Jeff Smith Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I don't think any manufacturer would deliberately release a faulty product to see what reaction they got This is an assembly fault or material fault as there's nothing wrong with the design as far as I can see. The only change I would make is a metal motion bracket but I have plenty of locos with plastic ones that are fine after years. Neither of those would necessarily show up in standard factory quality tests as they have happened after a varying amount of time. In the factory they probably ran them round a circuit twice so not quite enough to work whatever loose It is bold to say there appears to be nothing wrong with the design - everything may appear to be in place but there may be clearance tolerances that are too wide, hence some fail some don't, or the motion retention method may not be consistently achieved due to assembly errors or even the design of the retention method. Looking for design errors is not necessarily easy to assess visually. I believe your last statement is close to the truth though - once a product is 'cleared' for full production I imagine a simple functional test, ie running round a test track a couple of times is probably all that is done to each one prior to boxing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2017 It's not that bold on the design when there's nothing ground breaking in it. I've seen consistently far sloppier tolerances on old Farish and Minitrix valve gear that flopped around far more. Material choice is more likely to be an Achilles heel of the design itself as some of the chassis plastic does seem a little soft. I can't find any flex in the parts supporting the motion though on Tims one that really mangled it's motion. My first suspicion on the failure of his main crank was maybe that is soft plastic rather than delrin but it seems pretty hard so without knowing what it is I can't comment further on the choice, it could just have been a defect in the moulding as it filled making a weak point at the hole because the mould or plastic were too cool. Steve's two appear from the pics to be rivet failures but i can't see if it's the rivet material breaking or insufficient 'crimping'. From all that it looks more like assembly to me but as it's based on a few photos of Steve's and just two models in hand it's hard to be certain. I checked mine over looking for both faults and all seems tight and square. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 it may only be a rumour, but from other forums postings they are saying Peco have returned a large batch to Heljan, and Heljan have stopped supply till the whole of the stock with them is checked over. Heljan are also closed for holidays so a further wait till the work is done. So the sold ones are the only ones around at present, and the release is put farther back again. I wonder if it will be around before the Swanley show. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted July 25, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2017 (edited) The Peco comment is a strange rumour considering I talked to CM Editor Andrew Burnham last week who was involved in encouraging the project and he knew of no major problem in returns to Peco but had heard about the quality control issues on the forums. The two magazines operate in a different part of the building but it would have to be very secret squirrel to avoid them knowing. Edited July 25, 2017 by PaulRhB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackers Posted August 6, 2017 Share Posted August 6, 2017 Crikey - if I may put forth my pair of pennies, this all does seem rather alarming! Having designed a 009 layout (not yet built nor parts purchased) that I am quite proud of, reading through this thread has very nearly put me off! I had been hoping to use the Heljan locos and Peco stock to put together "yet another confounded fictional branch terminus" layout as the small gauge allows me to get more out of the little space I have. Fingers crossed, that Heljan do indeed succeed in ironing out the issues before the next batch is produced (if, that is, I've understood the musings of this thread correctly), otherwise I don't think I'll be parting with my precious Pounds - many of them, for these locos . Back to my original plan for a terrible OO layout it may well be. Shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) For info I learned of another valve gear failure over the weekend, an EXE which was an early purchase but itself a replacement for the original purchase made as that loco was found to be 'wobbly' when it ran so was replaced. The replacement loco ran fine when the pony pickups had been removed and coupling height adjusted and was in almost daily use for over 5 weeks so it had quite a lot of running time on a continuous run layout, but last week it suddenly juddered and stopped as the valve gear on one side came apart, at the same time bending the slide bar and jamming up....... So that one is going back. Edited August 7, 2017 by Stevelewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 The troubles that Heljan have with the valve gear, and frankly they seem trivial and easy to cure, pale into insignificance against the total lack of supplies except to those who seem to have been picked by luck to have received the product. The supply situation is unknown, Heljan just go not answer queries, and it looks like the next batch will jump over the initial liveries, and leave customers without the goods unless a repeat run is done in a years time. It is messy, disorganised and a the situation is leading to total disillusionment with Heljan. I am leaving them on order, but may cancel all of them if something is not done soon to get the supplies underway. Where are the locos at the moment? Heljan should have tested the Locos long before the first was delivered, and obviously still have issues to solve, like public relations, apart from solving the valve gear support problem. Yet again we are dependant on the Chinese to make the items, pity the designs sent to them as so poorly thought out and poorly tested. This hobby is slowly performing a death throw at the moment, it is going to suddenly hit, with a collapse unless the suppliers in the UK remember the customer comes first, they pay the bills, they expect service, deliveries on time, and for items to be available to all that want to purchase them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 Bertiedog as you apparently not yet received a MW I cannot understanfd how you can state that the valve gear issue is 'trivial' and 'easy to cure' In my opinion it is not easy to cure, it may require a re-design to improve its fragility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivegreen Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I have yet to see one of these models - I have one on order, of course - but having read the rather less sensational of the comments above I would agree with Stevelewis (and others) that a redesign seems in order on several points. If that is indeed what Heljan is aiming at, it is pointless raging on about lack of deliveries and so on. Lack of information is another thing but, as has been said elsewhere, if Heljan, like many European companies, is taking block summer holidays we shouldn't expect any news until into September. Let's enjoy the sun while it lasts: modelling is for the shorter days (well, for me, anyway!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 I have seen the loco and the problem, it simply should never have happened in a company that designs model locos, it has happened and Heljan must bear the responsibility and put it right at once, holidays or not. I am getting fed up reading that in some way we should be grateful to makers for supplying the goods. Some of us will be long dead before things are delivered in this current business mode that the trade has quietly slipped into. If it was a maker in Europe who was doing the corrections it would already be in place and deliveries resumed, well Heljan and the others have blessed themselves with Chinese production, and this is the nightmare that can happen. With batch production the problem takes months to sort out. I for one will leave the locos on order, but cancel as I feel like it, I owe nothing to Heljan and they seem to treat people with no service in mind. This is the sixth product I have ordered over the past two years where the delays and lack of delivery have affected what should be a nice pastime in retirement, well I cannot wait as long as many feel they can, and will move on to another project in the meantime. I do not want to cancel as it affects the shop supplying the locos in the UK, and that's a separate matter, as these sort of problems do not help a struggling model trade at all. By the way, the one I checked over took about an hour to cure, new pins in the pivots, and two spacer washers, that's all, and that included working out what was wrong. Pity the youngster on a computer design system did not spot it! or have the experience not to check the design before committing it to manufacture. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearlymen Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) I posted a message to Heljan on their facebook page (community section) which was replied to today. This says that the outstanding locos in the first delivery have now arrived with them and are undergoing testing. Whether or not this means they have been or are undergoing modification I know not but thats the latest news ! I also emailed Hattons who were not sure what the current situation was ! You'll have to log into Facebook and then navigate to the Heljan page to read the community comments. Cheers Clive Edited August 7, 2017 by Nearlymen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loco Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 My first venture into Narrow gauge went really well, Initially very pleased. It ran perfectly on a new 3 metre length of track for several days. Using a Bachmann/zimo decoder. And stunning to look at. I then purchased 3 pairs of Peco large radius electrofrog points, Coaches and wagons. It was my turn, the troubles began. Derailing, and shorting on the points, nearly every time. Rear bogies jumping off, In addition the loco started stopping when going slowly, needing a gentle push till it gained momentum. All very frustrating. Tried putting up with it, but after a few days, it was returned to a very sympathetic dealer. After these disappointments i will not be replacing until I'm satisfied the obvious problems have been resolved, and future models will run normally, as is to be expected for a not cheap RTR loco. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) Ohh well I have to log on to Facebook to find out what Heljan is doing,...explains a lot about what they do far to much and use Facebook rather than cure the problems. As Ii expect others here do use Facebook I must point out any such use is up to them, but not a suitable medium to contact customers on. What worries me is this second batch, what livery is it, as it could just be the next promised , which leaves orders for the first livery up in the air without any information. Are we going to be subjected to the Hornby Peckett situation, where they are never gong to repeat the first batches again?. Well I am putting away the layout, into sore, I have just about had enough of the delays and faults. The L&B stock can run with the Bachmann WW1 items when they come later this year. Woody Bay is no more......unless the stuff turns up very soon indeed........ My sympathy also goes to Peco and their range, in the end it will sell, but it must be dreadfully worrying for them at the moment.. Stephen Edited August 7, 2017 by bertiedog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 My first venture into Narrow gauge went really well, Initially very pleased. It ran perfectly on a new 3 metre length of track for several days. Using a Bachmann/zimo decoder. And stunning to look at. I then purchased 3 pairs of Peco large radius electrofrog points, Coaches and wagons. It was my turn, the troubles began. Derailing, and shorting on the points, nearly every time. Rear bogies jumping off, In addition the loco started stopping when going slowly, needing a gentle push till it gained momentum. All very frustrating. Tried putting up with it, but after a few days, it was returned to a very sympathetic dealer. After these disappointments i will not be replacing until I'm satisfied the obvious problems have been resolved, and future models will run normally, as is to be expected for a not cheap RTR loco. Interesting re the gentle push!,, I had the same problem with both mine before their valve gear failures, similar faults occurred when running on analogue supply and I briefly fitted a Gaugemaster DCC28 to Yeo and it did do exactly the same thing, I began to wonder if this had something to do with the coreless motor. I would point out the stalling had nothing to do with the track as other locos ( Roco & Liliput perform fine without problems) Some time ago I bought a Haskins AUS Puffing Billy for the 0n30 layout which had a coreless motor which had similar performance problems ie stalling for no particular reason and needing assistance to re start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 . By the way, the one I checked over took about an hour to cure, new pins in the pivots, and two spacer washers, that's all, and that included working out what was wrong. Pity the youngster on a computer design system did not spot it! or have the experience not to check the design before committing it to manufacture. Stephen Someone must have very good eyesight then to be able to carry out such a repair, perhaps you should offer your services to other disappointed owners who still have their locos? ( At a modest charge of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 It is not eyesight that limits such a repair in a factory, a jig is made to drill out the holes and fit new pins, no particular skill by the operator is involved. I corrected the one loco I have examined, with new pivots and spacers to stop the rods touching the slidebar arrangement. Heljan put far to much sideplay on the valve gear parts, they can catch the bars, and the pivot mount comes adrift. The pickups are just a matter of reassembly as made, plus a tweak to relive excess pressure downwards. An improvement is brass bearings, full width in each bogie, to stop the wheel crabbing on points, going out of a true radial path through the points. Also a flat spring can be added to bear down on the bogie, but adjustment is not easy. I cannot get involved with repairs in general due to pretty bad arthritis, and being house bound due to this problem. My point is Heljan's designers should be more professional in approach and spotted these problems years ago, before any production was scheduled. In the main the design works, and blaming coreless motors for problems is just plain wrong. Coreless motors respond in the same way as any motor to starting, it is the DCC unit that is not matched properly that is the cause in most cases. Coreless types start moving sooner than ordinary motors, on a lower voltage because they are efficient. The troubles come with DC units that do not start at ZERO volts and use regulators that start delivery at about 1.2 volts, causing odd lurching starts or on some circuits design a stall. The issue is similar on DCC, most chips were not meant to run at such low currents and voltages being fed to the motor. Adjusting things to match can help, but also hinder causing a stall till the signal gets bigger, and the loco moves away suddenly. Intrinsically the coreless motor is far superior to a conventional type, lower current, lower heat, less losses, and usually quieter. The problems should be easy to cure if the Factory was in Europe, and the designers worked in the same plant, overseeing all the parts production and assembly on a day to day basis, but with China it is half the world away, and I doubt any Heljan staff are in residence with the Chinese. It is not the Chinese Factories at fault, it is the designers fault for not knowing how to arrange the parts. The Locos had an odd valve gear, Joys , which is near impossible to portray in 009, but Heljans efforts at trying have just messed up the design. If such problems turn up on a model that is in delivery, frankly holidays would simply be cancelled till it was put right, at least for the design staff and management. I'll bet the Chinese workers do not get any choice about holidays, obviously Heljan's priorities are very different. Anyway off to other climes for the time being, and another layout, it is so sad that the locos are such a problem, I hope they do get it sorted out, but next time an embargo till the crates are in the shops please! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted August 7, 2017 Share Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) It is n If such problems turn up on a model that is in delivery, frankly holidays would simply be cancelled till it was put right, at least for the design staff and management. I'll bet the Chinese workers do not get any choice about holidays, obviously Heljan's priorities are very different. In China holiday arrangements are different and most focused around the new which today runs from before Christmas to after THEIR new year. And you cannot do anything about it. I don,t know about summer but we do know their workers can and do change factories regularly. Saying "holiday is cancelled" to them will probably leave you with no work force to boot! Likewise can you imagine cancelling holidays in the west in this day and age? Especially for a model train? Seeing how the forums erupt with complaints on many a release these days, no model train designer would ever go on holiday again. Now seeing how quickly the next batch is due leads me to think that there maybe was no time to improve it. If they have then congratulations will be in order. Initially my 009 addition to my current layout was going to be a line with a gradient to a station that has a passing loop. The other end with a full roundy loop. 12 inch radius minimum and 3 points plus a 4 inch rise over 6 feet. Having read here, I have instead decided to do one big loop with 10 yards of track (some 80% hidden behind the back scenes of the main OO layout) all level, no points and 18 inch radius minimum curves. Edited August 8, 2017 by JSpencer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Have to agree with JSpencer if more locos are released for sale I think it will be unlikely that enough time has elapsed to carry out modifications, some retailers have still to send back some returned faulty locos ( due to Heljan hols) so these will not have been examined by the manufacturer yet. Re JSpencer's proposed 009 layout, for info, when my first loco's valve gear failed I had carried out the fixes on pony trucks & couplings, so the loco was running well on a largish layout with minimum radius 12" curves and several Peco 18" points in the circuit, the track plan being a looped 8 configuration with gradients of approx. 1 in 20 to 25. The loco performed fine without any problems whatsoever, I was almost going to keep it even with the broken valve gear ( as Piston & Con rods still OK) but then the 2nd locos valve gear failed, so I got annoyed and returned them both. A plus point by removing the springy brass pony pickups was that the haulage capacity was increased as the majority of the locos 138gm weight was on the 6 driving wheels, 6 Peco coaches could be hauled up the inclines, whereas when the brass pickups were still in place the limit was 4 coaches ( FYI the coaches have additional internal ballast fitted to improve their trackholding and rollability) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearlymen Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Blimey ! Anyone would think it's difficult to log onto a manufacturers facebook forum and ask a question !! LOL ! There you go ! Clive Roper to Heljan A/SSo July has been and gone now, what is the latest delivery date and information regarding the first outstanding batch of the Lynton and Barnstaple OO9 Locos. An update would be appreciated. Heljan A/S to Clive Roper We have just received the second batch (shipment) amd are testing as we speak Clive Roper to Heljan A/S Have these models been changed/improved from the initial batch released ? I.e. have the pony truck riding problems over Peco points and the valve gear breakages that have been reported on model forums been rectified ? Edited August 8, 2017 by Nearlymen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Some people do not go on social chat forums like Facebook, if Heljan want they can answer by email. It just shows that Heljan like to waste time chatting or such rather than delivering the goods ordered! Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Blimey ! Anyone would think it's difficult to log onto a manufacturers facebook forum and ask a question !! LOL ! There you go ! Clive Roper to Heljan A/SSo July has been and gone now, what is the latest delivery date and information regarding the first outstanding batch of the Lynton and Barnstaple OO9 Locos. An update would be appreciated. Heljan A/S to Clive Roper We have just received the second batch (shipment) amd are testing as we speak Clive Roper to Heljan A/S Have these models been changed/improved from the initial batch released ? I.e. have the pony truck riding problems over Peco points and the valve gear breakages that have been reported on model forums been rectified ? The only comment I would make on Heljan's reply that they are 'testing' is that, my failures ( Valve gear) occurred at around 3 hours for Loco no 1 and in excess of 15 hrs for Loco no 2 . Also the pony truck problems were not confined to points, derailment also occurred when curves had been traversed and the pony was prevented to 'swing' correctly due to pick up pressure. once the brass pickups were disabled this problem was eliminated and the locos ran just as well if not better ( more traction on the driving wheels) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearlymen Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 OK I get it, people prefer to moan than try to get answers. Don't worry I won't make that mistake again on this Forum. Cheerio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Have people who returned faulty locos received replacements in exchange? Is there a danger that the pick-up etc modifications invalidate any warranty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) Have people who returned faulty locos received replacements in exchange? Is there a danger that the pick-up etc modifications invalidate any warranty? I returned my 2 no problem received full refund ( now reinvested in some Fleischmann N Gauge locos) I did not want replacements at this stage the 009 project is now on hold pending definite confirmation that the locos faults have been addressed. No problems with the pickups as the brass pickup pieces were simply initially carefully bent with fine nosed pliers out of position, on returning they were simply bent back. The retailer was totally aware, in fact he told me the other day he had reduced his order for the Next delivery of locos Edited August 8, 2017 by Stevelewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swsjames Posted August 8, 2017 Share Posted August 8, 2017 Very amused to see the Heljan advert in the latest Railway Modeller. It shows Yeo ("sold out") with its rear pony truck derailed. Disarmingly honest, I thought. - Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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