Which DCC System

[Despatcher]

I am in the process of drastically changing my OO gauge layout, including relaying all the track and points and a new track plan. The space I have accomodates an end to end layout about 30 feet long, mainly 2 feet wide with the staion area around 4 feet wide. It will have a main station, a branch station, a fiddle yard, and a loco shed/diesel depot. When complete it will have 17 points all controlled by tortoise point motors controlled by NCE switch 8s. The points are electrofrog and will be connected to 3 Hex Frogjuicers for switching polarity.

 

I want to control points with my DCC controller. I want to power the NCE Switch 8s and Frogjuicers from the track. I also programme locos through a programming track which will be  an isolated siding.

 

When operational around 15 - 20 locos will be on the layout all with sound decoders, lights. Of these around 10 will be "live" ie sound and lights on at any one time. The maximum number of locos moving at any one time will be three (two on the layout and possibly one on a rolling road powered also from the track).

 

At present I have a Bachmann Dynamis with Probox and I would like to know if it will cope with the current/amps drawn by the above or do I need to ugrade with something more powerful? (current/amos is really the bit of modelling I just do not understand). I like the walk around with no leads aspect of the Dynamis as it enables me to walk from one end to the other and has served me well for the past 6 years. If I need to change I quite like the look of the new Z21 even if my 60th birthday is behind me - I like to move with the times but reliability and robustness are crucial too in coming to a decision. Budget is not a problem, within reason!

 

All suggestions welcomed and many thanks in advance

[brossard]

You'll probably get a number of suggestions.  I'm a happy NCE user but don't take my word for it.  Here's a good summary (I think) of pros and cons:

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCgoingdcc.htm

 

There's also a ton of advice in the other tabs on the page.

 

Yet more reading:  http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/dcc.htm?Submit=Digital+Control

 

John

[Alister_G]

I would say that what you are asking the system to be able to do is a bit much for a single power supply. If it was me, I would power your Switch8s, Hex Juicers and Tortoises from a separate supply - that doesn't mean you can't control them from the Dynamis, just that they don't draw power from the track. If you try and power it all through the track, especially with sound and lights on locos as well, I suspect you will run into problems.

[Despatcher]

I would say that what you are asking the system to be able to do is a bit much for a single power supply. If it was me, I would power your Switch8s, Hex Juicers and Tortoises from a separate supply - that doesn't mean you can't control them from the Dynamis, just that they don't draw power from the track. If you try and power it all through the track, especially with sound and lights on locos as well, I suspect you will run into problems.

Thanks, that sounds like good, sensible advice. I always thought that DCC was meant to be a one system, two wires simple fix but this does not seem to be quite the case. I am changing my layout because the "problems" I suspect you refer to began to exist in the old layout and I want to get this one correct. I especially had problems with small wheelbase locos (Class 03s etc), the heavier, larger locos (Class 24s, BR Standard 5s) were ok. I had contemplated using the Dynamis to power the Switch8s, Hex Juicers and Tortoises and getting something else for loco control if a "one system controls all" system was not the way to proceed. Thank you for your time and considered comments, much appreciated.

 

You'll probably get a number of suggestions.  I'm a happy NCE user but don't take my word for it.  Here's a good summary (I think) of pros and cons:

 

http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCgoingdcc.htm

 

There's also a ton of advice in the other tabs on the page.

 

Yet more reading:  http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/dcc.htm?Submit=Digital+Control

 

John

Thanks. I will read these and see where it leads me. Thanks for your time.

[Removed a/c]

10 sounds loco all on at once is gonna give you a banging headache  

[Suzie]

Plan your layout so that it can be easily divided into sections electrically, then you can divide it up and feed the different sections from boosters if required. It will be sensible to feed your accessories from a separate accessory bus, and possible other sections will be the station area and loco depot where locos are likely to be standing and making noise (and therefore using power. Locos use more power making sound than pulling a train.)

 

If you are happy with your Dynamis stick with it, and if you need more power just buy a booster or two to feed the sation and depot if required.

[Despatcher]

Plan your layout so that it can be easily divided into sections electrically, then you can divide it up and feed the different sections from boosters if required. It will be sensible to feed your accessories from a separate accessory bus, and possible other sections will be the station area and loco depot where locos are likely to be standing and making noise (and therefore using power. Locos use more power making sound than pulling a train.)

 

If you are happy with your Dynamis stick with it, and if you need more power just buy a booster or two to feed the sation and depot if required.

That is really helpful. Had not realised that sound locos "making noise" use more power than locos pulling a train. Big Thanks.

[Despatcher]

10 sounds loco all on at once is gonna give you a banging headache

Thanks. I will bear that in mind. Although I have noticed that I can adjust the sound levels using CV63 to obtain a level of sound, even for 10 locos, that is realistic and that does not require regular intakes of nurofen/paracetamol.

[Despatcher]

I would say that what you are asking the system to be able to do is a bit much for a single power supply. If it was me, I would power your Switch8s, Hex Juicers and Tortoises from a separate supply - that doesn't mean you can't control them from the Dynamis, just that they don't draw power from the track. If you try and power it all through the track, especially with sound and lights on locos as well, I suspect you will run into problems.

Apologies been away for a few days. If I use another system/power source to control Switch8s, Hex Juicers and Tortoises, how do I still control them using the Dynamis? Surely all three have to be connected to a track/bus feed at some point to receive the input from the Dynamis. For instance, the Switch8s were connected with two wires to the track bus on my now dismantled layout. From the Switch8s two wires ran to each Tortoise. If I connect the Switch8 to a seperate power source and connect my Dynamis to the track bus how does a command from the Dynamis reach the Switch8. I am not understaning? Am I misunderstanding or just plain incompetent? Help please. Simple version would be appreciated! THANKS.

[Suzie]

This is the additional power source you need if you find the power from the Dynamis to be inadequate:-

 

 

Listed here to buy and no doubt elsewhere too.

[Despatcher]

This is the additional power source you need if you find the power from the Dynamis to be inadequate:-

 

 

Listed here to buy and no doubt elsewhere too.

 

Thanks. Does this connect to the Dynamis or the track? Or is all explained with a manual?

 

[Suzie]

Thanks. Does this connect to the Dynamis or the track? Or is all explained with a manual?

I am sure it is all explained in the manual, but it connects to the mains, the Dynamis, and the track sections that you are feeding with it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.... If I connect the Switch8 to a seperate power source and connect my Dynamis to the track bus how does a command from the Dynamis reach the Switch8. I am not understaning? Am I misunderstanding or just plain incompetent? Help please. Simple version would be appreciated! THANKS.

 Very simple indeed. Any DCC system has a command generating function operated from the interface you use. Those commands then go to an amplifier to provide the current 'muscle' enough to operate motors etc. When you reach the power output limits of one amplifier, you add another. Each amplifier gets the same stream of commands from the system (effectively connected in parallel). On a large layout with lots of trains running, it is usual to divide the layout into sections or power districts, one per amplifier.

 

Also a good systems approach is to employ an additional amplifier to that powering the trains, to provide the current for point motors separate from the amplifier powering the trains. That way if the train power is shorted and trips out, the amplifier running the points is still operating, significantly enabling you to change any point which may well be the item that caused the short.

[Despatcher]

 Very simple indeed. Any DCC system has a command generating function operated from the interface you use. Those commands then go to an amplifier to provide the current 'muscle' enough to operate motors etc. When you reach the power output limits of one amplifier, you add another. Each amplifier gets the same stream of commands from the system (effectively connected in parallel). On a large layout with lots of trains running, it is usual to divide the layout into sections or power districts, one per amplifier.

 

Also a good systems approach is to employ an additional amplifier to that powering the trains, to provide the current for point motors separate from the amplifier powering the trains. That way if the train power is shorted and trips out, the amplifier running the points is still operating, significantly enabling you to change any point which may well be the item that caused the short.

Thanks I understand the principle, I think, but I am still not understanding what I connect to what if I add an amplifier. At present there is a trackbus from my Dynamis (with Probox) which has droppers from the track to power the locos, droppers for the Switch8s which control the Tortoise Point Motors and droppers from the track to power the Hex Frogjuicers plus one wire from each point frog to the Hexjuicer. What would this look like with an amplifier?  Diagram would be good. Thanks.

[Oldddudders]

http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-systems/high-power/36-520-e-z-command-5-amp-power-booster.aspx appears to be what you want. It seems to have power in, dcc in and power out terminals. I am surprised if this isn't all explained in the Dynamis instruction manual?

[Suzie]

I can't see anything in the Dynamis manual, the booster must come with its own manual.

[Despatcher]

I can't see anything in the Dynamis manual, the booster must come with its own manual.

Thanks. I thought I was missing something in the Dynamis manual but obviously not. I expect there is an on line manual for the amplifier. I will try and find it.

[Despatcher]

http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/dcc-systems/high-power/36-520-e-z-command-5-amp-power-booster.aspx appears to be what you want. It seems to have power in, dcc in and power out terminals. I am surprised if this isn't all explained in the Dynamis instruction manual?

Many thanks. Unfortunately not explained in the Dynamis Manual. I will search on line.

[Despatcher]

Thanks. I thought I was missing something in the Dynamis manual but obviously not. I expect there is an on line manual for the amplifier. I will try and find it.

It would appear that a manual to describe how to join a Dynamis plus ProBox to the Bachmann 5amp amplifier does not exist and those who have tried and been successful have discovered that the net result is the loss of the programming track, see link below. This is not an option. It would now seem I need a new system with more amps than a Dynamis which is a pity as I like the walkabout without a lead capability because my layout is a long end to end. Any suggestions? Or can anyone confirm the programming track has to go when using an amplifier with a Dynamis especially as the link below is from the USofA.  

 

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,20332.msg169394.html

 

I thought this would be easy with the help of all you good people out there.

[Ron Ron Ron]

This old video shows how to connect the EZ Command Booster to the more basic EZ Command DCC system.

 

 

[Despatcher]

This old video shows how to connect the EZ Command Booster to the more basic EZ Command DCC system.

 

 

 

 

Many, many thanks, this is brilliant and should be on the Bachmann website. It also confirms quite visually that using an amp with a Dynamis would remove the programming on a service track option (reading CVs) as it is not then possible to connect the ProBox to the track with the same current as the amp as there is not a mini jack connection on the Pro Box. I'm not overgood on electrickery but connecting a 5 amp supply and a 2.5 amp supply to the track at the same time does not sound over compatible to me. I understand that my service track is totally isolated from the main track but the locos would have to cross the gap into the different power supply. I'm learning a lot - wow thanks.

[Nigelcliffe]

Splitting a layout into different connected areas fed by different boosters is normal for lager layouts. Look up the term "power district". A well designed booster which is on phase with the neighbouring booster will have no problem with locos crossing the join between the two.

 

If the Bachmann booster connects to the output of the basic Dynamis, and that connection is currently used for programming track, then the apparent loss of programming track could be solved with a switch in those wires. If wanting an automatic switch, I expect that the one sold by NCE should work.

 

However, back at basics. I'm surprised that a layout is needing so much current to run it. Switch-8 decoders and tortoise are low current devices. .

 

 

Nigel

[Suzie]

The Dynamis outputs the track signal on both the main track output and the programming track output, Bachmann have taken advantage of this and just plugged the booster in to the programming track output using an existing cable instead of where it should go. It will be possible to just connect the input to the booster to the normal track output in the same way that it is connected to the main track output on the E-Z Command in the video.

 

If you want to retain connecting the booster to the programming track output NCE produce a switching unit that will automatically switch the programming track output between the booster and the programming track.

[Phil S]

As Nigel says, Boosters are normally used when there are multiple 'power districts', and points out that  this is more common on larger layouts.  With common inputs ( - ie the same dcc data: essential )  they will each produce identical but independant track power outputs.

They should preferably be set to the same output voiltage, [and from their own input power supplies]

 

{I mention this because the ZTC511 has adjustable track output voltage, but their BOOSTER does not: and therefore when a train crosses from one power district to the other, the train speed is likely to change - their 'solution' was to offer a different voltage transformer, or use a separate variable dc power supply for the booster}

 

When a train crosses from one power district to the next - they are temporarilly connected together IN PARALLEL: This is not a problem when their voltages almost the same, [ It is a common method in high-power industrial equipment containing a backup/dual power supply ]

 

Obviously they must have the SAME polarity at all times  (phase) or a large current would flow and they would self-protect and cut out.

SOME boosters are designed with Auto-Reversing capability - as this is exactly how traditional auto-reverse circuits have worked - and they would self, correct when powering-up.  One ZTC Booster model does, but the Roco Amplifiers, for example, do not, and must be plugged with the correct polarity.

 

The idea fails if adjacent sections were from different dcc contollers - and one 'hidden' example of this is a 'braking generator' section, which is transmitting its OWN dcc data ie 'all stop', or the alternative 'brake on dc' - these require a train-length intermediate section between the 'normal' and 'braked' areas.

{This is where Lenz's assymetric braking method wins, because it is the SAME dcc data signal at all times, simply with a small amplitude difference caused by diodes - it can therefore be adjacent to 'normal' sections, and use the same track power.}

 

Power Districts can be useful, on even to the smallest layout, which has DCC-controlled Pointwork, especially if live-frog points are used, so that points can still be contolled, even if their is a short-circuit, or other problem, on the track.

 

I would recommend using the default output of the Dynamis [ or Pro track output] or ANY '1A STARTER' Dcc contoller to supply the Accessory Bus - assuming that the accessory decoders used have there own 16Vac power feed, and are simply monitoring the supplied dcc signal for control purposes - in this way, even 1A 'Starter Pack'' controllers  with limited current output have a prolonged use, even on larger layouts.

{Lenz LS150's use 16Vac for their power, ZTC, ESU/Bachmann have external power options, MERG decoders must use external power}

 

Use a Booster - whether it is fed by a dedicated 'booster' connection from the master, or , as with the Bachmann, can simply be connected to the standard dcc output - , but via a switch - to supply the 'track' dcc feeds.... this having a 5A capability, at any track voltage suited from 'N' to 'G'

 

Any Dedicated Programming output available form the controller (Pro? in this case, Rocomotion in mine) is fed to the dedicated PGM track section, which is not normally used for running ( on some controllers, the PGM output is NOT powered during normal operation ). 

IF the controller can read-back CVs (and this is NOT A requirement for programming!!), then this will still be the case.

[Despatcher]

Splitting a layout into different connected areas fed by different boosters is normal for lager layouts. Look up the term "power district". A well designed booster which is on phase with the neighbouring booster will have no problem with locos crossing the join between the two.

 

If the Bachmann booster connects to the output of the basic Dynamis, and that connection is currently used for programming track, then the apparent loss of programming track could be solved with a switch in those wires. If wanting an automatic switch, I expect that the one sold by NCE should work.

 

However, back at basics. I'm surprised that a layout is needing so much current to run it. Switch-8 decoders and tortoise are low current devices. .

 

Nigel

Many thanks again. I am just looking for something with more power, in terms of amps. I am having a problem running small wheelbase locos on my layout and it has been suggested because of the number of sound locos stored on the layout, around 17, of which any 10 will have lights and sound on, the Switch 8s, the Tortoises, the Hexjuicers and the buffer lights that I might just need more amps so I was looking for a booster for my Dynamis (with probox). All other locos (mixture of steam and diesel locos) run just fine, all the time, no problems. I have Bachmann Class 24s, GW Granges, Hornby Q1s, etc etc that will run all the length of the layout on speedstep 1 of 28 without hesitating, dithering or even thinking about it. My 03 shunter will not run more than 3 inches without the sound cutting out every other millisecond BUT without doing anything to it it will run on a layout in Nottingham, miles from the sea without batting an eye lid. It has enjoyed many hundreds of miles in the post! As a curve ball it has also been suggested that because the layout is only around 100 yards from the sea at high tide and there is nothing between the house and the beach that it could be salt crystals on the track or te wheels of short wheelbase locos. And yes even when the track is cleaner than cleanest clean ever in the whole world the problem still exists.