Motive power for Camden Shed

[92220]

I qui

 

 

I quite agree, Mike and Iain. The Hornby examples are nicely proportioned models with a good paint finish, but in terms of their haulage capability, they are disappointing. I, too use DJH Duchesses on Hest Bank (4 of them) to haul the heaviest trains as 14 mk1s seems to be a perfectly manageable load. I also have a couple of old Hornby Dublo Duchesses (with as many cosmetic mods as possible) and their haulage capacity is phenomenal. I am still working on the idea of scratch (or Comet) chassis with as much weight as possible inside a current Hornby body shell. We'll see how heavy I can get them!

 

Incidentally, I find both Hornby Britannias and the Duke to be better haulers than their Duchesses or Scots. I haven't checked their weights, but I suspect that their heaviness may be the reason.

 

Terry D

Thanks Terry. I think you're right about the Hornby Britannias compared to the Duchesses. I've not tested the Duke properly as it's not run in.

 

Hope all is well with you a couple of hundred miles up the WCML?

 

Iain

[Barry O]

Iain

 

I have been building a new chassis for one of my Royal Scots as its motor/gearbox interfaces suffered Mazak rot. I am intending to use the Hornby valve gear but I may just bite the bullet and build a set of comet parts as the RTR ones do look a bit like a piece of pressed metal.. which of course, is what they are!

 

perhaps a photo of a Duchess will help to keep you going?

 

 

Not sure who built and painted this one.. could well be from Graham Varley.. dccd by Mike Edge and weathered by me for the big layout

 

 

Baz

Edited December 24, 2016 by Barry O

[Michael Edge]

Thanks Mike, glad it's not just me who can't! I bought RM for the first time in a long while yesterday, specifically to see and read about Carlisle. Epic. To you and David, and everyone else on the project, many congratulations so far, and I look forward to more instalments.

 

I need to wait for better weather to complete painting etc, so next on the list are 2 Coronations - one Comet chassis for a Hornby City of Leeds which is earlier in the thread. I detailed it and then tried to add enough weight to make it disturb the surface of a rice pudding. Sadly I miscalculated the internal dimensions and once I'd left the cyano to set fully, I was left with a body and that wouldn't fit the chassis any more, and I couldn't get the liquid gravity out either.

 

The other is a DJH 46256. I'm hoping that I can make a decent enough fist of it so that it will run well enough, pull well enough and be detailed and finished well enough. One thing that I'm not yet sure of is the shape of the cab and cab roof. Did you do much to the DJH Duchesses in that area?

 

Thanks,

 

Iain

I'm not sure about it either but I didn't build most of them so they are more or less standard DJH in this area. The scratchbuilt ones were built long before detailed drawings of these locos were easily available so they may not be absolutely correct either - they are however easily the best performers on the layout despite being at least 35 years old.

[Brocp]

You don't see many models of red Duchesses with BR lining, very nice. However, is that a sloping smoke box front? I don't think any of the class were painted red with the sloping front?

 

JF.

City of Manchester certainly was, didn't get its round smokebox until 5th April 1960, she was BR red from 9th October 1958. (Info from LMS Locomotive Profiles 11)

[92220]

Iain

 

I have been building a new chassis for one of my Royal Scots as its motor/gearbox interfaces suffered Mazak rot. I am intending to use the Hornby valve gear but I may just bite the bullet and build a set of comet parts as the RTR ones do look a bit like a piece of pressed metal.. which of course, is what they are!

 

perhaps a photo of a Duchess will help to keep you going?

 

city of manchester dirty (1280x275).jpg

 

Not sure who built and painted this one.. could well be from Graham Varley.. dccd by Mike Edge and weathered by me for the big layout

 

 

Baz

  

 

Thanks Baz, very atmospheric and authentic as always.

 

Having built the complete Scot chassis, I'd recommend doing the whole thing as the Hornby valve gear has a fair bit more sideways play than the Comet version. I did wonder how the hell anyone could build it in P4, but I guess they don't use Markits crankpins and washers.

 

Santa brought me a variable temp soldering station and a couple more Comet chassis packs. Nothing like feeding a developing addiction I suppose!

 

I'm not sure about it either but I didn't build most of them so they are more or less standard DJH in this area. The scratchbuilt ones were built long before detailed drawings of these locos were easily available so they may not be absolutely correct either - they are however easily the best performers on the layout despite being at least 35 years old.

  

 

Thanks Mike. Only reason for asking was that on many pics I've seen of DJH Duchesses, the cab area looks wrong. Don't know whether the cab sides are too deep or the roof profile is too sharply curved. Will see how this one goes.

 

You don't see many models of red Duchesses with BR lining, very nice.  However, is that a sloping smoke box front?  I don't think any of the class were painted red with the sloping front?

 

JF.

  

City of Manchester certainly was, didn't get its round smokebox until 5th April 1960, she was BR red from 9th October 1958. (Info from LMS Locomotive Profiles 11)

brocp beat me to it. Manchester was the final one to get the smoke box replacement I think.

 

Iain

[92220]

I spent a couple of afternoons on the chassis for 46248. The frames fit wth only a little adjustment, though getting the height correct needs to be done after fitting the motion bracket and cylinders.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm using Markits machined crossheads, which are a perfect sliding fit, as long as you fit only one layer of the Comet slidebars and adjust the insertion into the rear cylinder face. After the amount of fettling required on the Comet ones for the Scot, I think these look better (once the drop links are added), run better and are less work. Though they are an extra cost....

 

 

I'm getting a bit better at pick ups, though that might be partly that there is a bit more space with 27mm drivers.

 

 

 

 

 

First test - it's nowhere near as noisy as this without the body on so I'm hopeful that it will be ok when it's properly fixed together and full of ballast.

 

 

Iain

[TerryD1471]

  

 

Thanks Baz, very atmospheric and authentic as always.

 

Having built the complete Scot chassis, I'd recommend doing the whole thing as the Hornby valve gear has a fair bit more sideways play than the Comet version. I did wonder how the hell anyone could build it in P4, but I guess they don't use Markits crankpins and washers.

 

Santa brought me a variable temp soldering station and a couple more Comet chassis packs. Nothing like feeding a developing addiction I suppose!

 

  

 

Thanks Mike. Only reason for asking was that on many pics I've seen of DJH Duchesses, the cab area looks wrong. Don't know whether the cab sides are too deep or the roof profile is too sharply curved. Will see how this one goes.

 

  

brocp beat me to it. Manchester was the final one to get the smoke box replacement I think.

 

Iain

I quite agree Iain. I felt when I acquired my DJH kits that the cab was a tricky area. First, the step between firebox top and cab roof was too great, so that had to be adjusted. Second, the cab roof is a bit too sharply curved, effectively pushing the cab side too far down. I like to think I got it as right as I could, but the newest Hornby one still has a better shape in my view. It can't pull like DJH ones, though!

 

Just to throw another pebble in the pond, the DJH smokebox would be the right length IF you didn't have to stick the smokebox face on to it. That makes the smokebox 1.5 mm too long. DOH! Also the angle at which the boiler and the firebox are joined is variable and visually critical.

 

I have tried to create good Duchesses from old and newer Hornby Dublo body castings (after surgery on their fireboxes) using a variety of different chassis. Success levels vary. I have never been lucky enough to land on a Rowel casting; they seem to be very good, if elusive.

 

I've concluded that I am never going to achieve the perfect model Duchess; I just have to accept that the models I have are pleasing to me in different ways. I have a late Hornby-Dublo Duchess with Romfords (and a few other mods) which managed to start 21 coaches on a 1 in 80 uphill grade. I'm prepared to forgive some visual inaccuracies for that kind of capability!

 

All the latter comments about 46246 (and Baz's photo) are spot-on!

[92220]

Thanks Terry. Those points about the cab roof, firebox etc, are very helpful. I have the DJH Ivatt Duchess to build and haven't got it out of the box to check yet, but will bear it in mind when I do.

 

Having got quite a long way with this now:

 

 

the satisfaction of making a set of Walschaerts valve gear work perfectly is enormous! I think the combination lever is a fraction shorter than it ought to be, but being thick, I didn't spot it early enough, so it will have to stay as it is.

 

I'm hoping that I can get enough weight inside the cavernous body and between the frames to make it a prodigious enough hauler. In which case the Comet frames and gearbox/Mashima 1628 combination might rejuvenate the 4 Hornby Coronations that I have so far. I'll see how the DJH one shapes up (in both senses) alongside.

 

Iain

[92220]

Happy new year everyone!

 

A potential problem with a project like this is that the further you go, the further you can go. The chassis improves things a good deal I think, so then the body and tender come in for scrutiny.

 

This 46248 had originally been given most of the Comet treatment in an upgrade earlier in this thread, but adding the bogie:

 

 

 

started to draw attention to the front of the loco and the inside cylinder cover in particular was screaming at me. I didn't do this originally and it really is the best thing not to do this after adding all the other detail. But the front of the DJH and the new Hornby one both capture this key area better so to make them homogeneous, here you go:

 

 

 

The tender: I added a completely new set of pickups - I ought to have taken some pics as they worked quite well and much better than the Hornby ones. Connected using the Comet component. The loco pickups are ok, but have two issues:

1. Until I add enough weight, the rear drivers don't sit on the track at all times.

2. The centre drivers don't contact the track anyway. It's only a fraction of a mm, but the frames are designed to have the centre drivers sitting just a little bit higher than the others, so it sits four square. Would be nice if it sat six square I suppose. Would also have been nice if I'd spotted this before soldering in the bearings. I'll know when I make the next one.

So the tender pickups are useful.

I thinned down the sides by paring with the Swann Morton blade, and made a new coupling. I haven't (yet?) removed the infamous ledge because of a fear of damaging the finish as I've been trying all along to maintain that.

 

And here it goes:

 

 

This morning I will add about 300g of lead and see what that does, then finish the last bits - add the ash pan bottom and inside frame extensions, replace the glazing, vacuum pipes and front lamp iron, add the valve rod covers to the inside cylinder cover and complete the cylinders, then paint all those satin black. Then I think a few coats of Klear and wait for decent enough weather to weather it.

 

Iain

[TerryD1471]

Oh my!  Starting 21 coaches up 1 in 80!!  Superlative hauler, well done!

 

John F.

It was nothing to do with any ability of mine, I should say; just a combination of a huge Hornby-Dublo motor and loads of weight which H-D locos had in spades! Even better considering the original loco dated from 1962.

[TerryD1471]

Happy new year everyone!

 

A potential problem with a project like this is that the further you go, the further you can go. The chassis improves things a good deal I think, so then the body and tender come in for scrutiny.

 

This 46248 had originally been given most of the Comet treatment in an upgrade earlier in this thread, but adding the bogie:

 

IMG_1213.JPG

 

IMG_1214.JPG

 

started to draw attention to the front of the loco and the inside cylinder cover in particular was screaming at me. I didn't do this originally and it really is the best thing not to do this after adding all the other detail. But the front of the DJH and the new Hornby one both capture this key area better so to make them homogeneous, here you go:

 

IMG_1211.JPG

 

IMG_1212.JPG

 

The tender: I added a completely new set of pickups - I ought to have taken some pics as they worked quite well and much better than the Hornby ones. Connected using the Comet component. The loco pickups are ok, but have two issues:

1. Until I add enough weight, the rear drivers don't sit on the track at all times.

2. The centre drivers don't contact the track anyway. It's only a fraction of a mm, but the frames are designed to have the centre drivers sitting just a little bit higher than the others, so it sits four square. Would be nice if it sat six square I suppose. Would also have been nice if I'd spotted this before soldering in the bearings. I'll know when I make the next one.

So the tender pickups are useful.

I thinned down the sides by paring with the Swann Morton blade, and made a new coupling. I haven't (yet?) removed the infamous ledge because of a fear of damaging the finish as I've been trying all along to maintain that.

 

And here it goes:

 

 

This morning I will add about 300g of lead and see what that does, then finish the last bits - add the ash pan bottom and inside frame extensions, replace the glazing, vacuum pipes and front lamp iron, add the valve rod covers to the inside cylinder cover and complete the cylinders, then paint all those satin black. Then I think a few coats of Klear and wait for decent enough weather to weather it.

 

Iain

Lovely work, Iain. Bogie looks superb and I'm glad you altered the inside cylinder cover; it's really the only thing wrong with the Hornby body shell.

 

May I add a word of caution about the position of the middle driving axle. Years ago I had a tutorial from my old friend Tony Wright in which his sage advice was to arrange for the middle axle to be drilled a tiny fraction higher than the 1st & 3rd, effectively making it a 4-coupled chassis. This enables a rigid chassis to negotiate slight track imperfections at less risk of the leading driving axle derailing.

 

I found this out the hard way when about 25 years ago I built a DJH peppercorn A1 in which the chassis as supplied had the middle driving axle holes etched very slightly lower than the 2 outer ones. It used to derail far too easily until I dismantled it and corrected the bearings in line with TW's advice. Hope this helps!

 

T

[92220]

Hi Terry,

 

Thanks, and yes, I remember now the same piece of advice from Tony on his DVD I think.

 

Aside from the cosmetic inner frame extensions under the firebox, it is now externally ready for painting.

 

 

 

 

 

However, this is a standing start with a mixed rake of 10, admittedly starting on a curve and a slight uphill:

 

 

Not too bad?

 

With 16 on:

 

 

It does get moving but needs better adhesion. I've currently got extra lead, making up to about 460g in total, in the loco firebox and smokebox, and there is space for more but it is a bit more fiddly, in between the frames and in smaller nooks and crannies. If I can get it up to 550g?

 

Iain

 

Edit: realised looking at the picture that I forgot the spacer under the cab so it sits a bit nose up

Edited January 1, 2017 by 92220

[Brocp]

Hi Iain,

 

Looking great so far (as per usual) just a quick question mate, how many coaches could the standard Hornby chassis pull?

 

Cheers mate and Happy New Year

[farren]

Excellent work Iain, just wondering what are your plans with the other locos. Are you thinking of replacing all the Hornby chassis? And what are your thoughts on the new Hornby Princess Coronation.

[TerryD1471]

Hi Iain,

 

Looking great so far (as per usual) just a quick question mate, how many coaches could the standard Hornby chassis pull?

 

Cheers mate and Happy New Year

If I can stick my oar in, I would say that any more than 10 Mk 1s and they struggle for adhesion.

 

Terry D

[92220]

Hi Iain,

Looking great so far (as per usual) just a quick question mate, how many coaches could the standard Hornby chassis pull?

Cheers mate and Happy New Year

Thanks and same to you!

I think Terry got it about right with a limit of 10 Bachmann mk1s set up out of the box. The rake above has 3 kitbuilds (which run more freely once moving but have more mass). I think (hope) that this one will manage a good few more. To put in perspective, my modified 92220 will pull 18 easily enough.

 

 

Excellent work Iain, just wondering what are your plans with the other locos. Are you thinking of replacing all the Hornby chassis? And what are your thoughts on the new Hornby Princess Coronation.

Hi Farren,

 

I've really enjoyed making this one and may do (several!) more. I have a second Comet full chassis kit, wheels motor and gearbox, so only need to get started on it, plus the DJH 46256/7. I may try to make one or more of the current Hornby ones I have (46239, 46251) more potent with added weight - but where? I also have a couple more spare bodies. I like the way this chassis runs more than the rtr.

 

Also means I can see ways of making a decent Princess now too.

 

Not all the 4-6-0s have quite the same haulage issues - I'll use some rtr underpinnings and some kits.

 

I started a rebuilt Jubilee some time back, which I won't complete, instead making a new one using a new Bachmann Jubilee footplate and cab with a Hornby rebuilt Patriot firebox, boiler, smokebox etc on a Comet chassis. Should be fun.

 

The new Hornby Coronation is interesting, and may be a very good model in its own right without any adjustments. Or it may be even better with a replacement chassis - the photo may be of a current chassis missing the front brakes, but if that is the new chassis, it will have been a missed opportunity. The body of 46256 on the photos provided so far looks excellent. New smoke deflectors needed, and the tender vents are wrong, but these are opportunities for modelling aren't they?

 

Iain

[ianwales]

 

I started a rebuilt Jubilee some time back, which I won't complete, instead making a new one using a new Bachmann Jubilee footplate and cab with a Hornby rebuilt Patriot firebox, boiler, smokebox etc on a Comet chassis. Should be fun.

 

 

Iain

Hi Iain

 

Will you be writing up the Rebuilt Jubilee conversion as you do it please?

 

Ian

[92220]

Hi Iain

 

Will you be writing up the Rebuilt Jubilee conversion as you do it please?

 

Ian

Hi Ian,

Yes, certainly will, when I get round to it.

Best wishes,

Iain

[Brocp]

Thanks and same to you!

I think Terry got it about right with a limit of 10 Bachmann mk1s set up out of the box. The rake above has 3 kitbuilds (which run more freely once moving but have more mass). I think (hope) that this one will manage a good few more. To put in perspective, my modified 92220 will pull 18 easily enough.

 

Hi Farren,

 

I've really enjoyed making this one and may do (several!) more. I have a second Comet full chassis kit, wheels motor and gearbox, so only need to get started on it, plus the DJH 46256/7. I may try to make one or more of the current Hornby ones I have (46239, 46251) more potent with added weight - but where? I also have a couple more spare bodies. I like the way this chassis runs more than the rtr.

 

Also means I can see ways of making a decent Princess now too.

 

Not all the 4-6-0s have quite the same haulage issues - I'll use some rtr underpinnings and some kits.

 

I started a rebuilt Jubilee some time back, which I won't complete, instead making a new one using a new Bachmann Jubilee footplate and cab with a Hornby rebuilt Patriot firebox, boiler, smokebox etc on a Comet chassis. Should be fun.

 

The new Hornby Coronation is interesting, and may be a very good model in its own right without any adjustments. Or it may be even better with a replacement chassis - the photo may be of a current chassis missing the front brakes, but if that is the new chassis, it will have been a missed opportunity. The body of 46256 on the photos provided so far looks excellent. New smoke deflectors needed, and the tender vents are wrong, but these are opportunities for modelling aren't they?

 

Iain

 

Thanks for the info Iain, well if you can grt a bit more weight in her, she should pull 15 pretty well then.

 

I'll be very interested to see the new Rebuilt Jubilee you tackle. I wouldn't be surprised though if Hornby announced one eventually, especially how the body on the scots/pats is all clip together bits.

 

Regarding the new Duchess, I've spoken to a member of the development team who says they are tooling up 6 different Duchess tenders and that they've changed the tender vents on the Ivatt pair already, but the mock up was made before that. So that will be one less peice of modelling to do on them.

[92220]

Thanks for the info Iain, well if you can grt a bit more weight in her, she should pull 15 pretty well then.

I'll be very interested to see the new Rebuilt Jubilee you tackle. I wouldn't be surprised though if Hornby announced one eventually, especially how the body on the scots/pats is all clip together bits.

Regarding the new Duchess, I've spoken to a member of the development team who says they are tooling up 6 different Duchess tenders and that they've changed the tender vents on the Ivatt pair already, but the mock up was made before that. So that will be one less peice of modelling to do on them.

Thanks, that's helpful and encouraging to know.

 

City of Leeds may be unique in having slots in the back of the tender - did you have a go at cutting the slots?

 

JF

No, that one passed me by I'm afraid. I thought I had most of the reference material on the Coronations. Any more details where the slots were and what shape?

 

I managed to get the total weight up a bit further.

 

 

 

 

I did quote an incorrect figure last time - no idea how I did that but sorry. It was 417g and it now stands at 503g or thereabouts in the loco itself. Whether that will be enough remains to be seen.

 

The Hornby choice of red receives a lot of criticism and I can understand that. Different batches seem to have varying degrees of mauve and mud in them. But with 3 coats of Klear I think this one scrubs up ok. It certainly will look ok with a bit of weathering when I can get that done. Cylinders painted and lined (Pressfix) also - interesting trying to match to this Hornby shade as well. Still to add the etched plates. The Hornby smokebox numberplate seems almost better than the etched one though.

 

 

 

 

 

In action. Apologies for the dodgy camera work, but it does run quite smoothly.

 

https://youtu.be/NSwCCj5qUM0

 

Have also almost completed the Royal Scot too. When I do the next one, I will change the arrangement of the motor and gearboxes I think. I did it this way:

 

 

But if I turn the gearbox round next time, the motor should then sit above the front wheels, leaving a decent space for lead in the firebox. The Hornby body has a smokebox weight anyway, and so this one is quite nose heavy. I'm not sure how I can find space for more mass in the back half of the loco so I may have to hang the tender off the back and add lead to the front half of the tender. This would require me to make the front two axles of the tender floating ones. Which may need a new chassis.....?

 

The Hornby green also comes up much better with Klear:

 

 

 

The two together:

 

 

 

Iain

Edited January 6, 2017 by 92220

[92220]

Doesn't seem to want to accept the embedded YouTube link as usual. Here it is using the same method as always, but the previous post keeps added the URL tags automatically.

 

 

Iain

[ikks]

Doesn't seem to want to accept the embedded YouTube link as usual. Here it is using the same method as always, but the previous post keeps added the URL tags automatically.

 

 

Iain

She is absolutely beautiful the magnificent Stanier masterpiece brilliant !!.............I went around Camden in 1960, the star of the show was 46230 Duchess of Buccleuch immaculate in BR green. So you could stick a couple of 66A locos in there.

 

Mike

Edited January 6, 2017 by ikks

[Brocp]

Thanks, that's helpful and encouraging to know.

 

No, that one passed me by I'm afraid. I thought I had most of the reference material on the Coronations. Any more details where the slots were and what shape?

 

I managed to get the total weight up a bit further.

 

IMG_1220.JPG

 

IMG_1221.JPG

 

IMG_1222.JPG

 

I did quote an incorrect figure last time - no idea how I did that but sorry. It was 417g and it now stands at 503g or thereabouts in the loco itself. Whether that will be enough remains to be seen.

 

The Hornby choice of red receives a lot of criticism and I can understand that. Different batches seem to have varying degrees of mauve and mud in them. But with 3 coats of Klear I think this one scrubs up ok. It certainly will look ok with a bit of weathering when I can get that done. Cylinders painted and lined (Pressfix) also - interesting trying to match to this Hornby shade as well. Still to add the etched plates. The Hornby smokebox numberplate seems almost better than the etched one though.

 

IMG_1228.JPG

 

IMG_1229.JPG

 

IMG_1230.JPG

 

IMG_1231.JPG

 

In action. Apologies for the dodgy camera work, but it does run quite smoothly.

 

https://youtu.be/NSwCCj5qUM0

 

Have also almost completed the Royal Scot too. When I do the next one, I will change the arrangement of the motor and gearboxes I think. I did it this way:

 

IMG_1227.JPG

 

But if I turn the gearbox round next time, the motor should then sit above the front wheels, leaving a decent space for lead in the firebox. The Hornby body has a smokebox weight anyway, and so this one is quite nose heavy. I'm not sure how I can find space for more mass in the back half of the loco so I may have to hang the tender off the back and add lead to the front half of the tender. This would require me to make the front two axles of the tender floating ones. Which may need a new chassis.....?

 

The Hornby green also comes up much better with Klear:

 

IMG_1232.JPG

 

IMG_1233.JPG

 

The two together:

 

IMG_1234.JPG

 

IMG_1235.JPG

 

Iain

 

She looks a belter, loved the video, watching the motion work on the new chassis makes it look light years ahead of the standard Hornby one, well done mate.

 

Regarding the slots in the tender, i think he means the ones that several Stanier tenders got to let water out. On page 110 of the LMS Locomotive Profiles on the Duchess there is a picture of 46238 tender first in 64 with the slots cut in to the tender.

[mark axlecounter]

Hi Iain Hope all is well,

I have been busy with non railway things and in that time you have built 2 stunning locos.  

I bet you are itching to start the djh kit. Keep up the good work bud.  

 

Mark

[TerryD1471]

Hi,  Interesting to hear you have a couple of Dublo Duchesses with extra detailing:  any photos available please?.  Promise not to drool!!

 

John Fitton.

Hi John

 

As I mentioned I think it would be more appropriate to post these in my blog for Hest Bank under "modelling real locations", so that's where they are. If I had the slightest idea how to put in a link, I would do so.

 

Terry