Dapol Streamlined Railcar

[sp1]

Around 1960 West Bromwich station used to be visited by No. 8. We even made up a chant about it; "Diesel 8 the old crate!". This is probably unforgivably off-topic.

Interesting though...

[TheSignalEngineer]

Look a little closer at the side of each window at the front, there are two visible horns, one each side level with the bottom of the windows. Whether these were always there is debatable, but it is in GWR livery,so not a BR addition. I'll add some brass turned horns in the same positions for my No11.

Stephen

According to J H Russell the air horns on the sides of the cab were provided after complaints from PWay staff about the quiet approach of the new railcars. Pictures from around 1936 don't appear to show visible horns on the Nos. 8-16 series as built. They were possibly behind the grille under the nose. Some later pictures show horns under the nose and on the cabsides. The latter could apparently be heard about three miles away. Russell's book has a picture of No.11 in 1938 with no horns visible at the bottom but cabside horns fitted. By this time the bogie covers had also disappeared.

 

Regarding tail lamp brackets, these were definitely an afterthought. They were added after an electric tail lamp failure. Russell quotes this as happening in 1939, but pictures in his book show No.11 with a lamp bracket captioned as April 1938. Electric tail lams appear to be blanked off at first, then later removed.

 

The steps over the buffers were added to assist with reaching the lamp bracket, as were two handrails below the cab windows, but not necessarily at the same time.

 

Taking the pictures in Russell's book as a starting point I would put No.11 as pre-1938, No.12 c1938/9, No. 8 c1943, No.10 c1948/9.

As for W14W it depends on which side you look at. From photos I have seen, number to the left would be c1950-55, to the right would be c1956-60.

[TheSignalEngineer]

A few pints of burning midnight oil hasn't improved the running of my W14W. At low speed there is still a distinct judder and the lights flash in time with it. Light pressure on the flywheel cures it on the test bench, so it looks as if it is unbalanced or the armature is a poor fit in the bearings. I don't think anything is going to cure this one easily. 

[bertiedog]

A few pints of burning midnight oil hasn't improved the running of my W14W. At low speed there is still a distinct judder and the lights flash in time with it. Light pressure on the flywheel cures it on the test bench, so it looks as if it is unbalanced or the armature is a poor fit in the bearings. I don't think anything is going to cure this one easily. 

It sounds like the pickups, a bit of intermittent contact, I have not looked as yet at the way they do it, but if there are wipers on the wheel back, they need adjusting and checking the wheel backs are smooth and the wheels are true running. It cannot be very complex to solve, as the design is very straightforward, so look at the electrical path from the wheels to the DCC plug. Also check the BB is not out.

Edited November 3, 2017 by bertiedog

[TheSignalEngineer]

I cleaned the wheels and pickups without improvement so connected direct to the pickups and had it lifted in the cradle but it was still the same. B to B was slightlt tight to gauge but not out of square and enough clearance to turn freely. It ran OK at a scale speed above 30mph but at low speed the motor turned at an up even rate even when off the rails. Probably the worst runner I have ever had straight out of the box. Hopefully it was a one off.

Edited November 3, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[melmerby]

I cleaned the wheels and pickups without improvement so connected direct to the pickups and had it lifted in the cradle but it was still the same. B to B was slightlt tight to gauge but not out of square and enough clearance to turn freely. It ran OK at a scale speed above 30mph but at low speed the motor turned at an up even rate even when off the rails. Probably the worst runner I have ever had straight out of the box. Hopefully it was a one off.

I've just had a run of mine and it also is a bit jerky at some speeds.

 

I have DCC fitted it with a Lenz Silver 21+.

I found the top speed was too high. With about 14v (true RMS) on the rails it was nigh on a scale 80mph.

I reduced the max CV setting down to 200 and that gives a top speed of about 62mph

 

Starting from a standstill it is remarkably smooth, one of the best I have seen enabling a barely moving crawl,

however once it gets to about a scale 15-20mph it starts "hunting" and that continues up to about 30-35mph, above that it smooths out again up to max speed. Very strange behaviour, I wonder whether the BEMF is fighting the flywheel?

The front & rear lights are also rather odd, sometimes they are on steadily other times they flash at about 1Hz, the interior lighting is not affected. This may be down to something on the decoder so I need to check it out.

 

Keith

[swiftbeam]

I've been saying mine "Hunts" since page 16, I have 3, they all do it !!

 

It may well stop once it's had a few hours of freeing up.

 

I'll be sending 2 back on Monday as I can't be bothered to fight with 3 models, I'll just deal with the one keeper, see how it goes long term.

Edited November 4, 2017 by swiftbeam

[swiftbeam]

Hi,

 

Yes, my model does not come with extra lamps, lamp irons or horns. There is no hole in the body to take a lamp iron, but it does come with holes to take horns and Dapol say it is meant to have horns.

 

However, my model will be going back as now I have had time to really watch the model running, it pulses! I have tried it on DCC and DC and I have cleaned all the wheels and contacts with IPA. The motor runs smooth as does the gears, but the model pulses while in motion. It doesn't stop or jurk, it gently and smoothly kangaroo's down the track, It's only slight, but you can hear the motor rev up and slow down. The faster you go, the more it does it. I've never had a model that does this when everything is perfectly clean.

 

P.S, My controllers are Gaugemaster D for DC testing and Sin-na-Trak for DCC running. Track is perfectly clean and all other models are running as they should.

 

P.P.S, As I sit here looking at my RB in it's postage box ready to be sent back tomorrow (by that time they have sold out) I wonder if it's worth disconnecting the motor and hard wiring it to a basic hard wire Zimo decoder. Just forget all the standard lights and PCB?? I'm not going to do it, unless the exchanged model shows the same running quality, but hard wiring would at least get it running consistently?

[bertiedog]

If your certain the wheels and pickups are 100%....then it must be the universal joints that are tight in some way, plastic flash or simply the motor needs easing away from the joints to leave a little slack in the drive chain.

 

Feedback controllers do not generally fight flywheel operation, but could affect DCC chipped operation  as the feed back operates at a higher pace than most DC controllers. Any effect would not produce oscillation, as both the flywheel and the feedback are cross connected and aid each other. This is not to say it cannot happen, it maybe occurring at a resonant frequency.

Far more likely that it is the shaft and joints.

 

However for it to happen on three units is implausible, so it may in that case the controller that is to blame.

Try another controller, or add a second flywheel, if it really seems to be the cause.

 

If it is the controller, then capacitors could be added to dampen the effect.

[bertiedog]

Just had an email in from a friend who is an expert on DCC in the States, and it must be the DCC system at the base of it, as slow running and higher speeds are OK. Shift the CV settings for acceleration and feedback, and the problem should vanish. It may need a lot of experiment to find the best settings, or even shut off the feedback in the worst case.

Makers cannot cater for all decoders fitted later, but if supplied chipped they must over full technical  support, so contact Dapol first, before returning pre chipped unit.

This sort of nuisance with DCC is why I backed out of using it.

If your on DC then it must be tight U/J's..........

Stephen.

[vulcanbomber]

Why not test it on DC first to see if the problem is still there

[melmerby]

Why not test it on DC first to see if the problem is still there

Unless you have some DC track it can run around this is a no go if you are DCC.

A rolling road wont give the same results as it is not dynamically loaded.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Just had an email in from a friend who is an expert on DCC in the States, and it must be the DCC system at the base of it, as slow running and higher speeds are OK. Shift the CV settings for acceleration and feedback, and the problem should vanish. It may need a lot of experiment to find the best settings, or even shut off the feedback in the worst case.

Makers cannot cater for all decoders fitted later, but if supplied chipped they must over full technical  support, so contact Dapol first, before returning pre chipped unit.

This sort of nuisance with DCC is why I backed out of using it.

If your on DC then it must be tight U/J's..........

Stephen.

Lenz 100 System, Lenz Silver + decoders.

Acc & Dec both on 0 or on  5 - no difference.

Apart from some rubbish quality old locos (Lima, Mainline & Triang-Hornby) this combo works first time, every time. (but even usually with those as well!)

If it doesn't work with a top quality decoder AFAIAC there's something wrong on the Railcar.

 

Keith

[swiftbeam]

All three of mine do it on DC and DCC!
I check all my models on DC first as a matter of course.
If anybody read my post, I even say what controllers I use.

Edited November 4, 2017 by swiftbeam

[swiftbeam]

On the model I have chosen to keep, I have cut the pickup and motor wires (bye bye guarantee) and will be fitting an Zimo MX600 decoder directly. I will have no lighting at all, but it will prove the basic drive train devoid of Dapol electrics! The Zimo 21 pin I have been using is perfect as it has been swapped in and out of a few locos this week and performs 100%.

 

The model I chose to keep actually ran very well on DC with no hunting that I could see, but in DCC it does hunt a little. The other two hunt in DC and even more so in DCC. In all models the drive shaft and UJ’s are free to move.

 

I will post my findings with hard wired MX600 in a hour or so.

Edited November 4, 2017 by swiftbeam

[JSpencer]

All three of mine do it on DC and DCC!

I check all my models on DC first as a matter of course.

If anybody read my post, I even say what controllers I use.

The class 73 can do the same, and this is due to the bearing pickups. Does the banana have the same? If so, I cleaned up my class 73 with meths (cooking alcohol).

[swiftbeam]

I will check that as well :-)

It’ll be interesting to see what a simple hard wire does when I get back home in a mo.

[swiftbeam]

EDIT !!!!!!

 

If you read the post that was here, forget it !!!

 

I'm still getting the hunting, just at a lower speed !!!

 

I'm now giving up, I'm going to put it all back together as it was and get rid !!

 

Fedup  now!

 

I'll have no Railcars in the new few days, so I'm out of here.

 

Sorry

Edited November 4, 2017 by swiftbeam

[bertiedog]

Sounds like the radio interference items on the DCC socket are odd values and are causing a reaction with the feedback signal. DCC does not require any suppression, as the chip does it all for you.

Glad to hear the hard wiring works the trick.

Stephen .

[melmerby]

Sounds like the radio interference items on the DCC socket are odd values and are causing a reaction with the feedback signal. DCC does not require any suppression, as the chip does it all for you.

Glad to hear the hard wiring works the trick.

Stephen .

Quote: "I'm still getting the hunting, just at a lower speed !!!"

 

Seems it didn't!

 

Keith

[railcar1]

EDIT !!!!!!

 

If you read the post that was here, forget it !!!

 

I'm still getting the hunting, just at a lower speed !!!

 

I'm now giving up, I'm going to put it all back together as it was and get rid !!

 

Fedup  now!

 

I'll have no Railcars in the new few days, so I'm out of here.

 

Sorry

[railcar1]

Sorry to read about your tribulations.Have the same problems myself.Sent the railcar back for replacement.I have tried it on three different dc controllers but still the same issues.

[swiftbeam]

As a total last resort, maybe I should buy a 1628 Mashima?
I know they work!
I really like my Railcar, so it would be sad to get rid of all of them.
Two are definitely going back for a refund!

At £125 for a basic loco with no real detail, it shouldn’t be this hard to just make it run smooth. Don’t forget I have 3 and they are all the same, DC and DCC!

Edited November 5, 2017 by swiftbeam

[railcar1]

That would assume it's the motor to blame and not the geartrain.

[swiftbeam]

OK, I have now stripped out the driven bogie back down to component parts and scrubbed it all in white spirit with a tooth brush. I put a spot of light clock oil on the cogs and worm bearings only. YES IT DOES HAVE WHEEL BEARING PICKUPS, but the trailer is wiper on the wheel back. The bogie was put back and ran smoothly.

 

I've also pulled the motor apart, it's a 5 pole skew wound!

 

NOTHING, still exactly the same, hunting!

 

I did however remove my hard wired decoder so we are back on the Dapol PCB. I hope that doesn't prove to be a problem :-/ There is only so much I can take of cutting and re cutting tiny wires!

 

Still, on the plus side, this will be one model Dapol will never warranty for me, so that's a plus for them !!!!!!

 

1628 Mashima ordered !

Edited November 4, 2017 by swiftbeam