Heljan LNER Tango 2-8-0

[Horsetan]

I wonder if he was given a Tango that somebody else had returned?

[BrushVeteran]

Normally i read this forum in the early afternoon here in Canada so by posting now in the morning someone may have an answer when I read later.  Well I got my Tango yesterday!  I am not a happy camper and wish, after following this thread, had cancelled my order.

First, thanks to the folks who said watch out for bits in the box.  Two bits actually under the fold in sections of the main box, so damage must have occurred at the factory.  Put it on the track and it ran like cXXp especially at slow speeds where there is a distinct jerk.  Checked the wheels, all of them very tight with just about no side movement in the rear two sets  Took it apart, there are two plates that hold the wheels in place loosened them and got more sidewards movement in the front two axles.  Back axles still very stiff.  So took it all apart to clean out any grease and found what look like two curved plastic shims about 0.010" thick in both the back axles.  Took them out, now have play and runs better but louder.  However, the jerk is still there (in both directions) even after 2 hours of test running.  So far I cannot find a reason.  It looks like it might be associated with the valve gear in that it does seem to stick at a particular point although it could also be the con rod position.  I don't remember seeing anything on this thread and a search doesn't show anything but!  Has anyone else had this problem.  

Note, I live in Canada so returning to the Liverpool supplier is not really an option.  I do know though that I will not buy another loco from the UK except from a retailer who does test run.  

Hi Theakerr

 

I've sent you a PM which will hopefully sort your Tango problem out and make you happy.

[adb968008]

.

Edited May 9, 2021 by adb968008

[jonny777]

I have just tried my 63982 out on my fathers loft layout. Given that he does very little with it these days, the track is filthy and his tender drive Sir Nigel stuttered along for about 18 inches and gave up the ghost. We cleaned a short length of track and persuaded it back again but progress was erratic.

 

After this I was rather reluctant to place the O2 on the track at all, because I didn't want to be disappointed, but I needn't have worried. Straight out of the box it purred along as if the track was perfect, and was almost silent in both directions. It exceeded even my most optimistic expectations.

 

It ran like a sewing machine, so much so that my father seemed a little bit embarrassed by the lack of performance from his loco.

 

I only brought one of my four O2s but now I regret not bringing them all for a try out.

[John Tomlinson]

I hesitantly bought an 02 new off of ebay at a very nice price about a week ago and thought I would road test it today.

 

Reading here I was somewhat wary to buy and / or what I would get.

 

Here are my findings..

 

1. Nothing loose in the box.

2. Nothing bent warped or out of shape, printing is clear (not yellow numbers).

3. Everything worked as it should.

 

so onto the test..

 

It works like a dream it certainly seems solid as a performer.., sensing this engine had haulage potential...

Only criticism is the pony wheel seems a bit prone to dropping off the track on pointwork, I see its a known issue and I'll have a read to fix accordingly.

 

So I went one step further...

 

I have a rather silly gradient, about 6-8% used to transfer stock between my international layout and my UK layout.. the only things that really climb it is anything European (with traction tyres) or Bachmann DMUs... so I thought... why not.

 

The result was absolutely stunning... it took 5 coaches (+ a shunters truck which I use a barrier vehicle with Euro and UK couplings) from a standing start on the steepest part of the gradient without a hint of a slip...

here's a picture of the gradient and the train length..

 

impressed.. not half !!!

Never mind the old LNER kettle - your Polish locos look fascinating, and I'm especially interested in the double electric in the bottom picture. I didn't know anyone made such things - any chance of a few details?

 

John.

Edited March 25, 2016 by John Tomlinson

[tetsudofan]

Never mind the old LNER kettle - your Polish locos look fascinating, and I'm especially interested in the double electric in the bottom picture. I didn't know anyone made such things - any chance of a few details?

 

John.

 

  John,

 

Piko produce the Polish locos (as does a small German company or Schliessen or something....) . Have a look at www.piko.de and you'll find details of what they do. I collected an EU06 this week!!

 

Keith

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I have a rather silly gradient, about 6-8% used to transfer stock between my international layout and my UK layout.. the only things that really climb it is anything European (with traction tyres) or Bachmann DMUs... so I thought... why not.

 

The result was absolutely stunning... it took 5 coaches (+ a shunters truck which I use a barrier vehicle with Euro and UK couplings) from a standing start on the steepest part of the gradient without a hint of a slip...

here's a picture of the gradient and the train length..

 

impressed.. not half !!!

 Very appropriate test, as a final and well known allocation of the real locos was on branches serving ironstone quarry lines, abounding in rather silly gradients on which their grunt was much appreciated. Heljan have done the job right in respect of traction; of UK tender models it's right up there with Hornby's Britannia which is supplied at a similar weight.

 

Only outdone by the Bachmann 9F which is yet heavier: now this is all good stuff, with a little coordination might we in future get locos appropriately weighted proportional to their actual tractive rating?

[adb968008]

Polish modelling is Going from a desert to waterfall..

 

Piko and Schliesenmodelle have both gone head to head on making the EU06 and EU07, approx 10 versions have been made so far, Piko have made two versions of ET41 (the double loco, which is twin powered and runs up the wall sideways).

 

This is the release schedule so far:

 

2014 r.

 

1. 2014.09: EU07-193 (4E) (Piko 96360) | niebieska | PKP Cargo | CT Wielkopolski | Rev. 07.08.2009 (VIa) SK Model

2. 2014.10: EP07-187 (4E) (Piko 96361) | miętowo-zielona (żółte czoła) | PKP | CM Żurawica | Rev. 31.05.2001 (Vb) SK Model

3. 2014.11: EU07-348 (303E) (Piko 96362) | zielona | PKP | MD Poznań | Rev. brak (1984, IVc) SK Model

4. 2014.12: ET41-152 (203E) (Piko 96363) | zielona (żółte czoła) | PKP | Ostrów Wielkopolski | Rev. 30.12.2000 (Vb) SK Model

 

2015 r.

 

5. 2015.02: EU07-171 (4E) (Piko 96364) | miętowo-zielona | PKP | Kraków | Rev. 21.03.2002 (Vc) SK Model

6. 2015.04: EP07-198 (4E) (Piko 96365) | szaro-niebieska | PKP InterCity | Ep. VIa SK Model

7. 2015.06: EP08-006 (102E) (Piko 96366) | pomarańczowa | PKP | Ep. Vc SK Model

8. 2015.09: EU07-345 (303E) (Piko 96367) | miętowo-zielona (żółte czoła) | PKP | Białystok | Ep. Vb

8. 2015.10: EU06-10 (Piko 96368) | zielona (żółte czoła) | PKP | Kraków | Ep. Vb

9. 2015.11: EU07-314 (303E) (Piko 96369) | zielona (żółte czoła) | PKP | Olsztyn | Ep. Vb

10. 2015.12: ET41-144 (203E) (Piko 96370) | niebieska | PKP Cargo | Ep. VIa

 

2016 r.

 

9. 2015.??: EU07-167 (4E) (Piko 96371) | zielona (żółte czoła) | PKP | Poznań | Ep. Vb

 

 

First (actual) release dates:

 

2014-11-14: EU07-193 (Piko 96360)

2014-12-11: EU07-187 (Piko 96361)

2015-01-21: EU07-348 (Piko 96362)

2015-02-11: ET41-152 (Piko 96363)

2015-03-05: EU07-171 (Piko 96394)

 

They are made in batches of 500.

30 models in total are planned 2x EU06, and 5x ET41 in that lot, I understand the BR liveried electric blue EU07 is planned as one of the releases

http://www.locomotives.com.pl/Electric%20Locomotives/EU07_64.htm

 

 

Price for quality is excellent, I've 3x EU06/7s (345, 171 and EU06-10) at approx £100 each, the ET41 was about £160 I think).

 

They are quite hard to get as they do sell out.

 

Also worthy of note is Piko have additionally produced the SM42 (short distance diesel in many variants) and the Russian chme3 diesel used across Eastern Europe and have plans to make the SU45 diesel this Autumn.

Also with Tillig making the st43, Roco the St44 and the holy grail ty2 2-10-0 (cat 72220) and brawa made the Pt31 2-8-2 a decent collection of PKP is possible...indeed I have quite a PKP affinity and may build a PKP exhibition layout someday.

 

Coupled with acme and robo 's coaches Polish modellers have never had it so good.

Edited March 25, 2016 by adb968008

[John Tomlinson]

Thanks to Keith and adb968008 for the information. The Piko price of an ET-41 is euro259, so add in some discount and a good exchange rate may well get us around £160 - not a bad price at all.

 

Whilst I won't be doing a Polish layout, unless I survive well into my second century, I did find the three classes of PKP double electrics to be fascinating on my one trip to Poland over twenty years ago. Very serious haulage power, and of course the familiarity of the bodyshell of the ET-41's to our first set of WCML electrics.

 

John.

[adb968008]

Thanks to Keith and adb968008 for the information. The Piko price of an ET-41 is euro259, so add in some discount and a good exchange rate may well get us around £160 - not a bad price at all.

 

Whilst I won't be doing a Polish layout, unless I survive well into my second century, I did find the three classes of PKP double electrics to be fascinating on my one trip to Poland over twenty years ago. Very serious haulage power, and of course the familiarity of the bodyshell of the ET-41's to our first set of WCML electrics.

 

John.

They are planning to do a ribbed body side version of EU07 along the way, but I've not overlooked the possibility of using an EU07 to make a class 83.. Even though it's HO, it's actual height is much bigger and slightly longer than the class 83, so when scaled down its within range of 00.

 

The new Piko stuff is very good quality, and very detailed, definitely left the old communist toolset behind.

http://www.piko-shop.de/index.php?vw_type=artikel&vw_id=18870

Edited March 25, 2016 by adb968008

[Theakerr]

An update from Canada.  Things are progressing in a positive manner and I will report back later.  On a positive note, I have spent so much time under my 02 (sp to speak), I think I can modify the tender so that I can get the tender closer to the loco and keep the original draw bar.

Happy Easter

[Mark Hamlin]

An update from Canada.  Things are progressing in a positive manner and I will report back later.  On a positive note, I have spent so much time under my 02 (sp to speak), I think I can modify the tender so that I can get the tender closer to the loco and keep the original draw bar.

Happy Easter

Good news Theaker

 

Looking forward to hearing about your drawbar modifications.

 

Mine runs like a dream. All I have done so far is paint the axle ends and handrails black, but closer tender coupling and a fall plate are next on my list

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Easiest mod to the tender underside for closer coupling. Find a longer self tapper, drill hole in tender underside behind the existing bush for desired spacing. Remove weight (two screws centre line underside) and either discard (waaaay heavier than it needs to be) or drill clearance hole in weight for self tapper. This is all very easy to do, especially as the board is only held on by double sided tape and there's ample neatly dressed wire slack, good job by Heljan there.

[Theakerr]

Above is similar to what I was thinking except that I would add (glue)  a piece behind the existing tender mount.  Possibly shaped or square with the side filled in with epoxy.  Then drill new hole at desired location.  Speculation at the moment since I can't work on mine 

[alexandali]

Perhaps my friend's observations following receipt of his (satisfactory) replacement model (See posts #361 & 371) might be of interest:-

 

"I did notice one cause of the pony truck derailing on both of the O2s I have had hold of.

The lower end of the vacuum pipe sticks below the buffer beam by about 5mm and if you fit a front coupling into the NEM pocket on the pony truck the coupling can foul on the end of the vacuum pipe and prevent the pony from having full movement. There is also a possible clash with the 3 link coupling ready fitted to the loco at both ends. I have removed the front one from my loco as that was also catching on the front tension lock coupling.

Those people with perfectly flat trackwork will probably not have this issue but it may be worth posting on the thread."

 

Apologies if similar has been posted earlier, but others' experiences can be informative in these cases.

 

Regards,

                  John

Thanks for the reply John - yes I did notice that the 3 link coupling was fouling the tension lock - I have removed the tension lock which improved things - but it is still a poor runner on my layout. From a bit more experimenting, the problem seems to be less to do with the pony truck, but possibly due to a lack of sideways movement in the 8-coupled driving wheels. All 8 wheels are flanged, and on my peco curved and medium radius points, the driving wheels sometimes derail.

[Theakerr]

but possibly due to a lack of sideways movement in the 8-coupled driving wheels. All 8 wheels are flanged, and on my peco curved and medium radius points, the driving wheels sometimes derail.

 

Did you see my comment in post 381 re stiffness and lack of play?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...possibly due to a lack of sideways movement in the 8-coupled driving wheels. All 8 wheels are flanged, and on my peco curved and medium radius points, the driving wheels sometimes derail.

Not seen this trouble myself, on the streamline mediums and curved I have in use - but the curved are negotiated trailing direction only because I didn't find them wholly reliable on test in leading direction, with a very wide range of stock, kit and RTR which was otherwise trouble free.

 

I don't recall this observation previously on this thread, but if I repeat someone else' input, apologies. If there is one mechanism feature I would criticise on this model on the grounds of 'there's a lot of knowledge that suggests this isn't the best idea', it is the three leading coupled axles all flanged and coupled by one rod. Apt to make for some reluctance in those axles to shift laterally for curves, with consequent derailments, especially on pointwork. This is apt to be 'tweaky' in behaviour: most models probably never troubled by it, and especially if curves are 30" radius and up.

[BrushVeteran]

Not seen this trouble myself, on the streamline mediums and curved I have in use - but the curved are negotiated trailing direction only because I didn't find them wholly reliable on test in leading direction, with a very wide range of stock, kit and RTR which was otherwise trouble free.

 

I don't recall this observation previously on this thread, but if I repeat someone else' input, apologies. If there is one mechanism feature I would criticise on this model on the grounds of 'there's a lot of knowledge that suggests this isn't the best idea', it is the three leading coupled axles all flanged and coupled by one rod. Apt to make for some reluctance in those axles to shift laterally for curves, with consequent derailments, especially on pointwork. This is apt to be 'tweaky' in behaviour: most models probably never troubled by it, and especially if curves are 30" radius and up.

It might be worth checking to ensure that there are the correct number of fine nylon washers fitted to restrict side play. They should be in place as follows:-

 

From the front of the locomotive

Driving Axle 1 no washers

Driving Axle 2 one washer per side

Driving Axle 3 one washer per side

Driving Axle 4 one washer per side

 

There was an occasion on the pre-production samples where too many were fitted and this was causing the front end to derail. Cutting them away was quite a simple job if required.

Other than that check the back to back measurements,  they should be set at 14.2mm.

[gr.king]

That's narrow.

[jonny777]

Precisely - the book only covers up to 1950, and you refer to the BRITISH RAILWAYS period when there was no 'corporate' specification for loco liveries and numbering.

 

The discussion above was prompted by the erroneous bright yellow numbering of the BR version of Heljan's 'Tango'.

 

It referred to the period after a BR specification was issued concerning the numbering of locomotives - which dictated cream with a fine black outline.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

By sheer coincidence, I have been reading my Oct 1948 copy of Railway Observer.

 

Under the heading British Railways "Lettering And Numbering Of Locomotives And Coaching Stock" it states:-

 

"Standard instructions provide that all letters and figures are to be in Gill Sans medium type. Normally letters and figures are to be in gold or golden yellow, but letters and figures are to be outlined in black where the background is other than black.

 

In the case of locomotives, the engine number is to be of the largest standard size of figure possible in the space available (except on WR engines where the cast number plate will be retained). "

[cctransuk]

By sheer coincidence, I have been reading my Oct 1948 copy of Railway Observer.

 

Under the heading British Railways "Lettering And Numbering Of Locomotives And Coaching Stock" it states:-

 

"Standard instructions provide that all letters and figures are to be in Gill Sans medium type. Normally letters and figures are to be in gold or golden yellow, but letters and figures are to be outlined in black where the background is other than black.

 

In the case of locomotives, the engine number is to be of the largest standard size of figure possible in the space available (except on WR engines where the cast number plate will be retained). "

 

That may have been the initial intention in October 1948 when BRITISH RAILWAYS was being applied to locos, but there is ample evidence that this was not perpetuated into the first and second BR emblem eras.

 

Cream / straw yellow numbering was standard practice during the majority of the BR steam era.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Golden Fleece 30]

I have just been reading this thread from start to finish and although I will not be buying another Heljan loco after having a Garratt one item MAY be similar, I don't know.  A lot of Garratts had their front pony trucks derailing (or front drivers coming off), mine included, and after quite a lot of time I found out what the problem was.  The buffer beams were actually resting on the NEM pockets preventing any vertical movement.  It seems this was known by Heljan as both NEM pockets had been carved on the front top edge, not uniformly, either by a knife or file.  Even after the carving the buffer beam was resting on the pocket so before this the leading drivers would have been off the rails.  Fitting slightly smaller diameter wheels cured this problem and not one more derailment occurred in the 30 minutes I had it.

 

Off Tango topic now

Having had mine since it came out it was only a month ago it got its first run as I had 3-railed it for my layout, after 2 running sessions 30 minutes in total or less it just stopped with a whiff of smoke.  As I knew it was out of guarantee, well over time and I had 3-railed it, I decided to strip the motor and the photos show what a mess it had become literally within a couple of seconds from running okay to this.  Heljan are sending me some replacement motors but I am not convinced they will be any better if from the same supplier.  Others had their motors go in less than 5 minutes, some after a few hours so no set pattern.

 

Back on your topic above

With reference to the gold or yellow gold numbers this was the instructions for coaches in regional colours (SR had yellow or cream on green coaches) not locos.  I worked at the carriage works in York from 1968 till it closed and the numbers on maroon coaches (including Guard, Buffet Car etc) were transfers in both colours WITH a black edge to them.  When they were being disposed of I did get quite a supply but over the years they cracked and were thrown out.  These were gold size (varnish fix) transfers not self adhesive which appeared later in the Blue and Grey era.

 

In a post post someone said Tri-ang and Dublo had bomb proof valve gear.  Maybe so but mine are all still running 50 and 60 years later, my Garratt lasted 30 minutes.  Modern locos may look more to scale than their counterparts but they do not have the quality feel about them or will last I imagine 10/15 years although i will hopefully be proved wrong on that.

 

One comment was made about being expected to add broken pieces etc on, RUBBISH, you do not buy a car and expect to fit the door handles etc because they have come off during delivery.  When you pay for goods by law it is supposed to be "fit for purpose".  Too many people just go along with it and this is what causes, lets, manufacturers get away with poor shoddy workmanship.

 

Garry

 

Garry

Edited April 1, 2016 by Golden Fleece 30

[Horsetan]

....someone said Tri-ang and Dublo had bomb proof valve gear.  Maybe so but mine are all still running 50 and 60 years later, my Garratt lasted 30 minutes.  Modern locos may look more to scale than their counterparts but they do not have the quality feel about them or will last I imagine 10/15 years.....

 

I think what you may be looking for is Marklin-type quality - the bodies are highly detailed, but the chassis technology is much the same as it was in the 1970s (and looks it).

[Golden Fleece 30]

the bodies are highly detailed, but the chassis technology is much the same as it was in the 1970s (and looks it).

 

Maybe they do look like it but they are ALL still running

[Mark Hamlin]

My Tango worked fine on my small DC test track but since installing a Lenz silver it has been operating most erratically. It purrs along for a while and then comes to a complete standstill and then nothing. i tried some basic fault-finding and noticed some issues with the tender pickups that I resolved.

 

I finally gave up as I was a little grumpy. On my return the next day the loco performed faultlessly for a few minutes and then back to stops and starts then a final stop.

 

I even tried a different decoder but similar results.

 

Next stage is to look at that damn motor. Anyone else had similar issues or is this likely to be the dodgy commutator issue discussed above?