GWR Poster boards and early Structure Colours

[David Bigcheeseplant]

A metro tank will be fine. just remember to post a photo on here.

[buffalo]

...On some layouts that have been set in the Victorian and Edwardian period and have GWR buildings painted in the later style look quite odd to my mind. I look forward to seeing a 517 with Indian red frames running in to a GWR station with the earlier structure colour application.

 

Will a 517 in chocolate brown livery at a station with chocolate frames and doors do? Mind you, I still have to finish and paint both (and the autotrailer) so don't hold your breath. Of course, Dave's much further ahead -- see fifth and sixth photos in this blog entry, I expect Ian will get there before me as well.

 

Nick

Edited January 25, 2015 by buffalo

[BG John]

I've been sent here while trying to get the colours right for the station building and trainshed I'm about to build for my broad gauge layout. I needed to lie down for a few hours before wading through all six pages, but I've managed it! I haven't seen anything published or online about this new information on colours. Has any further work been done on it?

 

The station building I'll be making is based on drawings of Ashburton, so will be stone with a timber trainshed, but not a model of any specific prototype.

 

It seems as though there may have been lighter colours used in the early broad gauge years, but in the later period doors and windows, including frames, were all over chocolate, and a timber trainshed would have been light stone (No 1?). But what about bargeboards, gutters etc.?

[BG John]

To liven up the conversation, I thought I'd throw in this one of Plymouth Millbay, with what looks like chocolate windows on the station building, and a light coloured window on the building in the foreground.

http://broadgauge.org.uk/heritage/train_sheds_detail.html?shed=millbay

Edited January 29, 2016 by BG John

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi John I would have expected the barge boards to be light or dark stone I posted a link here before but to my mind the model looks right http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/52409-blogentry-5869-0-67722200-1358517373-thumb1/

 

I expect there were exceptions to the rules hence the light window on Milbay but generally I would go for what is in the thread dark windows and doors and a mix of light and dark stone.

[BG John]

I've just realised that the station building for my long gone "Broad Hinton", that was built by the late Mike Jolly, had chocolate doors and windows. Mike was one of the really knowledgeable people on the broad gauge, so unlikely to have got it wrong.

[Job's Modelling]

Read this with great interest. A lot of useful information.

Some one asked if the posterboard also where used as chalk boards. I found this picture of a clever made notice in 1922: http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1802.htm. Have also a look at the poster board heading: special notices.

[Mikkel]

Picking up this thread with a photo I found on Alamy:

 

https://c7.alamy.com/comp/W77N31/vintage-photograp…icycle-and-penny-farthing-19th-century-W77N31.jpg

 

If you zoom in you'll note the GWR poster board top left corner. I don't recall seeing that stylish rounded top before, a nice feature.

 

The photo raises questions about place and time. The Alamy caption is "Vintage photograph of Victorian cyclists outside a Great Western Railway station with bicycle and Penny Farthing,19th-century".

 

However, Penny Farthings were used for special racing events long after they were superseded by the modern bike in the late 1880s/1890s, so their presence in the photo does not automatically date it (see e.g. this 1928 film).

 

And then there's the question of where the photo was taken. Any thoughts?

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Mikkel

[Simond]

Nice find.  “Kent” insurance poster, not much help as there another advert for “Glenrosa”, which might be a whisky…

 

I’d guess somewhere rural, perhaps seaside.  Wales?

 

bikes are interesting, they all have brakes, the middle one has an unusual pedal arrangement, not seen that before, and the “safety” bicycle appears to have a trapezium frame, but no downtube, which massively reduces its stiffness & strength.  It’s difficult to be sure, but it looks like the rear mudguard is fulfilling that task, none too well I imagine, but gaining some weight saving.  And then mount a ruddy great (leather?) satchel on the bars?

 

I can imagine Alfred, Bertram & Charles gracing layouts all over the place as they make their travels.  A diorama group for Modelu perhaps?

why is there an angled mirror on the buttress above Alfred’s head?

 

hanging next to the mirror are what appears to be oilskins or similar, and possibly a landing net?

 

what are the three things to the right of Charles, (are they crabs?) and  why is there a metal “fence” around the Windowledge? 

 

[K14]

Superb photo. Agree it's probably a seaside location (assuming that those are shells behind Charles)

 

Bertram's bicycle is a 'Facile' - mid to late 1880s, & very rare today: https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1884-ellis-co-facile-lever-operated-safety-bicycle/?tax=tour&tid=36

 

Glenrosa was/is indeed a whisky, distilled on Arran. Recent bottlings are perhaps best avoided:

 

Palate: Not at all pleasant I'm afraid. Industrial Alcohol of Low Quality with a bit of Refill Oak, Pepper, Sugared Cereals and Nut Shells.

Finish: Thin and Short with Stinging Young Grain Alcohol, Pepper, Sugared Cereals and light Licorice. Maybe hints of Citrus and Nutmeg. Quite Bitter in the end.

I added some Water but that makes it almost undrinkable.

 

Alongside the mirror is what looks like a gas pipe, but it seems to branch out into two strings of bulb sockets. If so that could push the date into the 1920s.

[kitpw]

3 hours ago, Simond said:

what are the three things to the right of Charles

...."she sells sea shells on the sea shore"....

 

It doesn't look much like a railway station. 

 

The thing that caught my eye is the unusual barrel that looks as if it's hooped with withies - perhaps that style of barrel making is particular to one area: I've no idea. 

 

Kit PW

A 1920s 7mm terminus layout: Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill

[Simond]

3 hours ago, K14 said:

Superb photo. Agree it's probably a seaside location (assuming that those are shells behind Charles)

 

Bertram's bicycle is a 'Facile' - mid to late 1880s, & very rare today: https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1884-ellis-co-facile-lever-operated-safety-bicycle/?tax=tour&tid=36

 

Glenrosa was/is indeed a whisky, distilled on Arran. Recent bottlings are perhaps best avoided:

 

 

 

 

Alongside the mirror is what looks like a gas pipe, but it seems to branch out into two strings of bulb sockets. If so that could push the date into the 1920s.

to (mis) quote M Python, esq, "not a whisky to be missed, one to be avoided at all costs"

 

There's a Facile in the collection at Liverpool;  https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/artifact/facile-bicycle-penny-farthing

made around 1880, donated  in 1910, probably gives us a window of time. 

 

This page gives a history, and a photo of a replica with matching pedal levers.

https://onlinebicyclemuseum.co.uk/1886-facile-geared-safety-bicycle-replica/

 

Kent Fire & Life Assurance - if this is the right one,  established 1802, but the document is dated 1879  so not helpful

Victorian London - Directories - Dickens's Dictionary of London, by Charles Dickens, Jr., 1879 - "Fire Insurance"

http://www.victorianlondon.org/finance/dickens-fireinsurance.htm

KENT FIRE INSURANCE CO., AND THE UNITED KENT LIFE ASSURANCE AND ANNUITY INSTITUTION OR CO. LIMITED, Maidstone. London Agency, 26, Budge-row, Cannon-st. Fire Office established 1802; Life Office 1824. Reserve in band £742,000.

Edited December 8, 2021 by Simond

[57xx]

5 hours ago, Simond said:

bikes are interesting, they all have brakes, the middle one has an unusual pedal arrangement, not seen that before, and the “safety” bicycle appears to have a trapezium frame, but no downtube, which massively reduces its stiffness & strength

 

There looks to be a downtube, but it is curved, the light coloured tube extending down from the saddle stem. The brakes on all of them look a bit scary, rubbing on the top of the front tyres!

No idea on location or date.

[Steamport Southport]

The station doesn't quite look Great Western. 

 

Don't forget railways advertised in "foreign" territory as well as in places not railway property. I've seen LMS poster boards on GWR stations in photographs for example.

 

I'm guessing it's somewhere in the South East possibly Kent is a clue. SECR?

 

I'll have a look but I think it's possibly Maidstone West.

 

 

Jason

[Harlequin]

The horizontal wooden bands in the rough render of the building should confirm identification when a candidate is found.

 

Note that the sunlight falling on the wall on the left is shaded from most of the rest of the scene. So the perpendicular arm of the building over the far doorway is probably a full storey or more in height, not just a porch or a porte cochere. In fact you can imagine that arm might be crossing an alleyway that leads into a cobbled courtyard beyond and our friends are standing in that alleyway.

 

There is writing above the nearer door - unreadable sadly. Does that suggest licensed premises?

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Harlequin

[Mikkel]

21 hours ago, Simond said:

Kent Fire & Life Assurance - if this is the right one,  established 1802, but the document is dated 1879  so not helpful

Victorian London - Directories - Dickens's Dictionary of London, by Charles Dickens, Jr., 1879 - "Fire Insurance"

http://www.victorianlondon.org/finance/dickens-fireinsurance.htm

KENT FIRE INSURANCE CO., AND THE UNITED KENT LIFE ASSURANCE AND ANNUITY INSTITUTION OR CO. LIMITED, Maidstone. London Agency, 26, Budge-row, Cannon-st. Fire Office established 1802; Life Office 1824. Reserve in band £742,000.

 

The company - based in Maidstone - is listed here as 1802-1901: 

 

https://insurancehistory.cii.co.uk/collections_firemark/kent-insurance-company-9/

 

- which arguably helps date the photo, although the sign could of course have been there for ages.

 

Edit: Or could it? Not sure how rigorously advertising signs were managed. On closer inspection this one does not seem to be an enamel sign, but a poster in a framed board. 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Mikkel

[Compound2632]

Certainly not outside a railway station of any company. The building is far too vernacular for that. It's a shop which might well be a Great Western ticket / parcels agent, among other things. I think that would put it in Great Western territory?

[Mikkel]

Ah yes, an agent. That would make good sense. 

 

On 08/12/2021 at 08:35, Simond said:

hanging next to the mirror are what appears to be oilskins or similar

 

Or meat?

 

[Mikkel]

Aha! 

https://www.reynaulds.com/products/Ferro-Train/M-308.aspx

 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Certainly not outside a railway station of any company. The building is far too vernacular for that. It's a shop which might well be a Great Western ticket / parcels agent, among other things. I think that would put it in Great Western territory?

 

But would a customer in say Mid Wales, Birmingham or Cornwall buy insurance from a company in Kent that was virtually a fire brigade. That's how many fire brigades started out. If your house was on fire they would only put it out if you had insurance. If you didn't they let it burn!

 

Here's some details of Kent Fire Brigade.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Fire_and_Rescue_Service

 

You may do now, but not back in the day. You used your local insurance company.

 

Here's a similar sign.

 

https://www.colonialsoldier.com/allthingsenglish/6747/

 

 

As regards the building. Look at the SER cottages. Most were built locally to local designs. Later they were replaced by new buildings but a few survived. Still think that's a rural station, the paving is far too flat and even to be a rural street.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/sandling_junction/index16.shtml

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

But would a customer in say Mid Wales, Birmingham or Cornwall buy insurance from a company in Kent that was virtually a fire brigade. That's how many fire brigades started out. If your house was on fire they would only put it out if you had insurance. If you didn't they let it burn!

 

Yes, that's the point that made me struggle with the idea of this being in Great Western territory but I think the provision of a timetable rather than just general poster advertising must surely point to a Great Western station being near at hand?

 

27 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

As regards the building. Look at the SER cottages. Most were built locally to local designs. Later they were replaced by new buildings but a few survived. Still think that's a rural station, the paving is far too flat and even to be a rural street.

 

But even at Sandling, the buildings shout "architect", whereas the ones in the photo say "artisan builder". (And, I think, one working in the vernacular tradition of south-east England, just to skewer my Great Western theory.)

 

On close inspection, the paving appears to be blocks or bricks with a diamond chequer pattern on them, like these Staffordshire Blue pavers. Such things were used on station platforms but to my mind the upper storey coming across at right angles, top left, suggests the entrance to an inn courtyard - the sort of place where our bicyclists might well have stopped for refreshment. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by Compound2632

[kitpw]

I think it's 'Kent Fire & Life Assurance' which suggests they sold life assurance policies, probably throughout England as well as insuring property against fire.  I agree with @Compound2632  - it's vernacular architecture and a shop of some kind:  it has hanging rails each side of the door and a basket (with decorative pendants) still hanging in place.  There is certainly a gas line running over the shopfront but also possibly a "wet string" (in the vernacular) of lamp holders without lamps on the projecting first storey or bridge.  I also agree it's likely to be GWR country and for the same reason - ads yes, anywhere; but a timetable suggests a nearby GWR station - Looe? St Ives? The porridge render is not untypical of either and both holiday destinations from an early date.

 

Thank you Mikkel for posting a Christmas/New Year quiz:  I wonder if the mystery is solvable?

 

Kit PW

 

p.s. Both Looe and St Ives had gasworks - Millpool (now car park) at Looe:  the Tate St Ives is built on the old gas works site.

Edited December 9, 2021 by kitpw
postscript!

[Simond]

The Kent Fire & Life thing might be a little misleading.  When were district public Fire Brigades established?  If my earlier find relating to the Kent entity is correct, they’d been around perhaps putting out fires in Maidstone, since 1802, but with the advent of publicly funded services, would logically branch out into other, related businesses, and certainly may have done by the time the Facile bike was invented.

 

I did Google a bit more on bikes, and it seems like a curved down tube was a common feature of nptionally modern frames.  The online bicycle museum site may prove useful, it has dated pictures of many models.

 

It would be very satisfying to solve the “where, when, and who” questions!

 

atb

Simon

[Simond]

Looks like I guessed well re fire brigades

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_fire_brigades_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Started in mid-late 1800’s, and as we’re seeking something between say 1880 & 1914, it may well be outside the Kent company’s area of fire insurance.  But how far…?

[ChicagoNick]

Great topic regarding the Edwardian GWR buildings.. anyone have any more recent modelling pictures or updates regarding station paint colors of the period ?..