Westerham, + Weald. Tarmac surface for the platform

[westerhamstation]

Yes. The pull-push set was left at Westerham overnight and the engine, rather than working back light, took the branch freight. In the morning the arriving engine picked up the branch freight from Dunton Green yard. I haven't been able to work out how the branch wagons were left at Dunton Green.

 

The only disadvantage of this arrangement was that a guard was needed for the morning trip, riding back from Westerham on the cushions, presumably, and another for the evening trip, going down on the last pull-push service.

Hi Ron, that answers a lot questions, and has made me think about how I was going to lay out the connecting boards from Westerham to Brasted. I will stick with the prototype and not have a passing loop/fiddle yard, but just a single connecting line, so that I can operate it as the line was. all the best Adrian.

[David Todd]

Moorings A.

 

Unsure if you have this,amogst you history file.................

 

                                        please sent cheque £ to the normal, safe house address.............

 

http://www.brasted.co.uk/History/Brastedrailwaystation.htm

[westerhamstation]

At last the golden spike has been driven in, and it is now possible to push a carriage from Westerham to Brasted    !!!. Next will be the wiring so that I can actually run a loco between the two stations. I still need to cut the track on the lift up section and get some bolts to secure it when in use, some pictures of progress so far.

 

[nest]

Fantastic to finally see this happening Adrian, really well done

 

Soon there'll even be proper train playing!! haha

 

Nestor

[David Todd]

From this................in Kent.........

 

 

 

To this........., in Kent.................Adrian's vision

Edited October 22, 2014 by David Todd

[Bulleidnutter]

Urgh! Whats that horrible foreign coach doing on a Southern branch line!

 

Fantastic to see such progress. Nothing quite like the feeling of completing a project.

[westerhamstation]

Urgh! Whats that horrible foreign coach doing on a Southern branch line!

 

Fantastic to see such progress. Nothing quite like the feeling of completing a project.

Hi bulliednutter, that's not a coach, it's the tunnel boring machine and will eventually be buried.   all the best Adrian.

[Strathwood]

At last the golden spike has been driven in, and it is now possible to push a carriage from Westerham to Brasted    !!!. Next will be the wiring so that I can actually run a loco between the two stations. I still need to cut the track on the lift up section and get some bolts to secure it when in use, some pictures of progress so far.

Oh NO does this mean that the dreaded Western Region now have control of this Kent branchline? Look what the beggars did to the southern stretches of the Somerset & Dorset and to the Withered Arm...

 

Their Panniers saw off the R1s at Folkestone and some of the M7s at Nine Elms, fingers crossed this is not the thin end of the Swindon wedge.

 

Kevin

[ronstrutt]

Oh NO does this mean that the dreaded Western Region now have control of this Kent branchline? Look what the beggars did to the southern stretches of the Somerset & Dorset and to the Withered Arm...

 

Their Panniers saw off the R1s at Folkestone and some of the M7s at Nine Elms, fingers crossed this is not the thin end of the Swindon wedge.

 

Kevin

 

Sadly, the Southern was as guilty of doing for the Somerset & Dorset as anyone else and it was the LM Region that asked for the Pines Express to be rerouted, as the attached document shows (found while looking for Westerham papers at the National Archives).

 

WR panniers also replaced the Beattie Well Tanks at Wadebridge.

 

Incidentally, the Kentish Heights Railtour of 10th November 1957 was originally intended to bring City Of Truro to Westerham but it failed on the day and O1 no 31064 covered all or most of the route. (Photograph needs a lot of TLC - note the branch train at the far end of the loop.)

http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/50s/571110_1.html

Edited October 23, 2014 by ronstrutt

[westerhamstation]

Hi Ron, yet another useful piece of information and pictures, many thanks for sharing. It's amazing what actually did run on such a small branch line. All the best Adrian.

[ronstrutt]

By the way, note the date of the Somerset & Dorset memo. This was almost a year before the Beeching report was published!

[westerhamstation]

Normal service will resume in a week, so here is a brief interlude that some of you of a certain age will remember. All the best Adrian.

[Andrew P]

Adrian, if you double track the curve you could use it to pass trains?

 

(on Edit) why do you need a fiddle yard? 

 

I thought the service at Westerham  amounted to nothing more than the push/pull passenger and a pick up goods?

 

I don't understand Andy P's reference to Berrow, as I recall it Mac had a fiddle yard.

Hi Adrian and John, I was thinking that Westerham was fed from a fiddle yard, and now with Brasted it will be fed from another terminus, but what about the rest of the world? where would the original trains feed in and out from, with Berrow they came from the rest of the world to Berrow and then back to East ?  so two terminus's fed from the rest of the world.

[sp1]

Hi Adrian and John, I was thinking that Westerham was fed from a fiddle yard, and now with Brasted it will be fed from another terminus, but what about the rest of the world? where would the original trains feed in and out from, with Berrow they came from the rest of the world to Berrow and then back to East ?  so two terminus's fed from the rest of the world.

Terminus's ......termini??

I think one of them is where grass grows.....

Hahaha

.... I'm even laughing like you now Andy

....next you'll have me believing proper locos aren't green?

[ronstrutt]

Hi Ron, that answers a lot questions, and has made me think about how I was going to lay out the connecting boards from Westerham to Brasted. I will stick with the prototype and not have a passing loop/fiddle yard, but just a single connecting line, so that I can operate it as the line was. all the best Adrian.

 

To add a couple of further questions to this, which maybe Peter Reed could answer if you see him, Glynn:

• The Westerham p-p train generally operated with the locomotive at the country end. This was, of course, because of the way the set was oriented - driving position at the London end - but why? This meant that when the stock was left at Westerham overnight, the engine had to run round before it could deal with the freight and again in the morning.
• On the odd occasions when the engine was at the London end, how did this arise?
• I've never seen any pictures showing the Westerham engine working bunker first - ie chimney first onto the stock. Did this ever happen?
• It seems curious that the freight did a shuttle from Westerham to Brasted and back, requiring a propelling move - why didn't they simply drop the Brasted wagon off and pick up any empties as part of the evening up working.

[Glynn Huggins]

Hi Ron,

I will ask Peter when I seen him next and post his answers.

[john flann]

As I recall when operating Berrow with Mac Pyrke, trains came into Berrow from the 'real world' and returned, and there was the service between East Brent and Berrow.

 

This I think, whilst part of his sequence of operations was separate from the other traffic.

 

It's a long while now since the 1970's when I did this. Maybe someone has an early RM when Berrow was first featured and I'm sure Mac would have then spelled out his operating methods.

[ronstrutt]

Hi Ron,

I will ask Peter when I seen him next and post his answers.

 

Another question for Peter, if you would Glynn.

 

I've come across some costs for the Westerham line that talk about branch light engine mileage to and from Hither Green. What was that about? Was it to do with the branch freight? I'd have expected that to be dropped off at Dunton Green from a Sevenoaks line pick-up freight rather than having a dedicated working to/from Hither Green.

 

Or is that the aroma of cooking books that assails my nostrils?

Edited October 27, 2014 by ronstrutt

[Andrew P]

As I recall when operating Berrow with Mac Pyrke, trains came into Berrow from the 'real world' and returned, and there was the service between East Brent and Berrow.

 

This I think, whilst part of his sequence of operations was separate from the other traffic.

 

It's a long while now since the 1970's when I did this. Maybe someone has an early RM when Berrow was first featured and I'm sure Mac would have then spelled out his operating methods.

Hi John, I have all The Berrow reproductions / reprints from RM over the years including the timetable, I will have to dig it out and have another read.

[ronstrutt]

Gault Clay

 

Don't forget, Adrian, that you are now building out across the gault clay*.

 

Treacherous stuff, Wanders about all over the countryside of its own accord. Note the paucity of any buildings at foot of the Downs where the narrow band of clay runs. No-one who knew the ground built anything on it. So where did they put the railway? I suppose the land was cheap because no-one wanted it.

 

It always caused problems with bank slips. Even when the line was built they had to buy extra land so that cutting and embankment sides could be made more gentle. Once you start building towards Chevening, Combe Bank cutting was especially bad. Photographs show quite a depth of ballast there to counteract the poor drainage. I don't know if any parts of the line were actually piled, but they held some sheet steel piling in reserve in case of emergency on the branch. If you look at late pictures of Chevening you'll notice substantial drains there.

 

Now this may raise a question in your mind - after all, what did they do with the trackbed when the line closed?

 

If you look at that section of the M25 you will see that it, too, has very gentle cutting and embankment sides, and none are particularly high. And when they came to widen it to four lanes, they couldn't just tack extra lanes onto the edges without upsetting the fragile geology, so they had to convert the hard shoulders into running lanes instead. But you try to find that reason admitted anywhere - it might have made the road builders look incompetent. I would love to know how many problems the gault does cause for the M25. It runs along it all the way from Junction 7 to Junction 5, and the whole length of the M26 is on it.

 

*http://mapapps.bgs.ac.uk/geologyofbritain/home.html and Go to Location "Brasted"

[jcredfer]

Blimey Ron   .........

 

Lies ...................  Dammnd Lies  .........................    and politicians!  .........     ........

 

I just googled the Junction 5-7  and the first post came up with  .....

 

The section of the M25 between junctions 5 and 6/7 is now running as a "smart" motorway. The hard shoulder has been converted for use as a permanent traffic lane. This, together with the introduction of  enhanced on-road technology  to manage traffic flow will improve the reliability of journey times, providing a boost for businesses and the wider economy.

The new infrastructure and technology that has been added between junctions 5 and 7 includes:

9 gantries that span both carriageways
10 refuge areas
13 emergency telephones
88 overhead signals
33 verge mounted signs
38 CCTV cameras.
All lane running

As part of our smart motorway initiative, the new road layout for this section of the M25 will involve “all lane running”. This means the hard shoulder is permanently converted into a traffic lane on these sections of the motorway.

Instead of the hard shoulder you will see regularly spaced emergency refuge areas, each one with an emergency telephone. We have also installed CCTV cameras to help us spot incidents and deal with them as fast as possible. Put your hazard lights on to help us.

If you can’t make it to an emergency refuge, the smart motorway technology lets us close any lane by displaying a red “X” on the gantries, moving traffic away from the incident and keeping it clear for emergency vehicles. Do not drive in a lane with a red “X” displayed over it.

 

 

.....     Don't you just love 'em  ..........   such silky words too  .......  

 

....    you may well not - make it anywhere, full stop   .........   

 

 

 

[ronstrutt]

 

What an amazing quote! Talk about Spin - squeezing every last ounce out of a thoroughly bad job. All-lane running is, of course, a total disaster - even the police have massive qualms about it and tried to get it stopped - but, apart from sticking with three congested lanes, there really was no alternative. The risk was that an added-on nearside lane of a widened motorway would have gone wandering off across the countryside on its own without a lot of expensive preventative measures or reconstructing most of that stretch.

 

There's a very good reason why both the (so-called) Pilgrim's Way and the North Downs Trackway are where they are - on the chalk. Our medieval ancestors knew a thing or two.

 

The M25 should have been built up there too, but there would probably have been an outcry  Using the old railway formation (i) was expected to save a bit of money and (ii) only upset railway enthusiasts. And, of course, road civil engineers of the 1970s were invincible and could overcome any problems, even more so than their Victorian predecessors - anyone for a railway line along the South Devon shoreline?

 

I came across this when researching for my book about the construction of the line and the problems they had. I already knew about the Gault Clay from my time on the railway - the Redhill-Guildford line crosses it in the Buckland area and is gradually sliding down the slope. As well as a curious leaning signal, there was a vicious kink where part of the track was held in place by a level crossing but the rest of it was free to move. You learned to hang on tightly on that stretch if you were standing up. That led me to wonder about the M25 and I sussed out what must have happened, but I couldn't find anything about it - nothing, not a whisper, nil, zilch. I began to think I was imagining things. Then, a few months ago, I met John Warde, the local Lord of the Manor and descendant of the Westerham Valley Railway promoter and director, Col. Charles Warde, and he confirmed my suspicions.

 

I am almost tempted to do a Freedom of Information request just to embarrass the powers-that-be.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ronstrutt

[jcredfer]

An ex-girlfriend of mine eventually married a Civil Engineer - frankly a fortunate decision on her part  .......    

 

He was involved in planning and getting the M5 across the Somerset Shallows Levels. The idea was, apparently, to bury bundles of Faggots [rather like massive bundles of sticks.] on their sides.  I did see a few when passing by on the A38, and they were massive.  The M5 was then built on top of the layers of bundles.  The idea being that the sticks would semi float, as the water table is a touch high round there and support the road.  Apparently they did just that  ...   float, I mean - sideways and poped up again, in the fields 100 yds away from the road .......   last I heard, at the time, was they were actively considering other ways to proceed  .....  

 

The M5 is still there - so I guess that they must have cracked it.  ...     

[Jaz]

Blimey Ron   .........

 

Lies ...................  Dammnd Lies  .........................    and politicians!  .........     ........

 

I just googled the Junction 5-7  and the first post came up with  .....

 

 

.....     Don't you just love 'em  ..........   such silky words too  .......  

 

....    you may well not - make it anywhere, full stop   .........   

having spent a lot of hours on the countries biggest car park, I found it useful to not have to use it at peak hours, if the the petrol levels in my tank were low!!!!!!!!

[Sweven]

An ex-girlfriend of mine eventually married a Civil Engineer - frankly a fortunate decision on her part  .......    

 

He was involved in planning and getting the M5 across the Somerset Shallows Levels. The idea was, apparently, to bury bundles of Faggots [rather like massive bundles of sticks.] on their sides.  I did see a few when passing by on the A38, and they were massive.  The M5 was then built on top of the layers of bundles.  The idea being that the sticks would semi float, as the water table is a touch high round there and support the road.  Apparently they did just that  ...   float, I mean - sideways and poped up again, in the fields 100 yds away from the road .......   last I heard, at the time, was they were actively considering other ways to proceed  .....  

 

The M5 is still there - so I guess that they must have cracked it.  ...     

 

That reminds me that George Stephenson built the original Manchester to Liverpool railway across the 4 mile "bottomless" peat bog of Chat Moss in the same way, by floating it on a bed of bed of larch trunks and branches, covered with brushwood, topped with a layer of earth and stones. The railway is still running across the same route today.