DCC Sound - is it just a novelty?

[Oldddudders]

The video is bizarre in terms of the operations taking place! Yes, I feel the owner has not maximised the opportunity for the Sound & Power feature to work. My QSIs are a bit out of date - I don't think I've updated the files in more than 5 years for various reasons - but I went out and tried a BLI 2-10-2 last night and the reduction in chuff was much more significant than on the vid. The latest QSI manual seems to offer something on CV49-12 that would perhaps make the contrast even greater, but I think my files need an update to do that. I first need to download a Windows 7 version of the software. For those contemplating the newly-announced Soundtraxx economy deciders in Bachmann RTR, Soundtraxx certainly does kill the chuffs better in drifting, and the rod clank can be ramped up better, too. But, like QSI, this all needs setting up to your taste.

 

It would be interesting to know which version of QSI file 407 faulcon1 has in his model. Most US steam sound files are at least partly artificial, because almost all the steam was dead and buried before decent recordings were made. There is a lot less live steam on US preserved lines, I think. So if the Oz loco was also a dodo, it's hard to see where the files might have been created, unless someone had a private recording.

 

Finally, I think the US sound market relies to some extent on the novelty features, rather than being authentic. It is nice that my QSI steamers have automatic draincock opening after 30 seconds standing idle, but there are lots of other things that are less convincing.

[faulcon1]

The Quantum Software Version is: 407v7-5-1 which is probably what Noah had on his ark. The paper work is dated 17/9/2006.

A lot of the sounds don't match or activate when a funtion button is pressed. I had one hell of an argument with Eureka Models over it.

Although the Garratt is a beautiful model the DCC sounds on the decoder don't do the model justice. At the present time there is no operating AD60 class Garratt in NSW and although 6029 is getting close to operating again after a major overhaul she last operated in 1981.

Even the C38 4-6-2 from Eureka Models uses generic 'American' sound and yet 3801 was in operation from 1986 to 2009 and 3830 from 1998 to 2008 but nobody who does decoders here recorded the genuine sounds. Much easier to just use American sounds.

[Compbck]

I have just returned to the hobby after many years away fighting crime in the smoke. Suddenly I was thrust into a world of digital magic, in the form of DCC, which really did excite me.

 

Then I visited the Alexander Palace Show and purchased Clun Castle with sound for a knock down price.

 

After running on a newly laid test track that was it for me - I want sound and more of it. The whole concept if handled correctly can bring any model railway to life in an instant.

 

Locomotives idling in a siding and steaming, another chuffing past, the sound of a whistle in background. As far I am concerned the debate can linger on forever, but sound is hear to stay - it would be great if the cost dropped slightly, but if demand is good enough no doubt it will.

 

Call me an old romantic, but the hobby has just got interesting.

[Phil S]

Our first 'exposure' to sound was with G Scale in other peoples gardens (G Scale Society visits) - the effect of locos disappearing behind bushes etc, and approaching / departing added so much ... which model smoke rarely does due to limited atmospheric opportunities for maximum visbility [new chuffing types possibly excepted].

As a result we have sound in almost all our G Scale stock... and are considering using Digitrax's Sound-Only decoder to add sound to the remaining, smaller locos. [ I include a couple of diode drops to ensure the decoder voltage never reaches the 25V of the supplied capacitor ]

 

That led the way to adding sound - initially with pre-fitted H0 Roco locos ... and 'had' to include the unique sounds of the Swedish DM3 and IORE locos.

Cost, and internal space, has precluded fitting sound to the majority of our 00 stock ... but the lower cost of the Digitrax 164 has enabled all 'heritage dmus' to be able to charateristically idle away between journeys.

 

Sound levels are very dependent on the location: loft, garden and exhibition hall require very different settings - which is inconvenient whenthey all use differing CV numbers for volume control !

[StuartM]

I've been umming and ahhhing about sound and have found this thread useful, however for me I think sound will remain a pipe-dream until the price comes down to somewhere near sensible. looking on a well known website this evening, they want £115 for a sound chip and this would be on top of a £150 controller, which to my mind is silly money.

I understand that a lot of time has been spent researching etc , but electronics these days are cheap as chips, what you're paying for is the software and to be honest once that's been written, there is no more cost involved. so apart from a small ongoing cost to produce the circuit board that's it, the rest is profiteering.

If the price came down to £25 per sound chip then I would imagine the market would suddenly increase.

I would love to have a layout that includes sound, but until the prices come down to a realistic level, I will be like the proverbial kid with his nose pressed against the window of the toy shop.

[chaz]

I have always taken the view that cheap models are often not worth buying. I used to argue with my father about the price of models, a highly detailed accurate model that runs well is always better, and if it means being able to afford fewer, well so be it. In the same way putting a £150 decoder in a loco (my modelling is all 7mm) that is otherwise finished may cause a sharp intake of breath but it's really  just a question of priorities. If it came down to a choice between 6 silent locos or 4 sound-fitted ones the latter would win hands-down for me. Some folk dislike working sound and they are, of course, fully entitled to that view but the extra dimension that it gives to a model is such that I wouldn't want to operate any of my models in what one of my guest operators calls "stealth mode". I have heard the sound quality arguement - that a tiny speaker in a small model can't possibly sound like the real thing - but I don't think I want my window frames rattling when my models move.

[StuartM]

I have always taken the view that cheap models are often not worth buying. I used to argue with my father about the price of models, a highly detailed accurate model that runs well is always better, and if it means being able to afford fewer, well so be it. In the same way putting a £150 decoder in a loco (my modelling is all 7mm) that is otherwise finished may cause a sharp intake of breath but it's really  just a question of priorities. If it came down to a choice between 6 silent locos or 4 sound-fitted ones the latter would win hands-down for me. Some folk dislike working sound and they are, of course, fully entitled to that view but the extra dimension that it gives to a model is such that I wouldn't want to operate any of my models in what one of my guest operators calls "stealth mode". I have heard the sound quality arguement - that a tiny speaker in a small model can't possibly sound like the real thing - but I don't think I want my window frames rattling when my models move.

My point is that, sound boards don't have to be that expensive, the boards are produced for less than a tenner and the software costs nothing to 'produce' once its been developed, so why are sound boards being retailed at £100+ ?

If the cost was brought down then more units would be sold.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

If the cost was brought down then more units would be sold.

 

I am not entirely sure that I would agree. There are cheap sound decoders on the market and, as with most else, you get what you pay for.

 

As to the components costing a tenner, I might suggest that you invest your tenner and build a sound decoder. Then I openly defy you to make it produce the sounds i want to hear. Of course you will need to develop a programme in the decoder to do that plus source the sounds plus ship the decoders with sufficient margin to attract dealers and sound project producers who will all want a cut. Oh, I forgot software development, website maintenance and warranty back up.

 

All of this suggests that those that have done it are hard pressed to come up with a superior product that customers will buy at much less than the high end producers charge.

 

I think it fair to say that although decoder prices have near doubled in recent years, volume sold has not decreased.

 

What would annoy me would be finding out that Hornby and Bachmann are buying these decoders for a tenner each. Somehow I doubt it.

 

One last thing. Dependency on the very small UK market will put the price up yet further.

[StuartM]

I am not entirely sure that I would agree. There are cheap sound decoders on the market and, as with most else, you get what you pay for.

 

As to the components costing a tenner, I might suggest that you invest your tenner and build a sound decoder. Then I openly defy you to make it produce the sounds i want to hear. Of course you will need to develop a programme in the decoder to do that plus source the sounds plus ship the decoders with sufficient margin to attract dealers and sound project producers who will all want a cut. Oh, I forgot software development, website maintenance and warranty back up.

 

All of this suggests that those that have done it are hard pressed to come up with a superior product that customers will buy at much less than the high end producers charge.

 

I think it fair to say that although decoder prices have near doubled in recent years, volume sold has not decreased.

 

What would annoy me would be finding out that Hornby and Bachmann are buying these decoders for a tenner each. Somehow I doubt it.

 

One last thing. Dependency on the very small UK market will put the price up yet further.

I understand your point, but if Radio Spares can sell a Raspberry pi (which is pretty much a complete computer) for £20 and still make a profit, then I don't see why sound boards can't be sold for around the same price

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/product/7568317/?cm_mmc=UK|Shopping-_-Google+PLA-_-Raspberry+Pi|Processor+%26+Microcontroller+Development+Kits-_-7568317&kpid=&istCompanyId=f7e7b05b-2daf-4c0e-8825-3633baf8113b&istItemId=xwipqipxl&istBid=tzit

[Nigelcliffe]

I understand your point, but if Radio Spares can sell a Raspberry pi (which is pretty much a complete computer) for £20 and still make a profit, then I don't see why sound boards can't be sold for around the same price

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/product/7568317/?cm_mmc=UK|Shopping-_-Google+PLA-_-Raspberry+Pi|Processor+%26+Microcontroller+Development+Kits-_-7568317&kpid=&istCompanyId=f7e7b05b-2daf-4c0e-8825-3633baf8113b&istItemId=xwipqipxl&istBid=tzit

 

A sound decoder consists of a processor (computer), some memory, input power management (to handle 4v to 25v++, both DC and DCC), bi-directional data-over-power control (DCC input, RailCom output, sound loading input with hand-shaking),  power output devices of between 1A and 3A.  They sell in a few tens of thousand.   So, a sound decoder is a complete computer with additional input and output components.

 

A Raspberry PI has a processor (computer), memory,  lacks input power management (5v DC only), lacks output high power circuits (can't drive a motor without more parts), but adds USB, monitor and Ethernet connections.  It is much bigger than a sound chip.   It sells over a million units in one year. 

 

 

Model trains is a tiny niche market, even in total world sales. Volume sales in model trains means 10,000 units, not a million.   

The PI is also made by a charity, so tax-exempt and not requiring to make a profit for the manufacturer/designer company.  A fair chunk of the PI's design didn't directly cost the charity anything as various experts gave their skill to the charity whilst being employed by other organisations.

 

 

The intellectual value in the sound decoder is its internal software, alongside the audio development tools.  That internal software could be easily pirated at a manufacturing facility, so sound decoder makers tend to manufacture "in house", and with the European makers that means with European wage costs.  (There has been a case within the last couple of years of a non-sound decoder maker taking action to stop sales of another manufacturer due to accusations of copying internal decoder software. Both companies are frequently discussed on RMWeb's DCC forums. I have deliberately not named either.   ).

 

As David said, there are cheaper sound boards around.  Digitrax have a range, and various Chinese options pop-up from time to time.  The cheaper ones have compromises in performance or support.   If it was "dead easy" to make a top-performance £40-retail sound decoder, then someone would be out there taking the market from the established players. 

 

 

- Nigel

[chaz]

My point is that, sound boards don't have to be that expensive, the boards are produced for less than a tenner and the software costs nothing to 'produce' once its been developed, so why are sound boards being retailed at £100+ ?

If the cost was brought down then more units would be sold.

 

Yes, understood. However the price of electronic devices is much more to do with how many are sold, rather than component costs. Digital cameras are a case in point - my first digital compact cost me about £600 - I could buy one now with a superior spec' for less than £100. So your sentence "If the cost was brought down then more units would be sold" is, IMHO, the wrong way round. I think one should say "If more were sold then the price would come down". Also I don't think you can just dismiss development costs - manufacturers need to recoup these and, again, a lower level of sales means that these costs must be born by fewer purchasers.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I wll be the first to cheer if the price does drop but we have to be realistic. Frankly I would prefer the makers to concentrate on improving the product first - if that draws more users into the fold then we might all benefit from a price reduction.

 

Chaz

[StuartM]

Yes, understood. However the price of electronic devices is much more to do with how many are sold, rather than component costs. Digital cameras are a case in point - my first digital compact cost me about £600 - I could buy one now with a superior spec' for less than £100. So your sentence "If the cost was brought down then more units would be sold" is, IMHO, the wrong way round. I think one should say "If more were sold then the price would come down". Also I don't think you can just dismiss development costs - manufacturers need to recoup these and, again, a lower level of sales means that these costs must be born by fewer purchasers.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I wll be the first to cheer if the price does drop but we have to be realistic. Frankly I would prefer the makers to concentrate on improving the product first - if that draws more users into the fold then we might all benefit from a price reduction.

 

Chaz

In what way would you  "prefer the makers to concentrate on improving the product first" ?

I'm genuinely interested in the opinions of others with experience of dcc sound.

I'd like an under board sound system for my 2mm shunting plank, but from the youtube videos, the price and what seems to be an awful lot of faffing about with cv values, I'm yet to be convinced

[StuartM]

A sound decoder consists of a processor (computer), some memory, input power management (to handle 4v to 25v++, both DC and DCC), bi-directional data-over-power control (DCC input, RailCom output, sound loading input with hand-shaking),  power output devices of between 1A and 3A.  They sell in a few tens of thousand.   So, a sound decoder is a complete computer with additional input and output components.

 

A Raspberry PI has a processor (computer), memory,  lacks input power management (5v DC only), lacks output high power circuits (can't drive a motor without more parts), but adds USB, monitor and Ethernet connections.  It is much bigger than a sound chip.   It sells over a million units in one year. 

 

 

Model trains is a tiny niche market, even in total world sales. Volume sales in model trains means 10,000 units, not a million.   

The PI is also made by a charity, so tax-exempt and not requiring to make a profit for the manufacturer/designer company.  A fair chunk of the PI's design didn't directly cost the charity anything as various experts gave their skill to the charity whilst being employed by other organisations.

 

 

The intellectual value in the sound decoder is its internal software, alongside the audio development tools.  That internal software could be easily pirated at a manufacturing facility, so sound decoder makers tend to manufacture "in house", and with the European makers that means with European wage costs.  (There has been a case within the last couple of years of a non-sound decoder maker taking action to stop sales of another manufacturer due to accusations of copying internal decoder software. Both companies are frequently discussed on RMWeb's DCC forums. I have deliberately not named either.   ).

 

As David said, there are cheaper sound boards around.  Digitrax have a range, and various Chinese options pop-up from time to time.  The cheaper ones have compromises in performance or support.   If it was "dead easy" to make a top-performance £40-retail sound decoder, then someone would be out there taking the market from the established players. 

 

 

- Nigel

Thanks for your opinion on the subject,

I'm surprised at the low number of units sold, I would have thought the American market would have exceeded that number.

I notice that Hattons are selling an ngauge Bachman loco for £25, http://test.ehattons.com/23800/Bachmann_USA_61251_American_GP50_diesel_loco_in_Union_Pacific_livery/StockDetail.aspx

Admittedly the detail and quality of finish are not great by today's standards, but I presumed that the low cost was down to the volume of the American market, or are Bachman just trying to shift an out of date model ?

 

What are your views on an under board sound option for a shunting plank using a GraFar 04?

[pheaton]

"As a professional railway worker I'm "not a fan" of sound on model railways. It's most unrealistic by its very nature"

 

but then using those words......a class 37 47 german 103 or whatever....is going to be far less realistic passing me on my layout completely silently...... I am a fan sound however there are reservations......but I look at it that its not a case of "shut your eyes and your there" its more of adding an extra dimension.

 

You mention sound decoders with station announcements on, if you've got an unused sound slot on the decoder then why not? Its an extra selling point for your product......

 

I agree you will never get the volume or depth of the real thing for the reason your quite rightly mentioning.........

 

Pro sound delegation.....I don't think there is.....ive not yet seen a thread saying "you must buy sound you cant live without it....or sound is the best thing since the invention of the point motor" but what do find is there's an anti sound delegation with plenty of threads talking the opposite though! Not to be fair on rmweb, but on other forums and in a lot of letters in the various magazines connected with the hobby.

 

And yeah sound is like marmite not every-ones taste but then I do find a lot of the anti sound lobby are more of the "anti DCC lobby"

 

And no im not pointing fingers at yourself because at least you offer weight to your arguments

[Andy7]

My 2 pence worth. I'm 100% for sound I think it adds a great new dimension to model railways. Without DCC and sound coming along I have no doubt that I wouldn't have got back into model railways. For me nothing is more unrealistic that than having a lovely weathered loco set in a stunning scene and passing by but making no sound. If people are willing to spend so spend so much on making the loco look right and in beautiful settings with elec points and Signals etc, I cannot understand why you wouldn't want a quality sound chip fitted making all the right noises, apart from price! Price can be the only sticking point in my opinion.

 

There are plenty of chips out there with decidedly average sounds but you need to shop around and do the research. £95 ish for great sounds is a lot but more than worth it for what it adds to me.

 

By the way all the sounds are selectable by the operator so you can do as you please. Sound can be on, off, loud, quiet whatever you so desire.

[talyllyn1]

 You must remember you're dealing with models to a certain scale, and the distance you view them from should be equally scaled.

 

Have to agree with this, and sound volumes should be adjusted accordingly. Most sound fitted locos I hear are far too loud.

 

The effectiveness of DCC sound is also dependent on how the individual sounds are used. I'll admit I know nothing about how diesels work, but I cringe at some of the steam efforts I hear. By far the worst is the fireman chucking a round of coal in on a loco with the regulator shut, without having the blower on. Such practice in real life would have the fireman whisked off to the serious burns unit!

Over-rapid acceleration and braking is also emphasised with DCC sound - inexcusable given the superior motor control that is achievable.

DCC sound is like any other aspect of modelling. Done well it's brilliant - done poorly, it's awful.

 

But is it a novelty? The same question was probably asked when electric operation came along by those using clockwork, two rails by those using three, and more recently about DCC by those using DC. It's progress, and it won't suit everyone, but it will become commonplace eventually.

 

Cheers

Dave

[The Bigbee Line]

My 2 cents.

 

I started DCC with a ROCO starter set.  It is the digital is cool, only runs 8 channels, but was a great introduction and still used.  I graduated to Lenz and keep an eye open for equipment on ebay.

 

For me DCC is a must.  More volts on line all of the time.  Lights available all the time.  Simplified wiring.

 

What I did struggle with was setting CV;s and mapping functions  etc.  The later ROCO locmaus allows some easy changes.  The next thing for me was the purchase of a SPROG.  Setting changes is very easy.  The SPROG itself is an easy entry for 'one engine in steam'.  I now have an iphone and am looking forward to a wireless system after we move house.

 

Now the big question 'sound'.  I must admit that my first dip in the water was before I could adjust volume etc and it was too loud.  With a SPROG it has all changed; I have an Atlas U23B with factory sound.  The volume has been cranked down and the lights set for independent control.  Best loco I've ever had.  For me you need to listen to hear the sound, it should not be all pervading.  You can also shut down and start up the diesel when required.  I particularly like the start up sound sequence.

 

Regarding price, you get what you pay for.  We all buy things we later regret.  Try and be disciplined and choose a locomotive with sound factory fitted.  I find £100 plus a bit steep for a decoder that you have to fit yourself.  Also be careful of recommendations.  Look and see, don't buy blind.

 

Good luck

[black5f]

Hi. Long time O gauge modeller, engines weigh 2kg, pull a lot for 8 hours at a time pulling 5A, close to 10A if it's been raining so never considered DCC, sound etc. Then a bedroom became free so started planning On30 and bought a couple of Backmann connies, I fitted Tsunami sound cards. I am pleased, takes a lot of time to get things right, a lot of learning but was very pleased. A whole new dimension. Takes time though to get things to sound right. Good luck and stick at it.

First attempts mucking about ...

 

Tom.

[81A Oldoak]

My problem is getting the sound synchronisation right with 7mm scale steam. Despite my persistent efforts, I always seem to fail. Is there any clear guidance on this?

[chaz]

In what way would you  "prefer the makers to concentrate on improving the product first" ?

I'm genuinely interested in the opinions of others with experience of dcc sound.

I'd like an under board sound system for my 2mm shunting plank, but from the youtube videos, the price and what seems to be an awful lot of faffing about with cv values, I'm yet to be convinced

 

Improvements? Well giving the user more choice as to what sounds the model produces. I'd like to be able, for instance, to get a steam loco to move off without chuffing, as they do with just a hint of regulator open. I would also like to be able to get a real bark if the load is heavy. I'd like the loco to switch to coasting more easily - I know this can be done now but some sound projects make it hard to get. And I would prefer these different effects to work from function buttons so that they can selected at will. (yes, I know, Zimo have started down this road - the chip in my Ixion Hudswell Clarke can be switched between "normal" chuffs and "hard-working" - more please!)

 

I would also welcome a much greater range of sound projects. I'm not too worried that I can't buy a project for a J50 (for example) - there is no survivor that can be recorded and in any case there are probably very few people who can remember what they sounded like (I certainly don't), but I want to avoid too many of my locos sounding the same.

 

Diesels? I think the picture is better with diesels - I have a number of (7mm) diesels and they sound good to me. Maybe a more avid diesel fan could comment?

[RedgateModels]

You'll never get it perfect without a wheel sensor Chris. should be possible to fit one to a 7mm loco, less so in 4mm or smaller

[pauliebanger]

Improvements? Well giving the user more choice as to what sounds the model produces. I'd like to be able, for instance, to get a steam loco to move off without chuffing, as they do with just a hint of regulator open. I would also like to be able to get a real bark if the load is heavy. I'd like the loco to switch to coasting more easily - I know this can be done now but some sound projects make it hard to get. And I would prefer these different effects to work from function buttons so that they can selected at will. (yes, I know, Zimo have started down this road - the chip in my Ixion Hudswell Clarke can be switched between "normal" chuffs and "hard-working" - more please!)

 

I would also welcome a much greater range of sound projects. I'm not too worried that I can't buy a project for a J50 (for example) - there is no survivor that can be recorded and in any case there are probably very few people who can remember what they sounded like (I certainly don't), but I want to avoid too many of my locos sounding the same.

 

Diesels? I think the picture is better with diesels - I have a number of (7mm) diesels and they sound good to me. Maybe a more avid diesel fan could comment?

 

Chaz,

 

All my ZIMO steam projects, available from Digitrains, have exactly the features you are asking for and more, (including variable cut-off simulation) and have done so for the last 4 years. I even published a series of articles in Hornby Magazine which explain how to program these features into projects at the design stage. The info is out there, but I can't force sound authors to use it.

 

Thing is, you can explain all you like, but people still stick with what they know, and the so called problems with steam sounds are perpetuated because buyers still prefer to pay more for lower featured decoders with poorly crafted sound projects.

 

There is no reason why coasting (drifting) should not be instantly available. There's no reason why driving with cocks open can't be modelled. There's no excuse on earth why steam locos should 'chuff to a halt'.

 

So maybe you should be asking, why don't all steam projects sound like those on ZIMO? Ha ha!

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

 

PS, just completed a project for under table sound with 2 steam and 2 diesel locos on the same decoder, which for ZIMO works out at just over £20 per loco. This is going in an N gauge exhibition layout, touring soon.

[RedgateModels]

just to confirm what Paul is saying

 

 

Paul very kindly re-did his "Heavy LMS" project with BR standard whistles for me. Come along and hear it on Summat Colliery at the Peterborough show next month

[chaz]

Chaz,

 

All my ZIMO steam projects, available from Digitrains, have exactly the features you are asking for and more, (including variable cut-off simulation) and have done so for the last 4 years. I even published a series of articles in Hornby Magazine which explain how to program these features into projects at the design stage. The info is out there, but I can't force sound authors to use it.

 

Thing is, you can explain all you like, but people still stick with what they know, and the so called problems with steam sounds are perpetuated because buyers still prefer to pay more for lower featured decoders with poorly crafted sound projects.

 

There is no reason why coasting (drifting) should not be instantly available. There's no reason why driving with cocks open can't be modelled. There's no excuse on earth why steam locos should 'chuff to a halt'.

 

So maybe you should be asking, why don't all steam projects sound like those on ZIMO? Ha ha!

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

 

PS, just completed a project for under table sound with 2 steam and 2 diesel locos on the same decoder, which for ZIMO works out at just over £20 per loco. This is going in an N gauge exhibition layout, touring soon.

 

And that's the reason why Zimo will be my new standard fitting. Having tried one I'm a convert. It's a pity that I have so many steam locos with LokSound V3 in to make a wholesale change.

 

I do have one loco with an ESU LokSound in it that converted one of my friends to a DCC fan. He was previously a sceptic having heard too many steam locos 'chuff to a halt'. The sound project in it was downloaded from ESU's website. it took a great deal of fiddling about with values inside the sound project (I don't mean the CVs) to get it to coast properly. So it can be done, but the lack of access to the structure of a pre-installed sound project makes such work impossible. I think it's a pity that the internal structure of a sound project isn't accessible to the user. I understand the copyright issues but most sound projects are given away with the chip - aren't they?

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

I think it's a pity that the internal structure of a sound project isn't accessible to the user. I understand the copyright issues but most sound projects are given away with the chip - aren't they?

 

There is no incentive to a sound project producer to produce sound projects which are then free issue to anybody who wishes to extract the sound project, modify it slightly to get round the copyright issue and then sell it on at a discounted price. You haven't been 'given' the sound project really, it is just that the supplier, be it Bachmann/Hornby or a dealer has absorbed the cost of providing one.

 

There is another solution. Do your own. There is nothing to stop you compiling and loading your own project incorporating all that you want. it only took me several years to master the Loksound V3.5. That was just before ESU changed it to the V4 and compounded the learning curve by several more years.

 

I doubt if anyone can really afford to keep changing chips to keep abreast of the latest developments and if you have a requirement that is now met by using Zimo chips as supplied by Pauliebanger and Digitrains, why do you want to modify anything?