"N Gauge" Three Bridges

[trisonic]

I've been putzing around with HO for a long time but an experience this week when detailing a loco brought home a fact of life to me. I'm left-handed but play guitar right handed and therefore my rather large hands have stubby calloused tips on my left hand. Age is also catching up with me and I had a great deal of difficulty fitting fine details to the HO locomotive. What to do?

 

I could go 1:48 O gauge because fitting the details may be easier but because of the "popularity" of bloody Lionel over here it seems that getting hold of 2 rail O in the UK is actually easier than it is in the USA. Daft really.

 

So I've decided to give "N" a go again. I built my first American N in London in the late Sixties/early Seventies but gave it up when travel became too extensive (and I also bought my own house in Harrow   - which became labour intensive just getting it into order).

 

The thing about N as we all know that at normal viewing distances you really can get away with not super detailing everything and the other plus is that my own tastes have moved to current operations (meaning I want to see long, sweeping double stacked trains).

 

I've also been inspired by "Santa Barbara" and "Gulf, Atlanta & Eastern". I went to the local model railway store in Piscataway yesterday (also used by Phil C and Rod S when in town). I never really looked at the N section previously but was pleased to see a massive selection of locomotives and freight cars actually, gasp, in stock!

 

My real concern right now is trackage. I picked up a length of Atlas Code 55 (it's really "floppy") it looks OK but their points don't... I like ME trackwork in other scales but their selection of turnouts isn't. I don't really fancy making the track work my self so I'm open to suggestions.

 

Micro trains freight cars look good enough to eat like candy.

 

I'm kind of thinking aloud really, if anyone wants to contribute to this thread please do so.

 

Best, Pete.

[long island jack]

Pete

And just think about those longggggggggggggggg trains!!!      

Ray

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Pete,

 

OK, I kinda see where you're going with this. Let's take a little walk...

 

1 - Those MT cars and Kato locos sure are mouth watering. However, with locos that exceed the $$$ of their HO equivalents, and cars which match or exceed their HO equivalents, a 4' long train can be half the scale ratio, and yet a factor of 2-5x more expensive.

 

It wouldn't be the first time that a modeller has changed scales, and has actively jettisoned all of the "old scale stuff" to finance the "new scale stuff". However, doing this requires a fair degree of "commitment to the change", and with the current state-of-play, it would not be a "one for one" transition.

 

2 - That same hand/eye issue which is causing frustration in detailing HO stock may manifest again when it comes to laying "N-gauge-critical" mechanically-reliable track. One can get away with 0.005" alignment issues in HO, same cannot be said for N, esp with long and relatively-heavy consists.

 

2a - ditto for soldering feeders and wiring to Code 55 rail

 

3 - Not all N scale stock is equipped with MT couplers. Fitting those can be challenging, and again must be weighed against the current-frustrations which are in-play.

 

4 - I foresee many Atlas rerailer and some "rerailing ramps" in yout future. Watching a friend setup and stage a show-layout staging-yard worth of multi-loco 20 actual-foot long DRGW trains was instructional from both a practical and time/motion P.o.V.

 

 

If the cross-country multi-mile long freights are really spinning your wheels, then N is logically the solution. You're not going to be able to achieve the same "freight worming it's way thru the canyons and accross the desert" look in a larger (than HO) scale without a massive cash injection, and your own completely empty Boeing Assembly Hanger.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mbell1975/2305206596/

 

However, equally, if hand/eye issues are prompting a change,
going smaller in scale may mitigate the "minimum detail threshold" issue,
but will make the mechanical issues that much more fine-tolerance critical.
(Scale irrelevant, unreliable operation is unreliable operation, and is rarely conducive to "fun").

 

For your consideration...

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[trisonic]

John, Not so over here. I just picked up the brand new Kato GE ES 44AC for just under US $70. I agree that a lot of comparable freight cars are priced quite close but then I've never equated cost with size, frankly.
Yes, I spotted some freight stock with Rapidos but none of the modern stuff that interests me.

In my mind it will be a Conrail shared assets with CSX and NS centred around an interchange with the BR & W at Three Bridges, NJ. There will be some long Intermodal traffic just passing through mixed with "local" freight some to the interchange. This is still happening prototypically right now in New Jersey.

 

I'll be stealing some of your ideas! The front view will be tightly controlled via a theatre styled proscenium arch and wings, sound will be centrally controlled via stereo speakers.

I will definitely need some re-railers though!

Best, Pete.

[dave1905]

The thing about N as we all know that at normal viewing distances you really can get away with not super detailing everything and the other plus is that my own tastes have moved to current operations (meaning I want to see long, sweeping double stacked trains).

 

Just for clarification, when you say "operations" and "long sweeping double stack trains", what you are really saying is you want to watch trains roll by.  That understanding is critical to how you will design your track plan and supporting staging, etc.  Also consider that by making that choice you potentially aren't gaining any "space" by going to N Scale.  A 10x10 room with a twice around the room track plan will have about 60-70 ft of run.  A 20 ft long HO train will cover 2 walls.  A 10 ft train in N scale covers 1 wall.  A long 20 ft train in N scale is back to covering 2 walls.  Double stacks operate on the highest speed main routes and operate at the highest speeds, meaning they rush through the scene in the shortest time.  Long trains means long staging areas.

 

Up side is that focusing on long double stack trains means you have simplified "operations" (meaning main track authorities, it will be all CTC), it means you have simplified "operations" (meaning car forwarding, its all essentially unit trains), it will mean you have simplified "operations" (meaning switching, classification and industry work, its all essentially unit trains).

 

Not saying not to go for it.  Just understand the implications.  It is just about as diametrically opposite a concept from the "switching plank" concept as you can get.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Pete,

 

I think you're onto something. I've picked up odd items of UK N every now and then, with a modern northern England theme in mind. What has put me off in the past is:

 

1. The couplings. Not that big an issue for modern US stock with the majority of recent items fitted with MT or compatible couplers. Dapol look to be sorting this out for UK modellers.

 

2. The track. Peco looks like, well, Peco. However Finetrax and Easitrac look like possible solutions in a UK context, whilst for US outline either Atlas 55 for appearance or Kato for convenience look entirely practical. I know Kato is over scale but weathered it looks convincing. Can't comment on Atlas points as I'm not familiar with them.

 

I would argue that for US outline it holds huge advantages.

[trisonic]

Dave, the answer is i will not be concentrating on the double stacked container train - they will just be passing through... Here near the end of their journey they are not progressing at 70mph - more like 30mph. They will act more like moving chicanes making life difficult for the locals, believe me this is what happens.   If I wanted scale length intermodals i think I would need more like 40 feet, even in N. It's impractical, obviously. For the hell of it I may include a NJT - like commuter service!

The real grit of the layout would be the interchange with the BR & W, the dropping off and picking up of freight cars. I can't figure out how to draw on this computer but if you Google map "Three Bridges, NJ" you'll see a single track mainline with a junction complete with reverse curve to the BR & W tracks comprising of about three sidings and a passing loop. If you then drop down to "Streetview" at one of the grade crossings you'll see a NS locomotive on the BR & W loop.

 

Jon, the plain code 55 Atlas track looks fine, way better than the Peco equivalent, however, the Atlas points are not so good. I need to check if Walthers/Shinohara have anything decent. The latest N locos are pretty good - in fact their bogies /trucks look better than, say, Heljians 00 diesels......

 

Best, Pete.

[Adrian Wintle]

If you haven't already been there, take a look at http://www.spookshow.net/trainstuff.html

 

My take on Atlas C55 is like yours. The plain track is nice, but the points are only ok. I'm not impressed by the ME ones I have either, but those two seem to be the only options without going the Peco route. ME flex track is a lot less flexible than the Atlas (which means it is more difficult to get smooth curves out of it), but their bridge track is very nice.

 

Like you, I find it is the rolling stock that is the expensive part, not the modern diesels. Some of it is quite good value though - the Kato Maxi IV or Maxi I for instance.

 

Also,don't discount the older stuff - Microtrains trucks fix a lot of things. I picked up a whole collection of Roundhouse modern(ish) boxcars and gons at about $1 a car at a show. Yes they needed new trucks/couplers, but I got a lot of reasonably good looking generic freight cars for very little money.

 

I'm currently in the process of making myself some NS C40-9Ws using the Kato C44-9W as a base.

 

Adrian

[goodmayes]

I can't pass on any N construction advice, 'cos I'm strictly 3.5mm. But A coupla thoughts from observing the lists over here. Apparently, only the very last few years production of N locos have the good mechanisms. So I wouldn't personally risk any older Ebay bargains.

 

The Proto87 guy has frogs and already made points for N in code 40 and 55. Might want to take a look at trying using them to upgrade Atlas switches, even if you you don't want to fully handlay.

 

Ted

[trisonic]

Adrian,

One of the sites I visited says that the Atlas C55 does not take kindly to Micro trains flanges. Is that true?

 

Ted, 

Going back to my OP  I just thought hand-laying may be excessively fiddly for my current patience.....

 

Best, Pete.

[roundhouse]

Pete

 

When I started building Santa Barbara I used Atlas code 55 track on the scenic area and the curves off scene. However I had to replace all the wheels in my Microtrains trucks with the fiber ones. I had started my N scale collection back I tbe 90's hence the manufacturers trhcks wherr replaced with Microtrains ones which had their standard coarse wheels which dont run well on Atlas code 55.

 

Locos all run fine on it as do MDC Roundhouse, Atlas and Athearn wheels.

 

These days most manufacturers now install a Microtrains compatible coupler and whilst switching may cause a few problems, running long fixed freights are fine so there is now less need to fit Microtrains trucks to these newer products.

 

I do like the Atlas switches / turnouts but they are not as strong as the Peco ones.

Also mixing Peco with Atlas ones does not look good on tbe scenic sections and I did have problems with alignment and electrical connectivity.

This lead to me reoplacing all the non scrnic Atlas track with Peco.

 

My eyesight isnt as good as it was whrn I started N scsle but re railing ramps really do help with putting stock on the track and I dont tend to detail N scale to the level my HO stock as most people just don't notice it when running lkng trains

[Adrian Wintle]

There are 3 (actually 4, but the very old the rib-backed ones are rarely seen) variations of Microtrains wheels.

 

Until a couple of years ago, Microtrains cars and trucks came with 'pizza cutter' wheels that were not friendly to (Atlas/ME) Code 55.

Available at the same time were 'fine' wheels that worked on Code 55, but were perhaps a bit too fine.

 

They have replaced these both with a 'mid' wheel that works on pretty much everything.

 

The change basically occurred at the same time as the change in packaging - blister on card has the old wheels, while the single-piece plastic package has the new ones.

 

Adrian

[trisonic]

Many, many thanks, Ian and Adrian.

Changing scales can be a minefield.....

 

Atlas do  #7 and #10 turnouts and they do no look so bad - a bit of finagling may do the trick. The store had none of the high number turnouts in stock yesterday.....

 

I did not want to go below #8's even on the shortline as prototypically that is their lowest #, I guess #7's are not so different.

 

Do really want to avoid Peco because they are overpriced over here, really. Of course the track I'll be modelling is all loose heeled, which helps!

 

Best, Pete.

[roundhouse]

I used the fine ones and they work.. Dare I say it 'fine'

However I would have used the mid flange ones if they had been available a few years ago.

[Adrian Wintle]

 So I wouldn't personally risk any older Ebay bargains.

This is where the locomotive encyclopedia created by Mark (Spookshow) that I linked above is valuable. He has bought and reviewed just about every N-scale North American locomotive ever made.

 

Adrian

[trisonic]

Yep, extremely useful site, Adrian. I'm plowing through all the data!

 

Best, Pete.

[Adrian Wintle]

Yep, extremely useful site, Adrian. I'm plowing through all the data!

 

Best, Pete.

 

He used Atlas C55 for his 'Shay Stadium' layout and so has some opinions about it on his blog.

 

Adrian

[Lawrence]

Pete, welcome to a world of frustration   but nonetheless hugely enjoyable.  When I started buying US stock I found the early Life Like stuff wouldn't run of code 55 because of the big wheel flanges, so I have been more selective in recent times.  Whilst I may be wide of the mark here I am sure I have read, on several occasions, about layout builders using 55 for the main lines and 80 for goods or fiddle yards where the detail is less important.  However it works out, have fun with the new stuff and enjoy running some trains

[Barry Ten]

I don't have much useful experience with Atlas code 55 but the only two locos of mine which tend to bump a bit on Peco are the two Lifelike SD7s. I think the flanges are just a tiny bit deeper - not enough to cause problems, just enough to make them rumble a bit. In other respects, they run great - which is good, because if the first N scale loco I bought had been a dog, I might have given up.

[DavidLong]

John, Not so over here. I just picked up the brand new Kato GE ES 44AC for just under US $70.

 

Best, Pete.

 

Pete,

 

For quality and value for money US N scale diesel locos are hard to beat. Just recently, via ebay, I bought an Atlas Maine Central RS11 for the equivalent of £31 and he only charged me a tenner (pounds that is) to ship it over. It looks great and runs like a dream.

Atlas have recently released their GP7 in Maine Central green and gold and I have seen the DC version for $88 (£53) and the dcc fitted version for $110 (£66). With a bit more searching it may be possible to find them even cheaper.

In comparison Hattons are taking pre-orders for a couple of UK mid-sized diesels at the following prices for DC/DCC fitted:

Class 33   £86/£103

Class 22   £102/£119

 

Manufacturers do seem to have a bit of a block when it comes to N scale turnouts as none of the RTR ones are entirely satisfactory in their looks. This is somewhat difficult to understand when it is perfectly possible to build your own turnouts which look far superior so how come such giants as Peco and Atlas make it look so difficult. By the way, the Shinohara stuff looks worse than either of those and it is Code 70. If you did decide to make some of your own, Fast Tracks (http://www.handlaidtrack.com/) have an interesting site but otherwise I would suggest gritting your teeth and going for Atlas Code 55.

 

David

[trisonic]

David,

The Fast Tracks guys are great but the initial costs of their jigs make even me blanch! I still may build my own though even though I've said I'll never make anything smaller than 0....

Shinohara are no longer making N gauge track is what I've found out today - so there is not a lot of choice right now.

I do believe that the larger # Atlas c55 can be made to look better fairly easily, we'll see. As I said their flexitrack looks very fine.

 

Best, Pete.

[TT3]

I know I am late coming to this discussion but as a recent convert to US N scale i would recommend it to anyone.

 

The cost advantages are considerable compared with UK N, last week i bought a new Bachmann 2-6-0 with DCC for less than $90 and a RS-3 for $70.

 

The spookshow website is invaluable, especially for older bargains to seewhat can and cant be done.

 

IF you are in the US ebay is ideal - not everyone posts OS and the cost for those is alot compared to domestic.

 

Another huge advantage of staring now is you can set your own track/wheel/coupler standards as you dont have any legacy stock and as almost everyting new now comes with knucle couplers it is not too hard to standardise.

 

I am going DCC (decided a little late but fixed now), peco code 80 (avaliability here and i have old minitrix) all with MTs.

[trisonic]

Thanks!

I purchased a Micro Trains CSX Centre Beam freight car yesterday. It is exquisite. Runs perfectly on Atlas c55 and has a nice little heft to it.

As I said before American N is also not so afflicted by "JIT"  as  HO is. Most people have some interesting stock.

 

Best, Pete.

[F-UnitMad]

 

As I said before American N is also not so afflicted by "JIT"  as  HO is.

"JIT" ???

 

Having done US N 20-odd years ago, it is the only outline I would consider doing in N again these days. In fact things have improved so much recently that my decision to move up to HO would've been a much harder one to make nowadays...

[roundhouse]

British N scale is so much better these days but its still not up to the standards of US outline stuff in terms of reliability and staying coupled / on the track. However with some tweeking / modifications it is almost there.

 

Cant comment on Continental European and Japanese N scale though.