Missing Signal - Bakewell

[Alister_G]

Hi,

 

I wonder if those knowledgeable about signalling could help.

 

I'm modelling Bakewell station on the Midland main line, and I have turned my attention to the signalling.

 

I have found images of some of the signals on the ever useful disused-stations.org.uk website.

 

I have the down home and up starter on the same gantry at the end of the down platform, shown here:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index83.shtml

 

and the up home on its own at the end of the goods yard, here:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index102.shtml

 

but I can't find any photos of the down starter.

 

In the 60's there was a ground signal added just before the crossover at the end of the platforms, as shown here:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index7.shtml

 

but that wasn't present earlier (probably 1930's)

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index30.shtml

 

and to my mind is not in the right place to be the starter, anyway.

 

I would expect the down starter to be somewhere on the left or centre of the third picture, possibly near the signal box, but there clearly isn't one.

 

As I know sod all about signalling, can anyone shed some light on whether there should be a down starter, and if so where it would be?

[LMS2968]

Well, I'm not a signalling expert either, but you're right about the dummy in Photo 3: It's to allow movement back through the crossover and into the yard. In earlier times, this would have been controlled by handsignals from the box, which is very close, but the Railway Inspectorate weren't fond of the arrangement as it could allow conflicting movements, whereas the dummy would be interlocked with the pointwork and other signals.

 

I suspect that the starter is positioned further up the line beyond the goods shed, especially if there was an exit from the yard up there.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The platforms went through the bridge. So down starter would be "off-scene" at the end of the down platform (with a banner repeater somewhere along the platform).

[beast66606]

The platforms went through the bridge. So down starter would be "off-scene" at the end of the down platform (with a banner repeater somewhere along the platform).

 

Thats the up direction Joseph, and it was mounted on the same post as the down home - see link 1

 

The down starter would be well past the goods shed, probably 200yds or so, to allow for shunt moves into the connection at the far end of the yard.

 

As mentioned provision of a ground signal gave additional protection (not really in the interlocking as the reversal of the point lever would lock the home signals anyway) as it would detect the position of the point blades, if they weren't fully over the signal wouldn't clear and it also removed the risk of confusion if the bobby shouted "Ok mate" and there were two trains awaiting his command ...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thats the up direction Joseph, and it was mounted on the same post as the down home - see link 1

 

The down starter would be well past the goods shed, probably 200yds or so, to allow for shunt moves into the connection at the far end of the yard.

 

As mentioned provision of a ground signal gave additional protection (not really in the interlocking as the reversal of the point lever would lock the home signals anyway) as it would detect the position of the point blades, if they weren't fully over the signal wouldn't clear and it also removed the risk of confusion if the bobby shouted "Ok mate" and there were two trains awaiting his command ...

 

Sadly, my computer does not "like" those links, so I could not see the photos.

[The Stationmaster]

One thing worth remembering about Midland signalling practice (as say compared with the GWR or NER) was that it tended to be sparing with stop signals and not provide one to protect every single point end or potential conflict.   Hence here the situation would have been exactly as Beast has described with the Home Signal providing the Down line protection for the crossover to the goods shed etc.

 

This arrangement clearly offered economy in the provision of signals and in respect of most everyday probably wasn't a constraint at most wayside stations although it could present unnecessary difficulties or requirements for some shunting moves.  So basically all down to trying to understand the way the different companies did things.

[Alister_G]

Thanks to you all for answering.

 

Dave, thanks as always, you know far more about the layout of Bakewell than I do but as I remember it from visiting, the track curve tightens after the goods shed, so the starter can't be far beyond it or it wouldn't be visible from the end of the platform. I wonder why they didn't put it on the same post as the Up home.

 

Mike, thanks very much, it's great that I can get answers like yours which fill in the  background of signalling practices for the different regions. Tell me, what's the difference between a "Home" signal, and a "Stop" signal?

 

From their positions at Bakewell, I take it you would only enter the goods yard / station area when permitted to do so by what I've called the Home signals, but as this was the through line London to Manchester I would guess it would be a rarity for an express to be held at these signals?

 

Also, for a through train, would the starters have to be "off" for the train to pass through the station, or would they only apply to a train stopped at the platform?

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Down Starter was, IIRC, about 500 yards north of the station, in a spot where it was difficult to get a picture without going across the fields.

[LMS2968]

This is a very simplified explanation, and even so, there were exceptions, but any length of railway route was divided into SECTIONS, with a signal box at each end. The length in front of the signal box was known as STATION LIMITS, and was usually shorter than the sections, but contained the platforms, yards etc. The principle of the signalling - ABSOLUTE BLOCK - was that only one train at a time could be in a section, so there was a space maintained between successive trains.

 

Each section was controlled by a STARTING SIGNAL, which would be at danger if the section ahead (or a quarter mile beyond it) were blocked. Station Limits were protected by a visually similar HOME SIGNAL, likewise if the station were blocked. Both Home and Starters were absolute: if one or other was at Danger, the train had to stop on the approach to it. To give drivers earlier warning, there would also be a DISTANT SIGNAL: if either the Home or Starter were at Danger, the Distant would be at caution. The train was allowed to pass the Distant, but must be prepared to stop before the Home. Most people believe that the Home / Starters were the important ones as they dictated onward movement, but the Distant was the one which told the driver the state of the road ahead and therefore was the more informative.

 

There were extentions to this, with Inner and Outer Homes and Distants, and Starters and Advanced Starters to allow some flexibility, usually if there was a junction involved. It was also possible to use the Home as the Starter for the box in advance, depending on the length of the section.

[AberdeenBill]

Hi acg_mr,

 

You may know this but there was a nice model of Bakewell in Railway Modeller in about 1970 or so.

 

Good luck,

Bill

[AberdeenBill]

One thing worth remembering about Midland signalling practice (as say compared with the GWR or NER) was that it tended to be sparing with stop signals and not provide one to protect every single point end or potential conflict.   Hence here the situation would have been exactly as Beast has described with the Home Signal providing the Down line protection for the crossover to the goods shed etc.

 

This arrangement clearly offered economy in the provision of signals and in respect of most everyday probably wasn't a constraint at most wayside stations although it could present unnecessary difficulties or requirements for some shunting moves.  So basically all down to trying to understand the way the different companies did things.

 

It's always interesting to learn how different railways did things, but this almost seems unduly economical, as the down starter apparently cannot be seen from the paltform or even maybe from the signalbox??

 

Bill

[Alister_G]

Hi acg_mr,

 

You may know this but there was a nice model of Bakewell in Railway Modeller in about 1970 or so.

 

Good luck,

Bill

 

Hi Bill, yes thanks, I was lucky enough to be able to find copies of RM with the layout articles on the web. It was October 74 to  July 75.

 

Cheers

 

Al.

 

The Down Starter was, IIRC, about 500 yards north of the station, in a spot where it was difficult to get a picture without going across the fields.

That's great, thanks.

[Alister_G]

This is a very simplified explanation, and even so, there were exceptions, but any length of railway route was divided into SECTIONS, with a signal box at each end. The length in front of the signal box was known as STATION LIMITS, and was usually shorter than the sections, but contained the platforms, yards etc. The principle of the signalling - ABSOLUTE BLOCK - was that only one train at a time could be in a section, so there was a space maintained between successive trains.

 

Each section was controlled by a STARTING SIGNAL, which would be at danger if the section ahead (or a quarter mile beyond it) were blocked. Station Limits were protected by a visually similar HOME SIGNAL, likewise if the station were blocked. Both Home and Starters were absolute: if one or other was at Danger, the train had to stop on the approach to it. To give drivers earlier warning, there would also be a DISTANT SIGNAL: if either the Home or Starter were at Danger, the Distant would be at caution. The train was allowed to pass the Distant, but must be prepared to stop before the Home. Most people believe that the Home / Starters were the important ones as they dictated onward movement, but the Distant was the one which told the driver the state of the road ahead and therefore was the more informative.

 

There were extentions to this, with Inner and Outer Homes and Distants, and Starters and Advanced Starters to allow some flexibility, usually if there was a junction involved. It was also possible to use the Home as the Starter for the box in advance, depending on the length of the section.

 

 

Thank you, that's very clear.

 

I'm going to have to do some reading about signalling.

[beast66606]

A stop signal is just that, a signal at which trains stop.

 

A home or a starting, or any other name (there were quite a few) are just the names given to stop signals in specific locations or for specific requirements.

 

Distant signals provide advanced warning and therefore braking to the stop signals, the distant can only be cleared if all the stop signals for the controlling box are also clear (and when boxes are close together there are other things which are taken into account to ensure adequate braking)

[Grovenor]

It's always interesting to learn how different railways did things, but this almost seems unduly economical, as the down starter apparently cannot be seen from the paltform or even maybe from the signalbox??

There was no need to see it from the platform, a passenger train, even a stopper would normally be on clear signals and the driver would know that from the state of the distant when he passed it. If the situation changed while he was stopped the Bobby would advise the driver. The starter was placed to cater for freights departing from using the yard.

Regards

Keith

 

(Edited to keep Beast happier)

[beast66606]

There was no need to see it from the platform, a passenger train, even a stopper would normally be on clear signals and the driver would know that from the state of the distant when he passed it. If the situation changed while he was stopped the Bobby advise the driver. The starter was placed to cater for freights departing from the yard.

Regards

Keith

 

Provided the distant was clear the driver would assume the starter was off, but would keep a sharp lookout in case it was replaced to danger, the signalman would wave a red flag / lamp from the box if there was an urgent need to stop the train (or at least get the brakes applied) sooner. Whether all passengers ran under clear signals is open to conjecture, a freight setting back into the yard at the next box would mean adverse signals at Bakewell, the days when all trains (ideally) need at least 2 greens was a long time away when Bakewell saw it's last train.

 

I doubt it was placed for freights departing the yard, it was more than likely placed to allow freights to run forward and setback over the connection into the yard without entering the forward section.

[Southernman46]

War story.........................

 

 

Once upon a time on a region that shall not mentioned but is east of the Thames, a Driver stopped at a signal and phoned the Signalman (not Signaller - gives a time when when this happened) and reported that he he thought he'd missed a signal................Signalman says proceed to next at caution and obey all others etc etc,,,,

 

On investigation - missing signal found to be lying on its side in the cess (a track renewal having occurred over the weekend) - guess what - nobody knew nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

and "they" still tried to discipline the driver for passing a signal with unobserved aspect (rates as a SPAD)..........but thats what good union reps are for.............................

[James]

On investigation - missing signal found to be lying on its side in the cess (a track renewal having occurred over the weekend) - guess what - nobody knew nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

There's wonderful voice comm of a conversation between a driver and a signaller reporting a signal lying in the cess - "it's a green'un!" says the driver and you can almost hear the signaller thinking whether it's OK for the driver to proceed! The conversation goes on for some time!

[Alister_G]

Provided the distant was clear the driver would assume the starter was off, but would keep a sharp lookout in case it was replaced to danger, the signalman would wave a red flag / lamp from the box if there was an urgent need to stop the train (or at least get the brakes applied) sooner. Whether all passengers ran under clear signals is open to conjecture, a freight setting back into the yard at the next box would mean adverse signals at Bakewell, the days when all trains (ideally) need at least 2 greens was a long time away when Bakewell saw it's last train.

 

I doubt it was placed for freights departing the yard, it was more than likely placed to allow freights to run forward and setback over the connection into the yard without entering the forward section.

Dave, was the next box at Hassop, or was there an intermediate section between the two? I can't think of one off the top of my head, and it's only about two miles between them.

['CHARD]

I recommend a look on Old Maps:

 

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

 

Co-ordinates 422500, 370000 centre on where the line is crossed by the A619 Baslow Road.  If you select the 1955 map there's 'S.P' marked here, for 'signal post,' but no 'S.B.'  This is approx mid way between Bakewell and Hassop stations.

 

Google Street View shows what look like railway cottages where the A619 crosses the trackbed (it's hard to imagine any other original purpose), but no evidence of space for a 'box there.

[LMS2968]

If you want historical accuracy, and be able to read many treatise on signalling, the Home and Starting Signals need to be recognised. These are the terms used for over a century in various Rule Books, including the BR Black Rulebook of 1950, and possibly the BR Red Rule Book of 1972 (although I'm not certain there, not currently having a copy), and also various Railway Inspectors' reports into accidents. Certainly both were stop signals in that a train was not allowed to pass either, even by a buffer, if displaying a danger aspect, but they did have seperate names and trying to merge them into a single identity doesn't help understanding of the situation at the time.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I recommend a look on Old Maps:

 

http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html

 

Co-ordinates 422500, 370000 centre on where the line is crossed by the A619 Baslow Road.  If you select the 1955 map there's 'S.P' marked here, for 'signal post,' but no 'S.B.'  This is approx mid way between Bakewell and Hassop stations.

 

Google Street View shows what look like railway cottages where the A619 crosses the trackbed (it's hard to imagine any other original purpose), but no evidence of space for a 'box there.

The signal posts there would probably be Hassop Down Distant and Bakewell Up Distant.

 

If you look at co-ordinates 422144, 369405 there is a signal post on the Down line which shows clearly on the 1:2500 map for 1922. That would be Bakewell Down Starter.

[beast66606]

If you want historical accuracy, and be able to read many treatise on signalling, the Home and Starting Signals need to be recognised. These are the terms used for over a century in various Rule Books, including the BR Black Rulebook of 1950, and possibly the BR Red Rule Book of 1972 (although I'm not certain there, not currently having a copy), and also various Railway Inspectors' reports into accidents. Certainly both were stop signals in that a train was not allowed to pass either, even by a buffer, if displaying a danger aspect, but they did have seperate names and trying to merge them into a single identity doesn't help understanding of the situation at the time.

 

Let's just stick to Bakewell and not drift off topic.

[The Stationmaster]

It's always interesting to learn how different railways did things, but this almost seems unduly economical, as the down starter apparently cannot be seen from the paltform or even maybe from the signalbox??

 

Bill

 

Hopefully it would be visible from the signalbox but if not the Signalman would have a repeater to tell him the state of the signal and its lamp.  Beyond that there is no problem at all as far as the platform staff or a Driver are concerned in normal working although things could get awkward during fog in particular but the signalbox lies between the two signals which helps enormously.

 

The important point concerns the Driver  - if the Distant Signal is 'off' he will know (at Bakewell) that both the Home and the Starter Signal are off, wherever they happen to be sited.  If the Distant is 'on' and standing at Caution he will expect to find the Home Signal at danger and prepare to stop at it.  However if - when his train approaches it - he finds the Home Signal at 'off' he will then know that the Starter is also off (assuming the Signalman is working his signals correctly).  But if the Home Signal is still at danger as his train approaches and does not come off until his train is virtually at a stand at it - or probably at Bakewell until he has whistled for the signal - he will understand from his knowledge of the Rules that the Starter will also be at danger and that he should approach it prepared to stop at it (unless the Signalman gives him a very unofficial handsignal to indicate that signal is clear as his train passes the signalbox.  N.B. the handsignal normally used was a proper one but its use in this circumstance, while quite common, was highly unofficial). 

 

Different names for stop signals - This link is very Great Western but it does, I hope, include in my posts some basic explanations of the functions of some stop signals and their relationship to the Block Section and Station Limits (an expression which has nothing at all to do with the presence or otherwise of a station).  Look at Post No. 4 in the thread but other parts of the tread might contain some useful info as well. 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48504-gwr-signals-and-where-they-go/

[The Stationmaster]

 It was also possible to use the Home as the Starter for the box in advance, depending on the length of the section.

 

Sorry to go OT but this does need to be corrected.  The Home Signal for one 'box could hardly be the Starter for the 'box in Advance (physically impossible) but the Starter at one 'box could also be the Home Signal for the 'box in advance which would arguably give a block section equal in length to the thickness of the signal post.  However we are now into a specialised signal operation method called 'slotting'  (where two signalboxes control the working of a single signal arm) and some very specialised block signalling arrangements and/or other signal controls which go far beyond what is relevant at Bakewell).