David Todd Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Gault Clay Don't forget, Adrian, that you are now building out across the gault clay*. Treacherous stuff, Wanders about all over the countryside of its own accord. Note the paucity of any buildings at foot of the Downs where the narrow band of clay runs. No-one who knew the ground built anything on it. So where did they put the railway? I suppose the land was cheap because no-one wanted it. It always caused problems with bank slips. Even when the line was built they had to buy extra land so that cutting and embankment sides could be made more gentle. Once you start building towards Chevening, Combe Bank cutting was especially bad. Photographs show quite a depth of ballast there to counteract the poor drainage. I don't know if any parts of the line were actually piled, but they held some sheet steel piling in reserve in case of emergency on the branch. If you look at late pictures of Chevening you'll notice substantial drains there. Now this may raise a question in your mind - after all, what did they do with the trackbed when the line closed? If you look at that section of the M25 you will see that it, too, has very gentle cutting and embankment sides, and none are particularly high. And when they came to widen it to four lanes, they couldn't just tack extra lanes onto the edges without upsetting the fragile geology, so they had to convert the hard shoulders into running lanes instead. But you try to find that reason admitted anywhere - it might have made the road builders look incompetent. I would love to know how many problems the gault does cause for the M25. It runs along it all the way from Junction 7 to Junction 5, and the whole length of the M26 is on it. *http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html and Go to Location "Brasted" Nice one Ron........ KENT GEOLOGISTS' GROUP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold westerhamstation Posted November 2, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) Hello all, I am never going on holiday again without taking a laptop with me, this is going to take me forever to catch up with all the people I follow. I go on this page and find Tony Robinson and his long haired hippy mates have been doing some kind of digging about in Gault Clay, I only put up the potters wheel interlude to keep you from getting bored, I didn't expect in depth articles of where the raw material came from, and how the whole of the M25 will end up in the sea, I should have know better than to leave you lot on your own. I will reply in due course to you all after taking legal advice. All the best Adrian. (ps: I have brought you all back sticks of rock, with gault clay written all the way through). Edited November 2, 2014 by westerhamstation 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Hello all, I am never going on holiday again without taken a laptop, this is going to take me forever to catch up with all the people I follow. I go on this page and find Tony Robinson and his long haired hippy mates have been doing some kind of digging about in Gault Clay, I only put up the potters wheel interlude to keep you from getting bored, I didn't expect in depth articles of where the raw material came from, and how the whole of the M25 will end up in the sea, I should have know better than to leave you lot on your own. I will reply in due course to you all after taking legal advise. All the best Adrian. (ps: I have brought you all back sticks of rock, with gault clay written all the way through). You must, take,every day, what your GP has prescribed for you, otherwise, it will cause , laptops ses, in your daily health regime . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold westerhamstation Posted November 2, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 2, 2014 You must, take,every day, what your GP has prescribed for you, otherwise, it will cause , laptops ses, in your daily health regime . Sorry Matron, it was all the exitement of being back in good old Blighty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium lash Posted November 2, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 2, 2014 I haven't posted for ages but how lovely to come back and find David and Adrian indulging in Carry On Up The Branch Line jokes .... not to mention Westerham looking more as brilliant as always . Ooooh Sid is this what you meant by a push pull working Um bad grammar as well as bad jokes ... sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronstrutt Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I haven't posted for ages but how lovely to come back and find David and Adrian indulging in Carry On Up The Branch Line jokes .... not to mention Westerham looking more as brilliant as always . Ooooh Sid is this what you meant by a push pull working Um bad grammar as well as bad jokes ... sorry Not just bad grammar. On the Southern it was always Pull-Push Working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Would that explain why ............. Not just bad grammar. On the Southern it was always Pull-Push Working. .................. Locos are referred to as "She" ........................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold westerhamstation Posted November 3, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2014 To add a couple of further questions to this, which maybe Peter Reed could answer if you see him, Glynn: The Westerham p-p train generally operated with the locomotive at the country end. This was, of course, because of the way the set was oriented - driving position at the London end - but why? This meant that when the stock was left at Westerham overnight, the engine had to run round before it could deal with the freight and again in the morning. On the odd occasions when the engine was at the London end, how did this arise? I've never seen any pictures showing the Westerham engine working bunker first - ie chimney first onto the stock. Did this ever happen? It seems curious that the freight did a shuttle from Westerham to Brasted and back, requiring a propelling move - why didn't they simply drop the Brasted wagon off and pick up any empties as part of the evening up working. Hi Ron/Andy/John. It would seem that just by removing that point at Brasted Station goods yard, it caused all the complications in shunting, as wagons could not be dropped off at Brasted on route to Westerham, as the loco would not be able to run around the wagons. So who thought that would be a good idea,and for what reason. The plans below show the original layout with the point in situ. A similar thing happened at Westerham with the removal of the point by the loading dock, but without the consequences that it caused at Brasted. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronstrutt Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) Hi Ron/Andy/John. It would seem that just by removing that point at Brasted Station goods yard, it caused all the complications in shunting, as wagons could not be dropped off at Brasted on route to Westerham, as the loco would not be able to run around the wagons. So who thought that would be a good idea,and for what reason. The plans below show the original layout with the point in situ. A similar thing happened at Westerham with the removal of the point by the loading dock, but without the consequences that it caused at Brasted. I can think of two reasons. One is that extra siding space was needed and, given the constrictions of the site, the only way of providing it was by removing the loop points and replacing them by plain track. In effect, this created two long sidings out of one short siding and an otherwise-unusable loop. The other reason is that, knowing how readily these things happen, someone ran an engine through the points and smashed the switches and it wasn't worth spending out on a new set, It shouldn't have been a problem. Most small goods yards didn't have a loop and were served by trains travelling in the appropriate direction to reverse into the yard, which in the case of Brasted would have been up freights. The evening up freight would have left Westerham with the Brasted wagon(s) at the rear. On arrival at Brasted, the guard's van is dropped off in the platform and the rest of the train proceeds over the yard points. It then reverses into the yard, drops off full wagons, picks up empties, and returns to the running line. After changing the yard points, the train reverses to pick up the guard's van and continues on its way to Dunton Green. Simples! None of this unnecessary propelling back to Westerham. Maybe there was no-one at Brasted in the evening to say where the incoming wagons were to be placed, maybe adding the Brasted drop-off to the evening freight would have made the late turn shift too long, or maybe there was some subtle reason that I've missed. Edited November 3, 2014 by ronstrutt 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 The future, for Brasted was looking pretty good, before the arrival, of the M25...... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold westerhamstation Posted November 3, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2014 I can think of two reasons. One is that extra siding space was needed and, given the constrictions of the site, the only way of providing it was by removing the loop points and replacing them by plain track. In effect, this created two long sidings out of one short siding and an otherwise-unusable loop. The other reason is that, knowing how readily these things happen, someone ran an engine through the points and smashed the switches and it wasn't worth spending out on a new set, It shouldn't have been a problem. Most small goods yards didn't have a loop and were served by trains travelling in the appropriate direction to reverse into the yard, which in the case of Brasted would have been up freights. The evening up freight would have left Westerham with the Brasted wagon(s) at the rear. On arrival at Brasted, the guard's van is dropped off in the platform and the rest of the train proceeds over the yard points. It then reverses into the yard, drops off full wagons, picks up empties, and returns to the running line. After changing the yard points, the train reverses to pick up the guard's van and continues on its way to Dunton Green. Simples! None of this unnecessary propelling back to Westerham. Maybe there was no-one at Brasted in the evening to say where the incoming wagons were to be placed, maybe adding the Brasted drop-off to the evening freight would have made the late turn shift too long, or maybe there was some subtle reason that I've missed. Hi Ron, as usual I ask a stupid question, and get a very full and sensible answer from yourself, many thanks for that. It helps me to understand more of how the railway operated and the reasoning behind some of their actions. All the best Adrian. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronstrutt Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Hi Ron, as usual I ask a stupid question, and get a very full and sensible answer from yourself, many thanks for that. It helps me to understand more of how the railway operated and the reasoning behind some of their actions. All the best Adrian. By no means a stupid question. The way that Brasted yard was worked, with a morning trip out from Westerham, was decidedly odd. It was obviously felt to be necessary enough for special instructions to be issued for it. I, too, am mystified by it, which is why I'm hoping that we can find the real explanation from someone who actually worked on the line. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold westerhamstation Posted November 4, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2014 Popped over to Brasted this morning, and found my drum of cable that I have been waiting for. So as Bodgit and Scarper (multi trade operatives) weren't busy doing anything useful, and I don't know why (you think that I would have learned after the door episode) I asked them to give me a hand with it. So with out further ado they raced off (shuffled) to get some equipment out of storage. Well after much huffing and puffing they managed to get the drum of cable over to the site, only to find that an official from the electrical offices of the SR was waiting for them, wanting to see their certificates of competence in electrical wiring. I tried to merge into the background along side the pantomime horse who had arrived on the scene, this isn't going to go well I thought. 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Popped over to Brasted this morning, and found my drum of cable that I have been waiting for. So as Bodgit and Scarper (multi trade operatives) weren't busy doing anything useful, and I don't know why (you think that I would have learned after the door episode) I asked them to give me a hand with it. So with out further ado they raced off (shuffled) to get some equipment out of storage. Well after much huffing and puffing they managed to get the drum of cable over to the site, only to find that an official from the electrical offices of the SR was waiting for them, wanting to see their certificates of competence in electrical wiring. I tried to merge into the background along side the pantomime horse who had arrived on the scene, this isn't going to go well I thought. They did not start posting on this forum, till gone 10, this morning, did wonder,if they had a lie in. Now I see what they were up to. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Strathwood Posted November 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2014 Popped over to Brasted this morning, and found my drum of cable that I have been waiting for. So as Bodgit and Scarper (multi trade operatives) weren't busy doing anything useful, and I don't know why (you think that I would have learned after the door episode) I asked them to give me a hand with it. So with out further ado they raced off (shuffled) to get some equipment out of storage. Well after much huffing and puffing they managed to get the drum of cable over to the site, only to find that an official from the electrical offices of the SR was waiting for them, wanting to see their certificates of competence in electrical wiring. I tried to merge into the background along side the pantomime horse who had arrived on the scene, this isn't going to go well I thought. With all that glue about the place it looks like someone is going to come to a sticky end. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold westerhamstation Posted November 5, 2014 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1961/oct/19/railways-dunton-green-westerham-line The above link is a response from Members of Parliment to the proposed closure of the Westerham Valley Railway, and the replies that they got from the then Minister of Transport Ernest Marples. Alfred Ernest Marples, Baron Marples PC (9 December 1907 – 6 July 1978) was a British Conservative politician who served as Postmaster General and Minister of Transport. As postmaster general he saw the introduction of Premium Bond scheme and of postcodes. His period as Minister of Transport was controversial. He both oversaw the significant construction, he opened the first section of the M1 motorway, and the closure of a considerable portion of the national railway network with the Beeching cuts. His involvement in the road construction business Marples Ridgway, of which he had been managing director, was one of repeated concern regarding possible conflict of interest. In later life he was elevated to the peerage before fleeing to Monaco at very short notice to avoid prosecution for tax fraud. It makes interesting reading. All the best Adrian. Edited November 5, 2014 by westerhamstation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Eerrr ....... did someone mention a Motorway being built somewhere in the vicinity of the line ...................... ........................... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted November 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2014 Hi Adrian, thanks for posting the Hansard link, it makes fascinating reading, and particularly to read Marples' own words. It's interesting that he is quoted as being concerned about road congestion, and yet discounts it as a reason for continuing to support rail travel. One gets the feeling that (whether you subscribe to the conspiracy theories or not) his own conviction was that road transport was the future, and this coloured his perceptions and decisions, to the detriment of Westerham, and many other branch lines. Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted November 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Eerrr ....... did someone mention a Motorway being built somewhere in the vicinity of the line ...................... ........................... I don't think Marples had any input into the M25, did he? Although he may have had a hand in the London Orbital route which was its precursor. Edited November 5, 2014 by acg_mr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Todd Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1961/oct/19/railways-dunton-green-westerham-line The above link is a response from Members of Parliment to the proposed closure of the Westerham Valley Railway, and the replies that they got from the then Minister of Transport Ernest Marples. Alfred Ernest Marples, Baron Marples PC (9 December 1907 – 6 July 1978) was a British Conservative politician who served as Postmaster General and Minister of Transport. As postmaster general he saw the introduction of Premium Bond scheme and of postcodes. His period as Minister of Transport was controversial. He both oversaw the significant construction, he opened the first section of the M1 motorway, and the closure of a considerable portion of the national railway network with the Beeching cuts. His involvement in the road construction business Marples Ridgway, of which he had been managing director, was one of repeated concern regarding possible conflict of interest. In later life he was elevated to the peerage before fleeing to Monaco at very short notice to avoid prosecution for tax fraud. It makes interesting reading. All the best Adrian. For a moment, I thought you had got, out the . Ouija Boards | eBay 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcredfer Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm not sure about the timing of the build [which perchance floated feathers into certain roosting spots] ........ but given how long the planning stages were for projects of this size ..... I don't think Marples had any input into the M25, did he? Although he may have had a hand in the London Orbital route which was its precursor. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david51 Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 For a moment, I thought you had got, out the . Ouija Boards | eBay It should be remembered that Tom Frazer and Barbara Castle closed more lines than Marples.Harold Wilson went back on his pledge to halt major railway closures.they authorised the closure of theSomerset and Dorset ,the Great Central and the Waverley route.Having said that it was Barbara Castle who introduced the concept of the social railway which kept many lines alive. Personally I think The Westerham Branch was doomed .the competing bus service was quicker and went to Sevenoaks via Sevenoaks station which had a much better service to London than Dunton Green. If the branch had been electrified with through service to London maybe we could still travel to Westerham by train. Your layout revives great memories for me as a teenager living nearby in the line's last years 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronstrutt Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 With all the experience you've gained in modelling techniques, you should find this a doddle, Adrian. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jidenco-Models-SECR-SR-BR-Wainwright-H-Class-0-4-4T-kit-/181577181652?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item2a46d7e9d4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronstrutt Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 I'm not sure about the timing of the build [which perchance floated feathers into certain roosting spots] ........ but given how long the planning stages were for projects of this size ..... The first positive plans for a South Orbital Road were in 1937 but the local authorities had been talking about an East-West road from Reigate to Maidstone since the 1920s. It was then intended to be 80 feet wide, with the building line set back 40 feet on each side. The 1937 proposal was for a 'parkway' road which was designed for a pleasant motor through the countryside. The Westerham section finally opened in 1979-80. You can't hurry these things, I'll have you know. For the full story of the South Orbital Road, see my forthcoming and much-vaunted book. It'll be Chapter 85 or so, the way things are going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronstrutt Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 Oops! Meant to post this map - it shows the Westerham area more clearly. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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