the train was only booked to put-off traffic.

 

Equally detaching at Newton Abbot was relatively simple as it just meant a single shunt of wagons from within the train.  However on Saturday nights when it ran through to Tavistock Jcn the train also attached traffic at Newton Abbot - including anything from Exeter so that had to be shunted into the relevant segregation (although I doubt it was very much).

 

By the time the train left Newton it had lost two of its fitted portions so it was reduced to Class E for timetabling purposes as it was by that stage unlikely to have enough fitted wagons to remain as Class C.  The planned decision to reduce the class of the train would have been based on experience of normal traffic flows on the train and if, for whatever reason, it could still make Class C it would have been amended locally and advised as such by Control.

 

Incidentally it was running quite closely behind the 9.55 pm from West Depot to Penzance (which called at Newton and then Liskeard for traffic purposes) so Cornish traffic would probably have been quite light on the 10.55 pm and was most likely any surplus from this earlier train.

 

What all this doesn't do, alas, is answer Tony's original question of what type of wagons  would be found in any particular train but hopefully what it will do is give an idea of how freight train marshalling worked for traffic purposes and that in itself will give some clues as would the various connecting services into these trains which i haven't listed.  The nature of various publications and exactly what information was in them changed over the years - for example by the time I was in freight planning on the Western, from the late 1980s, we had far fewer instances of trains being marshalled according to destinations of the various wagons forming them as more and more were worked as block trains through from A t o B, or wherever, which made trailing loads for different types of loco a more prominent feature than had earlier been the case.  But by then we were facing very different complexities on the Western because we were running trains with trailing loads of up to 5,000 tonnes and one of our marshalling criteria was getting the right type of wagon couplings formed in the correct place in the train in order to avoid breakaways, and of course virtually all our trains ran fully fitted.

 

Incidentally answering Tony's point about lamping local practice varied but very often for local moves it was the case that an engine would come off shed lamped for the train it was going to work (assuming it wasn't going to reverse and a change of tail lamp wasn't involved).   In reality if the engine was going to run through a block section between signalboxes it would definitely have to carry a tail lamp but it might still carry the code for its job rather than light engine code if such was authorised or, in some cases. was the local equivalent of 'an old Spanish custom'.  Thus 'Manna' might have come off an arriving train or equally it had come round from York shed to the south end preparatory to reversing onto a train it would be working forward from York

[LNER4479]

Re light engine lamps, I think we have a classic case of what the book says versus what happens in practice. In my formative years on the railway I lost count of the number of times I was told: 'Look lad - if we tried to work exactly as per the Rule Book we'd never run any trains'. That was the polite version!

 

Provided everyone knew the ropes, 'liberal' interpretations of the rule book could prevail - until there was an incident!

 

It is possible that local working arrangements might cover certain provisions of course.

 

The other point to bear in mind was that places like York were busy places and finding a slot for a light loco to scurry through the station would be difficult enough as it was without traincrew spending time faffing about with lamps. Bit different on a modern loco where it's all at the click of a switch.

Edited January 7, 2017 by LNER4479

[Mallard60022]

The only snip of info. I could possibly supply Tony, would be about the strict adherance of use of discs and their position with SR loco's coming from 72A, down the BRSR to Exeter Central (discs on the leading end and lamp on the trailing end) and for those LE movements from Central to 72A (discs on the leading end and lamp on the trailing end). Without actually having confirmed why at this time of writing, I suspect it was because all other mainline movements, including LE to the east out of that particular area (e.g. to Sidmouth Junction) had the same headcode of two discs, central smokebox top + center buffer bracket. Trains going west of Exeter Central had different headcodes (almost always discs unless it was a train for the WR route witrh a WR loco). The SR always had to be 'different' after 1948, but I am aware discs were used on 'other railways' pre 1948. Were there any post 1948? SR Discs, as you know, showed route not class of train. Presumably the Bobby knew what was heading towards them in the dark from the box bell codes and the WTT and adjusted his signal and line position accordingly where ever possible.   Bulleid Pacifics had electric lamps fore and aft as well but as far as I'm aware they were lit as per the Disc position when running on the Southern routes. I shall have to have a look at the situation (from pics) of SR loco's running off Region (e.g. to Oxford or on the WR on the crew familiarisation Exeter Plymouth turns)

This is probably of no use as I doubt your Irwell stuff includes any BRSR?

Also if this is completely unconnecetd with the previous posts then I'll delete it.

Sincerely

Phil 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Mallard60022

[gr.king]

Re light engine lamps, I think we have a classic case of what the book says versus what happens in practice. In my formative years on the railway I lost count of the number of times I was told: 'Look lad - if we tried to work exactly as per the Rule Book we'd never run any trains'. That was the polite version!

I'm enjoying speculating on the words used in the real version.....

[glo41f]

Do not forget that disc indicators were used extensively on the GE and ex GE lines with lamps only being substituted when trains ran after dark. However they were not route indicators such as the Southern used.

I often wonder why the LM region used black headcode lamps as opposed to white painted ones. They must have been so difficult to see when running at speed past a signal box. Any ex railway type able to comment on this please?

 

Martin Long

[Killybegs]

Re discussions on photographing model railways, the photo below was taken this morning. Natural light only through two largish windows on an overcast day. 8 sec exposure at f22. The low light level means that everything is lit fairly evenly, you can, for example, see detail inside the coaling stage.

 

Relating to an earlier topic re kit building v modified RTR, the 9F has a modified Bachmann body sitting on a kit built Dave Bradwell chassis with a lot of scratch built bits in between. The wheels are original Bachmann machined and retyred to P4 by Morgan Gilbert.