Hornby 2 BIL

[Oldddudders]

Horsham regularly saw SUB workings from both Waterloo and London Bridge via Dorking, these services commencing in 1938 when the electrification took place. The other service down the line was the Vic - Portsmouth/Bognor Regis fasts, which didn't deign to call intermediately between Dorking North and Horsham. There was also a berthing siding at Holmwood, where, even after the 1967 WTT changes, the 1752 from Waterloo would berth. I think the morning working was about 7.35 from Holmwood - can't quite remember.

 

The Southern Electric "idea" recognised that berthing trains where they were wanted in the morning was economical. It was only when times changed, and it was decided that traincrew really needed to be "seen" when booking on to verify their finess for duty, that these "holes in the wall" were slowly closed, and main depots had siding capacity increased accordingly. ECS mileage increased substantially, too. I can just remember the middle-siding at Wallington, in which I think the 2308 from Victoria berthed every night. I think there were two guards for whom this was their home station!

[brushman47544]

 

Yes, it was hardly representative of the normal situation, but at least it's a handy excuse for any modeller tempted to marshall up this rake. I wonder if there was a balancing working in the evening? I believe there was a similar situation between Dorking and Horsham, Dorking was the normal limit for SUB working, witness the stabling sidings there, but some peak-hour SUBs would run on to Horsham. I'm not sure whether this would be a Central or South Western Division operation, the two seemed to share the spoils on this line? I must say that these regular Sussex 4SUB commuters must have developed some fantastic bladder control. :-) BK

 

From memory, and I am sure Olddudders will correct me if I'm wrong, In the 60s/70s at least, the 4SUBs worked beyond Dorking to Horsham on both Central and South Western Division peak-hours services. Off-peak, the line was used only by the Victoria - Portsmouth Hbr/Bognor Regis fasts and the intermediate stations (Holmwood, Ockley & Capel, Warnham) were not served.

 

Some peak hour trains were split or joined at Dorking - on 3 September 1973 the driver of the 4SUB from Horsham failed to stop, hit the set waiting in the up platform and caused this Crash at Dorking in 1973 and 4661 at Dorking.

[Brian Kirby]

Interesting stuff, i'm off to get my pre-group atlas, to find out where Holmwood is! BK

[Brian Kirby]

 

Some peak hour trains were split or joined at Dorking - on 3 September 1973 the driver of the 4SUB from Horsham failed to stop, hit the set waiting in the up platform and caused this Crash at Dorking in 1973 and 4661 at Dorking.

Ummm, nasty. That's a very serious impact with extensive stoving, perhaps the driver momentarily thought he was on a fast non-stopper? Was anybody killed, there must have been serious injuries? BK

['CHARD]

......, wiping out the LAVs,

 

Rather you guys than me....

[brushman47544]

Interesting stuff, i'm off to get my pre-group atlas, to find out where Holmwood is! BK

 

There's a mine of information in the book "Up The Dorking" by John Harrod published in around 1999 I think. No idea if it's still available though.

[brushman47544]

 

Ummm, nasty. That's a very serious impact with extensive stoving, perhaps the driver momentarily thought he was on a fast non-stopper? Was anybody killed, there must have been serious injuries? BK

 

Indeed - and somewhere there's a press photo of the two DTSOs side-on showing much more damage and showing how high the rear of 4661 had been driven up by the impact. Don't remember about casualties I'm afraid.

[4630]

Indeed - and somewhere there's a press photo of the two DTSOs side-on showing much more damage and showing how high the rear of 4661 had been driven up by the impact. Don't remember about casualties I'm afraid.

 

7 injured but fortunately no fatalities according to this;

 

http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=8839

[4630]

 Crash at Dorking in 1973.

 

A very unfortunate incident but a very helpful photo for anyone needing a good idea about the rough layout and appearance of conduit and ventilators on the roof of a 4Sub.

[Oldddudders]

 

Ummm, nasty. That's a very serious impact with extensive stoving, perhaps the driver momentarily thought he was on a fast non-stopper? Was anybody killed, there must have been serious injuries? BK

The Railways Archive says there was no formal enquiry, which is suprising. 7 injuries, no fatalities, it says. The train should have been brought to a stand at CBK 41, about 700 yds in rear, then received CBK 44 calling-on signal, telling the driver he was entering an occupied platform. There may have been a problem with brakes etc. It is uphill into the platform, although downhill all the way from Holmwood to a point between CBK44 and the platform, roughly underneath the South Eastern Railway overbridge.

[Oldddudders]

There's a mine of information in the book "Up The Dorking" by John Harrod published in around 1999 I think. No idea if it's still available though.

Yes, I've got that somewhere - must have a read.

[metadyneman]

Talking of EMU crashes and 2-BILs in particular. There was a very nasty crash at Roundstone Level Crossing on the West Coastway out of Brighton in 1965 involving 2-BIL unit 2105 and a Southdown Bus. The bus caught fire which gutted both it and the leading 2-BIL driving trailer. There is a photo of it HERE

[Gwiwer]

Talking of EMU crashes and 2-BILs in particular. There was a very nasty crash at Roundstone Level Crossing on the West Coastway out of Brighton in 1965 involving 2-BIL unit 2105 and a Southdown Bus. The bus caught fire which gutted both it and the leading 2-BIL driving trailer. There is a photo of it HERE

 

As I remember it happened in thick fog as well meaning the signalman's error wasn't seen until it was too late.  The bus was fleet no. 939 known locally as the one which carried a ripped blind offering the destination "Worthing Pie" having lost the final R.  

[Southernman46]

Indeed - and somewhere there's a press photo of the two DTSOs side-on showing much more damage and showing how high the rear of 4661 had been driven up by the impact. Don't remember about casualties I'm afraid.

 

Imagine the carnage if this had been BIL's............all steel stock was such an improvement

[metadyneman]

As I remember it happened in thick fog as well meaning the signalman's error wasn't seen until it was too late.  The bus was fleet no. 939 known locally as the one which carried a ripped blind offering the destination "Worthing Pie" having lost the final R.  

I presume the bus was a "Queen Mary" PD3?

[John M Upton]

Yep, one of Southdown's legendary Northern Counties bodied Leyland Titan PD3 'Queen Mary' types.

A stylish bus for a more civilised age...

[Gwiwer]

A stylish bus and a stylish train both built in (different) ages when such things mattered.  My understanding is that the fire was found to have started because the train pushed the bus along the tracks for some distance causing friction sparks which then started a severe fire possibly due to a ruptured fuel tank.  That the Bil was so badly damaged as well shows the intensity of the blaze.  Southdown had 285 of these "Queen Mary" Leyland PD3 buses but owing to this loss they were never all in service at the same time.

[John M Upton]

A question that I really should know the answer to but don't!  I am building the stabling sidings for my EMU fleet on my shunting plank.  It consists of two roads, each of two carriage capacity and between the two roads will be a standard BR Southern Region concrete walkway running the full length.  Now the question is this, does the conductor rail go on the inside of the two roads underneath the edges of the walkways or on the outside of the two roads?

 

TIA!!

[Xerces Fobe2]

A question that I really should know the answer to but don't!  I am building the stabling sidings for my EMU fleet on my shunting plank.  It consists of two roads, each of two carriage capacity and between the two roads will be a standard BR Southern Region concrete walkway running the full length.  Now the question is this, does the conductor rail go on the inside of the two roads underneath the edges of the walkways or on the outside of the two roads?

 

TIA!!

 

I think the the 3rd rail on the outside of the two roads is prototypical and would be an overall safer option for the railway staff.

 

Xf

[John M Upton]

I'll go for that then, thanks!!

[metadyneman]

A stylish bus and a stylish train both built in (different) ages when such things mattered.  My understanding is that the fire was found to have started because the train pushed the bus along the tracks for some distance causing friction sparks which then started a severe fire possibly due to a ruptured fuel tank.  That the Bil was so badly damaged as well shows the intensity of the blaze.  Southdown had 285 of these "Queen Mary" Leyland PD3 buses but owing to this loss they were never all in service at the same time.

I remember the Queen Marys in service. They were still running around in Brighton & Hove when I moved there from London in 1978 although their days were numbered. I was particularly impressed with the fact I could catch a bus home from work in normal service which was open top!! (something unheard of in my home town of Ealing!)  This usually happened around Derby Day when the "convertible" PD3's were de-roofed for the occasion and remained so for some weeks afterwards. Happy days... anyway  I have strayed orft topic now.. but they were happy days!

Edited February 27, 2013 by metadyneman

[4630]

 

A question that I really should know the answer to but don't!  I am building the stabling sidings for my EMU fleet on my shunting plank.  It consists of two roads, each of two carriage capacity and between the two roads will be a standard BR Southern Region concrete walkway running the full length.  Now the question is this, does the conductor rail go on the inside of the two roads underneath the edges of the walkways or on the outside of the two roads?

 

TIA!!

 

 

 

 

I think the the 3rd rail on the outside of the two roads is prototypical and would be an overall safer option for the railway staff. Xf

 

To add to the above here is a real-life example - Bournemouth Middle Sidings.  The pictures show that the juice rail is on the outside of the two roads with protective boarding on both sides to aid staff safety.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope this helps.

[John M Upton]

Much obliged!

[Mod6]

I've now removed most of the posts dealing only with delivery and distribution issues.  This was requested in topic some time ago by (IIRC) John Upton, but we don't see every single post and it is much better to alert us by report rather than posting.

 

Posts moved are now in the topic on Hornby gremlins here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68354-Hornby-supply-and-demand-gremlins/.  Some posts have been removed entirely as being redundant or in some cases just silly.

 

If there are some I've missed then tough PM me if it really bugs you, but hopefully what is now left is on the model and prototype issues only.

 

I've also merged the other model topic started by Oldlugger into this one.

 

Further posts in this topic on deliveries etc are liable to be summarily deleted.

 

I did put some considerable effort into splitting posts on delivery issues out of this topic and leaving this for discussion of the model and the prototype only - at your request.  I have just moved a few more across posted since, including from at least one member who 'liked' the above!

 

If you want to talk about Hornby delivery and distribution then please use the topic linked above and leave this one for the model only.  Final announcement.

[Southernman46]

Nothing significant to add...............but my tuppence having got my sticky paws on one.

 

Picked up mine today - I succumed and sourced a DCC fitted SR green one from the 47401 project (a DC purchase helping to restore another DC project !) for a VERY reasonable price.

 

What a lovely thing  , the roof mouldings look fine from normal viewing distance and the black ink mods will only improve these, the front end looks very nice and as for the bogies being wrong - well, I don't know enough about SR EMU bogie configurations for it to bother my simple brain  .

 

For a RTR item at that price - well happy !

 

Now where's that yellow paint ?

 

I would happily let Hornby do that 4-SUB now........