Motive power for Camden Shed

[cb900f]

Hi John

 

As I mentioned I think it would be more appropriate to post these in my blog for Hest Bank under "modelling real locations", so that's where they are. If I had the slightest idea how to put in a link, I would do so.

 

Terry

Just type in Hest Bank in the search box at the top of the page.

 

Pete

[92220]

She looks a belter, loved the video, watching the motion work on the new chassis makes it look light years ahead of the standard Hornby one, well done mate.

Regarding the slots in the tender, i think he means the ones that several Stanier tenders got to let water out. On page 110 of the LMS Locomotive Profiles on the Duchess there is a picture of 46238 tender first in 64 with the slots cut in to the tender.

 

 

Ahh, I see, yes. Thanks, Brocp. As I understand it, these slots were cut in a few tenders, in the very cold winter of 62-63, to aid draining water away and stop the ice rink formation. Which is a bonus in this case as I'm doing before that!

 

Hi John

 

As I mentioned I think it would be more appropriate to post these in my blog for Hest Bank under "modelling real locations", so that's where they are. If I had the slightest idea how to put in a link, I would do so.

 

Terry

Hi Terry,

Anything with a late crest Duchess in it is fair game on this thread I think!

All the best,

Iain

[92220]

Waiting for a couple of things to arrive so I can complete the task of hanging the tender off the back of 46144, so will hopefully get to finish that next weekend.

 

This next bit is a bit bonkers. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that I was starting this, and put a thread in the 2015 build a loco challenge. Partly it was a way to use some bits that otherwise were never going to be used, and partly to practise some skills on something that was less high stakes. Thread is here if you're interested in seeing how I went about it: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/99006-br-caprotti-crosti-standard-5/?p=1881819

 

So here it is pretty much completed: the BR Standard 5 Caprotti Crosti that was planned but never built.

 

 

 

 

I did gain some confidence here because the chassis runs ok and it will be a bit of fun to get out occasionally.

 

Back to serious business: choice for the next one was either to do another Comet Coronation to go under 46251, 46239, 46245 or 46250, or, to start the DJH 46256 that I got for my birthday back in September. I chose the latter, partly as I'm intrigued by the comments on other threads about what is wrong with various versions. Armed with a fair bit of literature, off I went.

 

There's not much room between the drivers on a Coronation to fit the brakes, especially as the DJH brakes are not mounted on cross rods of wire, but are entirely etched. The kit is not buildable as designed with the right size wheels (they specify a smaller wheel in the instructions than the bespoke 6'9" Markits ones here)

 

 

So I have soldered some scrap etch in the slots for the rear and middle brake gear and drilled through for a rod instead. The brake shoes are also drilled and I'll mount them that way instead. Not much room but I think it will work.

 

 

This all went very smoothly this afternoon, and here is first run:

 

https://youtu.be/C1BAmXIMeOk

 

Soldered the crankpin bushes on, still very smooth. Then I realised that, with a symmetrical wheelbase, you do need to put the rods on the right side.

 

Ugh.

 

No harm done. I can remove and reattach them. But a lesson learned.

 

Iain

Edited January 23, 2017 by 92220

[jrg1]

Then I realised that, with a symmetrical wheelbase, you do need to out the rods in the right side.

 

Pardon?

 

The Crosti looks great-I believe it would be filthy in service.

[92220]

Then I realised that, with a symmetrical wheelbase, you do need to out the rods in the right side.

 

Pardon?

 

The Crosti looks great-I believe it would be filthy in service.

Autocorrect strikes again. Sorry.

I have edited it

 

Iain

[Black5]

Hi Ian,

Spent the afternoon going through your blogs on the motive power for Camden.

You certainly give people ideas on modifying rtr models or complete re builds. The results you have produced over time have been outstanding with, I think, British Legion being a fine piece of work.

I agree with you about building Walschaerts valve gear, very fiddly to work on and need delicate handling  but give a much more satisfying result, definitely worth the effort.

Best of luck with your continuing production line!

Cheers just now,

Jim.

[92220]

Thanks Jim, hope I can keep up the interest.

 

I've made a bit of progress on 46256. This is where it stands at the moment, without any wheelset in the trailing truck:

 

h

 

 

 

 

I've made quite a lot of alterations to this kit as I went on. In no particular order:

 

The delta trailing truck provided by DJH represents the original one that was replaced after a few months. The Comet version is quite accurate around the axleboxes for the later version, but it doesn't fit because the leading arms are the wrong shape and angle - they are too long and don't turn in or down enough. So I needed to combine the two. File the lip off the DJH arms, and solder to the rear half of the Comet truck.

 

 

 

 

Ejector pipe was a bit lumpen, so I removed the cast pipes and replaced them with various grades of wire.

 

 

 

Cab and cab roof are the wrong shape as provided. I needed to flatten out the profile of the front of the cab, reducing its height by about 1.2mm. The cab sides aren't bad and are about the right height as far as I can work out from drawings and photos (though neither these nor the Comet cab sides have the right rivet pattern). The slope of the spectacle plates needs shallowing slightly and the spectacle apertures themselves have to be adjusted too. Then the roof needs what felt like an age to fettle accordingly. It's too big in all dimensions and too sharply curved.

 

The main injector pipe is significantly short and needs lengthening.

 

 

Crossheads as provided are a bit small, and these particular ones were also incompletely formed. So I substituted Comet ones, which have a thicker piston, and also decided to add a piece of brass tube as a cylinder liner - having been impressed with the Markits version on 46248.

 

 

DJH deflectors are a bit short and this changes the look of the loco's face. Comet replacements look a lot better, but getting this bit right also requires the handrail pillar holes to be relocated. It's a useful double check that these measure out too low on the kit anyway.

 

 

 

Injectors, pipework, AWS conduit etc all either added or about to be added from various bits of wire, scrap etch etc. AWS battery box - the closest match came from the spares box.

 

Scratched reverser from brass rod and tube filed to shape.

 

 

More to follow.

 

Iain

[Brocp]

Hi Iain,

 

Top work as usual mate, you're actually making pretty quick progress i think mate!

 

So glad to see you have used Comet deflectors on 46256, the DJH models I've seen of Duchesses really look horrible around the face, it really takes away from the model as a whole. After this experience do you think you'll build more DJH ones or just keep Comet "chassising" Hornby ones?

 

Hope the back is feeling better,

 

Broc

[92220]

Hi Broc,

 

Thanks, yes it is hopefully getting better. Won't know for a few weeks. Same op as Tiger Woods: hope my post-op golf career is more hopeful than his.

 

Interesting question. I feel there is a lot to improve in this DJH kit but it does make a decent model in the end. There is a problem as I mentioned earlier that if you use the correct diameter wheels, you can't use the brake gear as it stands. Whether my modification is good enough, I don't yet know. There is a fair number of other components to upgrade the DJH kit if you list them all at once. I had most of them anyway, but if I built another DJH I'd have to supplement that one too. The cab is an issue. I think I've made a half decent job of this one, but if I had to try a full cab Coronation I don't know whether it is modifiable to the right shape. Most of the DJH examples I've seen of 46220-46255, the cab sides look way too heavy and low-slung. That could be the effect of the too-curved and too-big cab roof at the rear and small deflectors at the front.

 

I think I will Cometise (if that is even a word) my other existing Coronations (46239, 46251, and the bodies to make 46245 and 46250) and sell the Hornby chassis to fund. The new Hornby version might be even more worth adding a Comet chassis to.

 

This one should haul a decent load too: the loco on its own now weighs 725g. I think I overdid the lead...... I just need to sort out some clearances as there are some points of contact on the trailing truck and bogie. But I'm turning in for the day now.

 

What did I miss out yesterday?

Markits buffers.

Comet under cab supports and lever.

Comet Stanier steps all round (DJH ask you to mix white metal and etched brass ones on the tender, which feels wrong)

Comet front frame steps and AWS bang plate

Gibson couplings

Gibson handrail pillars

Comet injector

Drag beam from a Comet Royal Scot fret

Brassmasters lamp irons and tender lifting eyes

Plenty of scrap brass and white metal, plus wire of various descriptions.

 

Still to do:

Front steps

Buffer beam lamp irons

Cab details (will paint separately and add after painting)

Lubricators (I've drilled all these out and added all the oil pipes in 5A fuse wire: these will all be added to the footplate after painting as they will really get in the way otherwise)

Cab floor and fall plate

 

Filling in the ash pan and rear frames

 

 

 

And as it stands at the moment:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Iain

Edited February 18, 2017 by 92220

[jrg1]

A great build-and thank you for taking the time to provide a parts list.

I was interested to read of your observations regarding the trailing truck.  There were two-one cast, one fabricated, and they were swopped between 6256 and 6257.

[Brocp]

6256.jpg 6257.JPGA great build-and thank you for taking the time to provide a parts list.

I was interested to read of your observations regarding the trailing truck. There were two-one cast, one fabricated, and they were swopped between 6256 and 6257.

The original cast ones were replaced by fabricated ones in 1950, due to the cast ones cracking after a few weeks in service and needing constant repairs.

[92220]

The original cast ones were replaced by fabricated ones in 1950, due to the cast ones cracking after a few weeks in service and needing constant repairs.

That's what I had gleaned from my research. The first type of trailing truck was very troublesome and cracked so both the Ivatt pacifiics had a new version as represented by my model. Slightly surprised that a kit would be built with the expense of all those castings to represent a version that was only in traffic for a very short time. Come to think of it, the cylinders also represent the earliest Coronation type with a circular access hatch. These were filed and carefully smoothed down, to be replaced by a spare oval set from a Comet fret.

 

The castings themselves are excellent throughout the kit - clean and with plenty of accurate detail.

 

Iain

[Jol Wilkinson]

That's what I had gleaned from my research. The first type of trailing truck was very troublesome and cracked so both the Ivatt pacifiics had a new version as represented by my model. Slightly surprised that a kit would be built with the expense of all those castings to represent a version that was only in traffic for a very short time. Come to think of it, the cylinders also represent the earliest Coronation type with a circular access hatch. These were filed and carefully smoothed down, to be replaced by a spare oval set from a Comet fret.

 

The castings themselves are excellent throughout the kit - clean and with plenty of accurate detail.

 

Iain

Iain,

 

the use of the original part is probably due to lack of research. Most drawings and photos showing the best detail are those published when a loco is new. If you use just that easily available information, then you get a model of the ex work locos.

 

Photos of the locos in service may not show the truck in sufficient detail for the designer to spot the difference.

 

Hope you recovery continues to go well.

 

Jol

[Brocp]

Iain,

 

the use of the original part is probably due to lack of research. Most drawings and photos showing the best detail are those published when a loco is new. If you use just that easily available information, then you get a model of the ex work locos.

 

Photos of the locos in service may not show the truck in sufficient detail for the designer to spot the difference.

 

Hope you recovery continues to go well.

 

Jol

As Jol states, there usually wasn't many drawings from notifications later on in a locomotives life, unless something like a rebuild happened. With regards to the Ivatt pair, there were no drawings available for the modified truck, in the LMS Locomotive Profiles for the Duchesses, it states they got a drawing drawn up especially for the book to show the difference from the original truck.

[46256]

Lovely model, the pipe work alone is stunning. My user logo on this thread is to represent my love of these two Ivatt pacifics.

When I see the photo of the real 46256 resting after her last train....crying out to be preserved.....

 

Really enjoy your work...more please

 

 

Best wishes Brian

[jrg1]

The original cast ones were replaced by fabricated ones in 1950, due to the cast ones cracking after a few weeks in service and needing constant repairs.

Thanks-my reference appears faulty in that case.

[92220]

Iain,

 

the use of the original part is probably due to lack of research. Most drawings and photos showing the best detail are those published when a loco is new. If you use just that easily available information, then you get a model of the ex work locos.

 

Photos of the locos in service may not show the truck in sufficient detail for the designer to spot the difference.

 

Hope you recovery continues to go well.

 

Jol

 

 

Thanks Jol. I can see that would be the case.

Early signs are good but I do need to be patient, which isn't always easy.

 

 

As Jol states, there usually wasn't many drawings from notifications later on in a locomotives life, unless something like a rebuild happened. With regards to the Ivatt pair, there were no drawings available for the modified truck, in the LMS Locomotive Profiles for the Duchesses, it states they got a drawing drawn up especially for the book to show the difference from the original truck.

 

 

Very true Broc, I have used that volume extensively. I think the DJH kit for the Ivatt probably even predates that book so all they had to go on would have been original drawings.

 

 

Lovely model, the pipe work alone is stunning. My user logo on this thread is to represent my love of these two Ivatt pacifics.

When I see the photo of the real 46256 resting after her last train....crying out to be preserved.....

Really enjoy your work...more please

Best wishes Brian

Thanks Brian. I think I have written before that I consider 46256 to be the most regrettable non-preservation decision.

 

Thanks-my reference appears faulty in that case.

No problem at all, I always appreciate your interest. It's interesting to me unravelling the disagreements between different sources. I've used plenty of references in the past that turned out to be not quite right. Notably the drawing for 44687 that had the chimney about a foot too far forwards.

 

So here it is after sorting out the trailing truck - needed to file the inside of the white metal castings, and to add 4 fibre washers each side to minimise sideways movement of the wheelset. Interestingly, I couldn't get a 3'9" Stanier wheel so these are 1mm too small. The tender also needed careful addition of washers and I think I ought to add a very thin layer of epoxy onto the sides of the keeper plate/pull rods as there is very little clearance.

 

A clean start with a random rake of 14 (mixed rtr and kits) on a curve and through all the fiddle yard pointwork. The consist isn't supposed to represent anything prototypical, but I've begun dismantling the layout and all the stock is packed away, so it was whatever came out of the trays.

 

I don't have any concerns about its haulage capabilities. I just need to build a Camden Shed mk2 that has good enough track to allow it to run properly.

 

https://youtu.be/wwNBoF5Pbf4

 

https://youtu.be/yXgQk5LIMks

 

 

 

I've scrubbed it clean throughout the build, but there is a fair bit of white residue coming out as below. On the Right Track DVD on painting, Ian Rathbone describes a 3 step cleaning process: flash floor cleaner, then cellulose thinners, and finally some acid (I can't recall which one without watching the DVD again) before painting. Any views from anyone on here very welcome.

 

 

AWS tanks, cables, pipes and lubricators will be added after painting as described before. Here is one of the piped lubricators.

 

 

The Markits sprung buffers protrude much too far so will need adjusting too. Cinder guards will be filed back and a tiny piece of acetate added for the glazing. Whistle to add too. These will go on after painting. So until some decent weather, this is now done apart from axle nut covers, cylinder inspection covers and draincocks.

 

I never quite understand why pasting a YouTube address works variably: sometimes the site adds URL tags and prevents it appearing as an embedded frame, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Iain

[92220]

 

 

Trying again.

 

Iain

[Jol Wilkinson]

Iain,

 

Flash, like other cleaners, is alkaline (soap) based and so should neutralise any remaining flux. Cellulose thinners will remove any residual grease, oils, etc. (especially important if you use Nivea, Oil of Olay or similar for lovely skin) and finally the acid will  "etch" the surface for good paint adhesion.

 

Carrs Acidip - which is weak solution of phosphoric acid plus unspecified additives as far as I know - is good for cleaning a model before painting.

 

What did you scrub it with? The white residue may be residual flux trapped in crevices reacting with CIF or a similar cleaner.

 

Excellent work, as usual.

 

Jol

[46256]

Sorry if I've missed it but what motor gearbox combo have you used on this build..?

[jrg1]

Couldn't agree more-the Ivatt Pacifics met every criterion for preservation, but BR seemed to have developed a talent for trashing assets.  Seeing the Bulleid and LMS diesels stored at Derby, and subsequently broken up, plus 71000 taken off the preservation list, made me wonder what kind of philistines were running the railways.  

[Brocp]

Sir Willaim not getting preserved was certainly a travesty, same as 10000. I never understood the thinking back then, No A3 or A1 offically listed, no Patriot preserved, the fact any Princesses got preserved was a miracle as well (Thank god for Mr Butlin) I always personally thought 46245 should have been preserved as well, it seemed, at least from what i have read, to have been the best in the class easily. I know funds and storage have to be considered when it comes to preservation but the fact the first main line diesel locomotive in Britian wasn't included in any official list goes to show what the authorities actually thought of preservation.

[92220]

Iain,

 

Flash, like other cleaners, is alkaline (soap) based and so should neutralise any remaining flux. Cellulose thinners will remove any residual grease, oils, etc. (especially important if you use Nivea, Oil of Olay or similar for lovely skin) and finally the acid will  "etch" the surface for good paint adhesion.

 

Carrs Acidip - which is weak solution of phosphoric acid plus unspecified additives as far as I know - is good for cleaning a model before painting.

 

What did you scrub it with? The white residue may be residual flux trapped in crevices reacting with CIF or a similar cleaner.

 

Excellent work, as usual.

 

Jol

  

 

Thanks very much, Jol.

 

It was scrubbed at the end of every day with Cif so that sounds a likely explanation.

 

Does anyone know - would cellulose thinners affect the small amount of green filler I've used? (Best thing would be for me to test a piece in isolation I think).

 

Sorry if I've missed it but what motor gearbox combo have you used on this build..?

Mashima 1626 and a Comet GB3.

 

Iain

[Jol Wilkinson]

Couldn't agree more-the Ivatt Pacifics met every criterion for preservation, but BR seemed to have developed a talent for trashing assets.  Seeing the Bulleid and LMS diesels stored at Derby, and subsequently broken up, plus 71000 taken off the preservation list, made me wonder what kind of philistines were running the railways.  

 

 

Sir Willaim not getting preserved was certainly a travesty, same as 10000. I never understood the thinking back then, No A3 or A1 offically listed, no Patriot preserved, the fact any Princesses got preserved was a miracle as well (Thank god for Mr Butlin) I always personally thought 46245 should have been preserved as well, it seemed, at least from what i have read, to have been the best in the class easily. I know funds and storage have to be considered when it comes to preservation but the fact the first main line diesel locomotive in Britian wasn't included in any official list goes to show what the authorities actually thought of preservation.

When those (and other significant railway items) were scrapped, it was during a much different period. The railway preservation scene was just starting, mainly by enthusiasts with little money. Personal transport and disposable income were much less than today and the need for spoon fed leisure activities had not yet been discovered.

 

The people running the railways were doing so under difficult and challenging circumstances and they were not historians, so why would you expect them to spend time and money in preserving "obsolete" locomotives.

 

That "Sir William Stanier" was not preserved is rather ironic. During an inspection of Crewe Works when he was appointed LMS CME, Stanier spotted some LNWR locomotives that had been retained and kept back from scrapping. When told what they were he had them broken up.

[Michael Edge]

  

 

Thanks very much, Jol.

 

It was scrubbed at the end of every day with Cif so that sounds a likely explanation.

 

Does anyone know - would cellulose thinners affect the small amount of green filler I've used? (Best thing would be for me to test a piece in isolation I think).

 

 

Mashima 1626 and a Comet GB3.

 

Iain

 

I hope the weight isn't too much for that (a loco must be able to spin its wheels), the heaviest Duchess on Carlisle weighs 650g.