NER P4 (diagram, not gauge!) Hopper wagon details

[Loxborough]

Hello all,

 

I am currently building up what will be a coal empties train for my ECML layout (no images yet as I have so far done nothing more interesting than weather up a dose of Bachmann RTR POs) and have taken it into my head to include a rake of company hoppers (some made up backstory about a London based coal user with hopper dischagring facilities and none of his own wagons...).

 

The obvious candidates would be the Parkside Dundas steel hopper, the 51L diagram P5 and the Coopercraft 20T, and all these are either on order or in the 'to do' drawer. 

 

However, in addition to all of the above, I have taken it into my head to scratchbuild a NER P4. Tatlow vol 2 shows a diagram and some images from which I can work for the exterior, but I have only the vaguest idea of what the thing looked like Inside. I was wondering whether the collective knowledgebase of RMWEB might be able to help me out...

 

Thanks,

 

George

[jwealleans]

David Geen does a couple of diagrams as well. 

 

There's a basic drawing in the NERA 1904 wagon diagrams book, page 37. 

[Adam]

David Geen does a couple of diagrams as well. 

 

There's a basic drawing in the NERA 1904 wagon diagrams book, page 37. 

 

Including the item labelled in David Geens catalogue as a P4 [it isn't see Tim lewis's post below]. This LNER design  was amazingly, wooden underframes and all, built by BR (on an LNER order, but still). David's catalogue can be found here:

 

http://www.davidgeen.co.uk/catalogue/ner.htm

 

Dad's done a P4 (in EM!) I seem to remember that  the corners weren't as good a fit as they could have been but the rest was ok. The online version doesn't seem to be up to date - I know that I've got one of the 'round end wagons' pictured at the bottom of the page. This too is a hopper, but I can't recall the diagram no. [P3?] and in any event, mine was modelled after one sold into colliery/NCB service.

 

Adam

[Mark Saunders]

There is an ex Lambton version at Darlington that has been stored for about twenty years with no work done on it!

 

This is the link to the VCT survey.

 

http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=1459

 

Mark Saunders

[micklner]

51L do a P4 ,D&S version comes up on ebay as well

[scottiedog]

51L do a P4 ,D&S version comes up on ebay as well

The 51L kit is a P5 and is ex D&S Models. When I started the 51L range many years ago I bought the masters from Dan. As mentioned the kit is now available from Andrew at 51L, often cheaper than you can buy it on ebay!!!!

The P4, as previously mentioned, is available from David Geen, and again was originally produced by myself - long story! The attributed website photograph is incorrect - it is the LNER Dia 137 12t Hopper Wagon. The P4 in the round ended hopper wagon, a few photographs below. Again, often cheaper from David than on ebay!!

The P4s lasted longer than the P5s - 3236 and 189 respectively in 1939.The P5s were synonymous with the Central Division of the old North Eastern Railway. It might be more appropriate to consider the LNER D72 and D137 Hoppers, which were first built in the early 1930s, for your project. Once more available from Davin Geen. Tatlows LNER Wagons Books - Vol 2 and Vol 4A give histories of these wagons 

[51235]

Hi George

 

Have you seen the article in MRJ no 131?

 

There is an article on scratchbuilding a NER P4 hopper in 7mm. The article includes a drawing showing the wagon in plan view, and detailed overhead shot of the constructed wagon.

 

Hope this helps

 

Andy

[billbedford]

Ne'er mind the P4 hoppers, has anyone any info on the P3s?

[Loxborough]

First of all, thanks all for the wealth of really helpful information.

 

Despite the plethora of available kits (some of which I was not aware of; more on that below) I still have this silly desire to schratch build a P4 so will be looking out the MRJ; thanks very much Andy for the steer.

 

Now, kits of which I was not aware; David Green. I have spotted a few on his website (esp the D72 and D137; thanks Scotiedog for the information) but I have had no response to my enquiry e-mail. Does anybody happen to know if he is still operating, or is temporarily unavailable for some reason? I would very much like to get my hands on some of his kits, and would prefer to get them straight from the source, rather than e-bay, if possible?

 

Thanks again all,

 

George 

[jwealleans]

David Geen (note spelling) is certainly still trading.  He usually has a stand at York.  I've had replies by email but he may not check every day, be away, or have a problem;  a phone call may be a good idea. 

 

Bill B - have you seen the P3 diagram the NERA publish?  It's very basic but has some dimensions.

[scottiedog]

David's website has not been updated for some time so the information thereon is not current. Also he is unable to take orders via the internet. However, I will be seeing him in the next few days and if you would pm me with your name and address, I will get him to post his most recent price list to you. He does offer a mail order service, for which he takes payment by cheque or credit card

 

He does have an e-mail address but just at the moment I can't remember it. It's a senior thing!!!! If you want to speak to him on the phone his UK number is 01429 269600

 

He has not had a stand at the York Show for a few years now, prefering to take one at the scale society events. His next outing is at Scalefour North in April.

 

Let me know if you need any further help.

[micklner]

Prices are from 2009 . If you do see him can you ask him to update his webpage. I would appreciatte a list too, if obtained.

[Tim Lewis]

Including the P4, some of which, amazingly, wooden underframes and all, were built by BR (on an LNER order, but still). David's catalogue can be found here:

Are you sure?  I think they built some of the later LNER dia 72/137s, but not P4s I don't think?

 

Anyway, I seem to remember that there was an article in the NERA Express magazine a while back, with a 'proper' drawing (can't remember when it was though).

[scottiedog]

Are you sure?  I think they built some of the later LNER dia 72/137s, but not P4s I don't think?

 

Anyway, I seem to remember that there was an article in the NERA Express magazine a while back, with a 'proper' drawing (can't remember when it was though).

1915 seems to be the last year that the P4s were built. A batch of 300 wagons identical to LNER Dia 137 was built at Faverdale (Darlington) in 1949 to BR Dia 1/140. Nos were B400200-499

[Worsdell forever]

Some of my D72 & D137s all David's kits.

[Adam]

Are you sure?  I think they built some of the later LNER dia 72/137s, but not P4s I don't think?

 

Anyway, I seem to remember that there was an article in the NERA Express magazine a while back, with a 'proper' drawing (can't remember when it was though).

 

You're quite right - this is an error on my part which I haven't got around to correcting. I'll edit to highlight your post.

 

Adam

[Porcy Mane]

 A batch of 300 wagons identical to LNER Dia 137 was built at Faverdale (Darlington) in 1949 to BR Dia 1/140. Nos were B400200-499

 

Hello Dave,

Hope you don’t mind, but please allow me the liberty of commenting on the possible incorrectness of your statement re the Dia.1/140 wagons.

I understand fully why and what your saying, as that info has been published  (and repeated) widely over the years by folk far more knowledgeable than I, the most recent publication that I’m aware of, coming out in 2012.

I suspect previous researchers have been misled by a mistake courtesy of the “Compiler” of the original BR diagram book.

 

Let me Explain:

As Lloyd Grossman used to say, "Let's look at the evidence".

 

Page 140 of the BR Diagram book( http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight1Issue.pdf )shows what is undoubtedly a ex LNER Dia.137 wagon with the distinctive bottom two planks above the solebar being sloped inwards.

We know the number range of these 300 BR built wagons to be B400200-B400499.

So far, so good...

 

Next, take a look at these two pics of wagons that lie within the Dia.1/140 number range on Mr Bartlett’s (Who else  ) site

 

B400287  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhopper13/h7D2CA78#h1f3d48dd

 

B400343  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhopper13/h7D2CA78#h15a72352

 

Also, my mate (who may be along to join us in a minute and with whom this has been debated on occasion over more years than either of us would admit) has photographs that he has taken himself or are in his collection of B400244, B400363 and B400443 and these wagons like Mr Bartletts above have the entire side sloped and are definitely based on the later ex LNER Dia. 193.

As an aside B400244 and B400443 were photographed in BR revenue earning service whereas, B400363 was in NCB ownership at Brodsworth Colliery.

Those five wagon numbers give a fairly wide spread across the 300 built by BR.

 

Has anybody ever seen a photograph of a 13 ton hopper based on LNER diagram 137 in the BR diagram 1/140 number range? I would tend to doubt it but if anyone should answer, “yes”, it will blow quite a large hole in the theory.

 

The conclusion we’ve come to is as regard the BR Diagram book is wrong for Dia. 1/140. It shows as an Ex LNER dia. 137 by mistake whereas it should have been the later ex LNER Diagram 193.

Either that or… Faverdale built 300 wagons of the wrong type.  

 

As I said at the beginning of this missive, “I’m not trying to be critical”. I’m just attempting to solve a puzzle.

I’d be only too happy for anyone to prove to the contrary.

 

Cheers,

Porcy

[Tim Lewis]

Has anybody ever seen a photograph of a 13 ton hopper based on LNER diagram 137 in the BR diagram 1/140 number range? I would tend to doubt it but if anyone should answer, “yes”, it will blow quite a large hole in the theory.

 

The conclusion we’ve come to is as regard the BR Diagram book is wrong for Dia. 1/140. It shows as an Ex LNER dia. 137 by mistake whereas it should have been the later ex LNER Diagram 193.

Either that or… Faverdale built 300 wagons of the wrong type.  

Well, that's interesting.  I was thinking that I had seen a photo somewhere, but the more I think about it, it may have been a photo of a model (with what is now an apparently incorrect number!)

[scottiedog]

Hello Dave,

Hope you don’t mind, but please allow me the liberty of commenting on the possible incorrectness of your statement re the Dia.1/140 wagons.

I understand fully why and what your saying, as that info has been published  (and repeated) widely over the years by folk far more knowledgeable than I, the most recent publication that I’m aware of, coming out in 2012.

I suspect previous researchers have been misled by a mistake courtesy of the “Compiler” of the original BR diagram book.

 

Let me Explain:

As Lloyd Grossman used to say, "Let's look at the evidence".

 

Page 140 of the BR Diagram book( http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BRFreight1Issue.pdf )shows what is undoubtedly a ex LNER Dia.137 wagon with the distinctive bottom two planks above the solebar being sloped inwards.

We know the number range of these 300 BR built wagons to be B400200-B400499.

So far, so good...

 

Next, take a look at these two pics of wagons that lie within the Dia.1/140 number range on Mr Bartlett’s (Who else  ) site

 

B400287  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhopper13/h7D2CA78#h1f3d48dd

 

B400343  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brhopper13/h7D2CA78#h15a72352

 

Also, my mate (who may be along to join us in a minute and with whom this has been debated on occasion over more years than either of us would admit) has photographs that he has taken himself or are in his collection of B400244, B400363 and B400443 and these wagons like Mr Bartletts above have the entire side sloped and are definitely based on the later ex LNER Dia. 193.

As an aside B400244 and B400443 were photographed in BR revenue earning service whereas, B400363 was in NCB ownership at Brodsworth Colliery.

Those five wagon numbers give a fairly wide spread across the 300 built by BR.

 

Has anybody ever seen a photograph of a 13 ton hopper based on LNER diagram 137 in the BR diagram 1/140 number range? I would tend to doubt it but if anyone should answer, “yes”, it will blow quite a large hole in the theory.

 

The conclusion we’ve come to is as regard the BR Diagram book is wrong for Dia. 1/140. It shows as an Ex LNER dia. 137 by mistake whereas it should have been the later ex LNER Diagram 193.

Either that or… Faverdale built 300 wagons of the wrong type.  

 

As I said at the beginning of this missive, “I’m not trying to be critical”. I’m just attempting to solve a puzzle.

I’d be only too happy for anyone to prove to the contrary.

 

Cheers,

Porcy

Hmm, food for thought. The information I gave was from the book to which you refer. 

[Axlebox]

• The conclusion we’ve come to is as regard the BR Diagram book is wrong for Dia. 1/140. It shows as an Ex LNER dia. 137 by mistake whereas it should have been the later ex LNER Diagram 193.

  Either that or… Faverdale built 300 wagons of the wrong type.

I concur and couldn't have put it better myself Porcy...The diagram book error has sent researchers off in the wrong direction for years and you've nailed that one in your usual well researched/informative and thorough manner...now when are we going to see this research in print...

 

Duncan

[hmrspaul]

 

• The conclusion we’ve come to is as regard the BR Diagram book is wrong for Dia. 1/140. It shows as an Ex LNER dia. 137 by mistake whereas it should have been the later ex LNER Diagram 193.

  Either that or… Faverdale built 300 wagons of the wrong type.

I concur and couldn't have put it better myself Porcy...The diagram book error has sent researchers off in the wrong direction for years and you've nailed that one in your usual well researched/informative and thorough manner...now when are we going to see this research in print...

 

Duncan

In the corrections to Peter Tatlows book when 4B comes out. (I have a copy of the corrections)

 

Diagrams are not drawings. An example which is in print is the Gudgeon D1/569. Don Rowland even suggests it had a wooden frame. BR issued a correction diagram which shows the body had steel (not wooden) stanchions and framing and the frame was updated to being steel with standard buffers and axleboxes of that period. The Barrowmere books show the replacement.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Loxborough]

Those of you who have been kind enough to point me towards the information I asked for at the top of this thread may be interested to learn that the build has started, and will be available warts, carbuncles and all in a workbench thread; here.

 

Thanks again,

 

G