Heljan LNER Tango 2-8-0

[Gilwell Park]

Hi.  Regarding tractive effort of 2-8-0.  Don't forget the very first, the Hornby Dublo 8F 2-8-0. Still the record holder as far as I am concerned.

 

Roger.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...It would be interesting if you could possibly share with the rest of us the data on which you base your judgement that this is the first r-t-r 8F 2-8-0 to perform to prototypical haulage capabilities...

I expect the models to do as the prototype which for an 8F rating means 750 tons on 1 in 80 (that's the ruling gradient I use). My operation requires a guaranteed start with the loco and 60 wagon mineral train length all standing on the 1 in 80: that would be an easy empties load for an 8F. This requires about 45g force from the loco, and the O2 is the first OO 2-8-0 model to achieve this, 48g on my weight lift test. It may improve further, models often do as the tyres polish up with extended running. The Hornby O1 was next best of RTR 2-8-0s I have tried, 40g force. Not quite enough, though with the flywheel out and lead in for an extra 50g of weight over 'as supplied' it is now fine. (Other freight heavies: Bachmann WD 34g, Hornby 8F 30g, Bachmann O4 28g, Bachmann 9F 58g, estimated BG at circa 80g.)

 

I am sure the H-D 8F would do the job, but the day of a lumpen bodied 2-4-0 (those ghastly unflanged drivers!) is long past.

[Ian Hargrave]

Many thanks for that information.It really is valuable.Much appreciated for casting daylight on the situation and giving concrete data on performance in real terms.Cheers! Ian.

[jonny777]

When Peter Chatham first started to produce his 'Methfix' transfers on small sheets, yellow numerals were on the sheet as well as cream ones. I always used the yellower numerals that I was familiar with on London Midland locomotives. The large almost white numerals I always associated with the Eastern Region.  Eventually the steam era disappeared and memories faded in the intervening years. Nowadays the ex-PC Models transfer sheets only contain cream numerals.  Brian Haresnape in his 'Railway Liveries 1948-68' book quoted from official BR livery diagrams : - "All (loco) lettering and numerals are Gill Sans in cream, edged with a narrow black band". So where did I get the idea I saw yellowish numerals, in fact where did Peter?  Maybe John Isherwood is right and they did go yellowish due to oil, muck (and cleaning oils). But almost white numerals never sat easy with me on L.M.Region locos, so I wonder if these were used in the 1960's (by which time my interest and contact with BR was diminishing). I have flipped through a LMR Janes album and found both colours, though none were as vivid a yellow as on the Heljan model. I suggest it safer to use the cream numerals if renumbering the Gresley 2-8-0.

 

 

I was also told the "yellow numerals for green locos and cream for black" mantra, and I was inside Kings Cross model shop at the time trying to purchase the right sheet for a white metal A3 I was attempting to build, so it must have been advice given to many a modeller 45 years ago, albeit wrongly.

 

However, I have a theory. I also tried the colour album route, but got bored and decided to do a search on the Colour-Rail website for the period 1948 to 1951. I found that the original brighter green locos (not the later Brunswick colour) with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender, had the lettering in a very bright yellowy/orange colour, and most had cabside numerals to match.  It may be just me, but have a look at some from the 1949/50 era and see what you think.

 

My theory is that works or depots were given a supply of these coloured numbers and letters in order to promote the new nationalised image asap, but when the cycling lion replaced the BR lettering some of the locos just kept the yellow/orange numerals until the next repaint. 

[railroadbill]

I was also told the "yellow numerals for green locos and cream for black" mantra, and I was inside Kings Cross model shop at the time trying to purchase the right sheet for a white metal A3 I was attempting to build, so it must have been advice given to many a modeller 45 years ago, albeit wrongly.

 

However, I have a theory. I also tried the colour album route, but got bored and decided to do a search on the Colour-Rail website for the period 1948 to 1951. I found that the original brighter green locos (not the later Brunswick colour) with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender, had the lettering in a very bright yellowy/orange colour, and most had cabside numerals to match.  It may be just me, but have a look at some from the 1949/50 era and see what you think.

 

My theory is that works or depots were given a supply of these coloured numbers and letters in order to promote the new nationalised image asap, but when the cycling lion replaced the BR lettering some of the locos just kept the yellow/orange numerals until the next repaint. 

Kings Cross model shop, eh? Probably bumped into each other, used to be a busy place lunch times...    coincidentally I've just come across some Kings Cross nameplates lurking in a box. 

 

I've got 2 sheets of PC models 4 mm transfers sheet 14 for BR steam era locos and coaches. They have copyright 1979 on the instructions. One's methfix that I hardly ever used so nearly intact, the other's the remains of a pressfix one (got on better with those).

 

The instructions on the pressfix sheet read : "Steam locos were numbered in the style at the upper left part of the sheet, usually creamy white but sometimes yellow"

 

But on the methfix sheet, the otherwise identical instructions have been printed with  the words "but sometimes yellow" removed, leaving a gap!

 

So methinks this issue has been raised before.

 

 

Does look a nice model -  I'm losing the plot a bit on this, probably answer is already earlier on this thread, but will there be a version produced (think it's O2/2?) with the earlier GNR style cab?  Think the ones listed in BrushVeteran's post 253 are sub classes with the later cab, but stand to be corrected!

Edited January 27, 2016 by railroadbill

[Market65]

Hi. The GNR cab variant is one to come in future times.

 

With regards,

 

Rob.

[CUTLER2579]

Hi railroadbill,

 

Quote  "Does look a nice model -  I'm losing the plot a bit on this, probably answer is already earlier on this thread, but will there be a version produced (think it's O2/2?) with the earlier GNR style cab?  Think the ones listed in BrushVeteran's post 253 are sub classes with the later cab, but stand to be corrected! "Quote

 

The O2/2 did indeed have the older GNR cab, but the O2/4 that "Brush Veteran" mentions not only had the Later cab of the O2/3's but the 100A boiler from the Thompson B1.

So looks quite different from the O2/3, except for the cab.

I think from this small list of variations you will see what a nightmare this has been for Heljan as a manufacturer and Poor Old  "Brush Veteran" who has toiled for a good number of years obtaining information and getting test models analysed by those among us with the relevant experience, which I hasten to add does not really include me.My contribution was minute.

Grahame was I believe in his early twenties when he started this project about a decade ago but has been aged by the process and looks closer to Sixty now.LOL.

 

Kind Regards,Derek.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...The instructions on the pressfix sheet read : "Steam locos were numbered in the style at the upper left part of the sheet, usually creamy white but sometimes yellow"

 

But on the methfix sheet, the otherwise identical instructions have been printed with  the words "but sometimes yellow" removed, leaving a gap!

 

So methinks this issue has been raised before...

A book I endlessly recommend 'The Big Four in Colour 1935 - 50' contains enough evidence to settle the argument. BR undoubtedly had locos with yellow cabside numbers and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender in its earliest years. Where visible the smokebox numbers were white/cream. There is even a photo of two locos adjacent top p190, one with yellow numbers and lettering the other cream numbers: in the same light, on the same film stock; BR used two different colours for cabside numbers.

[cctransuk]

A book I endlessly recommend 'The Big Four in Colour 1935 - 50' contains enough evidence to settle the argument. BR undoubtedly had locos with yellow cabside numbers and BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender in its earliest years. Where visible the smokebox numbers were white/cream. There is even a photo of two locos adjacent top p190, one with yellow numbers and lettering the other cream numbers: in the same light, on the same film stock; BR used two different colours for cabside numbers.

 

Precisely - the book only covers up to 1950, and you refer to the BRITISH RAILWAYS period when there was no 'corporate' specification for loco liveries and numbering.

 

The discussion above was prompted by the erroneous bright yellow numbering of the BR version of Heljan's 'Tango'.

 

It referred to the period after a BR specification was issued concerning the numbering of locomotives - which dictated cream with a fine black outline.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited January 28, 2016 by cctransuk

[Joe MCMLXI]

Just a little bit off topic, slightly, but the Hornby Q6 'sample' also seems to be potentially going to end up with 'Yellow' cab numerals as well .... the decorated sample....

 

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/the-warley-national-model-railways-show-special/

 

 

though to be fair, the initial 'announcement picture shows it with 'Cream' numerals...

 

 

http://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2016/locomotives-train-packs/raven-q6-class.html

 

 

whatever the outcome, I'll be taking one for my layout (already pre-ordered with RAILS) , another fine Heavy Freight loco to add to my stable.....

 

joe

Edited January 28, 2016 by Joe MCMLXI

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Precisely - the book only covers up to 1950, and you refer to the BRITISH RAILWAYS period when there was no 'corporate' specification for loco liveries and numbering.

 

The discussion above was prompted by the erroneous bright yellow numbering of the BR version of Heljan's 'Tango'.

 

It referred to the period after a BR specification was issued concerning the numbering of locomotives - which dictated cream with a fine black outline...

 And the issue of that specification instantly eliminated any yellow lettering and numbering already applied I suppose? Come on... 

[cctransuk]

 And the issue of that specification instantly eliminated any yellow lettering and numbering already applied I suppose? Come on... 

 

Of course not - but I'll bet that when BRITISH RAILWAYS was painted out and the the 'cycling lion' transfers were applied, they repainted the numbers too - in cream.

 

What we were talking about was whether yellow numbering with the 'cycling lion' (or the later crest) was correct or not.

 

It has never been disputed that all sort of colour variations happened during the BRITISH RAILWAYS era.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[BrushVeteran]

Fortunately then I only specified the two early crest models to have yellow numbers.....................I will try and do better next time!

[coachmann]

The BR specification bares out the cabside numerals were cream once the experimental period was over. They must have yellowed in traffic on some locos, as has been mentioned. The reason the cabside numerals stood out on the L&YR 0-6-0's is because they were large and ivory colour. They may even have been hand painted at Horwich Works. Eastern Region black locos I saw also had ivory numerals. I simply used to use the 'Methfix' yellow numerals because that is how they looked trackside on some locos. But the yellow ones look out of place on the model Tango 2-8-0.

Edited January 28, 2016 by coachmann

[31A]

Fortunately then I only specified the two early crest models to have yellow numbers.....................I will try and do better next time!

 

Thanks so much to yourself and the others involved in bringing this project to fruition, with so much attention to detail, and adding to the (until recently small!) range of GN engines available RTR.   Black goods engines are the easiest of all to renumber / re-letter, should it be so desired....

[Gilwell Park]

Hi.  Having just looked through several colour albums, including Brian Haresnape, there are numerous illustrations of locos with numbers that could be described as yellow. I am only basing this observation on those pictures that include something obviously white such as lamps, OH flashes or even MT lining to provide a contrast. Roger

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The mechanism is a real sweeetie on this model, really quiet and creamy smooth through the speed range (on vanilla DC from an H&M controller) now its had near six hours steady trundling forward and reverse. That's put to bed any question about drive longevity for me, it's well out of the infant mortality zone now.

 

Traction unchanged, but plenty adequate, it does some neat rhythmic grunting when the load changes as a heavy train gets onto a curve (the Bach 9F does this too.) Top speed scales 65mph on my example so a good gear ratio choice, and nearly as fast as a current Bachmann V2. I know which driveline better represents prototype capability.

... adding to the (until recently small!) range of GN engines available RTR...

 Three different GNR origin classes within a twelvemonth, that's left me all overcome and needing a lie down. There is  a slight hole in the power ratings though isn't there, A more modest GN goods loco that's going to end up in BR power class three perhaps: now that Heljan have shown they have the knack for UK steam?

[31A]

 There is  a slight hole in the power ratings though isn't there, A more modest GN goods loco that's going to end up in BR power class three perhaps: now that Heljan have shown they have the knack for UK steam?

 

The J6 has sometimes come high in the poll ratings ......

[Ian Hargrave]

The J6 has sometimes come high in the poll ratings ......

Would a "Ragtimer" qualify ? Probably not as a strictly goods loco....but welcome nonetheless?

[No Decorum]

Very welcome. Problematic, though, because of the differing wheelbases, which might be harder to accommodate than different body mouldings. The nine K1s with the smaller leading wheels might be the best bet. They were re-boilered to produce K2s. The locomotives built as K2s had a longer wheelbase. Of course, if Heljan in its infinite generosity of spirit (prompted by BrushVeteran) were to produce both variants, I'd be delighted.

 

This is all off the top of my head, so I'm prepared to dodge a bullet or two.

[CUTLER2579]

Heljan Manor has a nice ring about it...

 

Oh Larry I so agree,  Heljan B17 61636 Harlaxton MANOR  BR Green sounds fantastic.

 

Regards,Derek.

[45568]

Would a "Ragtimer" qualify ? Probably not as a strictly goods loco....but welcome nonetheless?

The K2 would be a marvellous choice for the LNER/BR modeller. Used on the GN, GE and GC main lines, not forgetting their use, (side window cab version), on the West Highland line, a signature Fort William locomotive, an ideal companion to Hornby's yet-to-be-announced Gresley K4! Remakably long-lived too. giving a nice spread of liveries.

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C. (Awaiting his O2 from the next batch).

[No Decorum]

K4? Stunning little machine. Can't imagine why it hasn't been done yet. Relieved, though, that it wasn't done by Hornby until design clever had been got out of the system.

[3737]

My O2 arrived today from hattons.

After having run half a length of slightly curved track it stopped running and the wheels are now jammed.

So far I am unable to see what the cause is.

The valve gear, especially on the right side,  has too much sideplay and could interfere with the front driver but this is not what has happened.

 

Leen.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

If the geared axle is 'tight' compared to the other coupled axles, that's the symptom of a gear train lock up, which is the most usual type when there is nothng to see as a cause.