DCC Sound - is it just a novelty?

[Guest jim s-w]

A model railway will never sound like a real one because of the small size of the layout.  When we hear a real train, we hear it approach, pass and go away;

You do get that effect on calcutta sidings but then it is 40ft scenic

 

If you want scale sound in this regard you really need scale distances too

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[newbryford]

A model railway will never sound like a real one because of the small size of the layout.  When we hear a real train, we hear it approach, pass and go away; on our layouts we hear it all the time. 

This can often be compensated for by turning the volume down..... I like the reactions of layout viewers, when, not only looking closer at a model, will also listen closer.

 

It's a general rule on Blackmill (24 foot scenic section), that the sound is turned on just before the locos enter the scenic section and then turned off again as they disappear at the other end. Simple press of F1. No multiple locos idling away in the fiddle yards. This usually means no more than 3 items with engines running on the layout.

 

Although I have fully embraced sound, - it adds an extra dimension to the "play" factor, it does get to me when it's as loud as you can make it and the sound from an adjacent layout drowns out everything else for about 40' nearby - especially when it's a 7mm Class 20 with a Loksound XL at full volume............

 

Cheers,

Mick

[chaz]

Is DCC sound a novelty - I think not. I believe it's already the norm in the USA and is becoming more common here.

 

Is it like Marmite - Yes    But as always Rule One applies.

 

Took my 7mm V2 to a club open day one Sunday last summer. Gave it a run on a large oval layout (a DC set-up so no whistles etc) and it was the only sound-equipped loco in the room. It drew quite a bit of interest as it chuffed round with a rake of coaches in tow.

 

Chaz

[class"66"]

I think Dcc sound,has realy brought the model railways back as number one hobby once again

[roundhouse]

The layouts that we exhibit with sound tend to attract a bigger audience.

 

On Banbury we only have sound in one coach in the steam special but we get a lot of requests to run it again at shows.

 

Ok, it may not be just enthusiasts filling the space on the viewing side  but if it entertains kids, people with just a passing interest in railways and some enthusiasts then its good for the show and the hobby.

 

Ian

[class"66"]

The layouts that we exhibit with sound tend to attract a bigger audience.

 

On Banbury we only have sound in one coach in the steam special but we get a lot of requests to run it again at shows.

 

Ok, it may not be just enthusiasts filling the space on the viewing side  but if it entertains kids, people with just a passing interest in railways and some enthusiasts then its good for the show and the hobby.

 

Ian

Totaly agree with Ian...

[black and decker boy]

I dabble in DCC sound. If the sound file has been done well then it adds a lot to my fun and for me to the realism. If the sound file is not so good then the opposite. You also have the volume issue, Like newbryford, I have the sound volume turned down. You have to learn how to drive the loco, as someone said above, you need to power up, coast then brake not slam from power to stop, the sound will then follow the same and is realistic. It remains a personal choice and as ever with modelling, involves compromise.

 

On Eskmuir, we run mainly DC and the layout gets lots of viewers at shows. Add sound and it turns heads and / or keeps peoples attention. We find it brings to life areas of the layout that can be a little less used - our engine shed usually has a type 2 idling or shuttling about in the sidings.

 

For the OP, if you have not built a layout before then start simple, get it working reliably on DC and then add in DCC. The wiring will work for both. If you start with DCC and it goes wrong, it might be hard to find the fault and dispiriting if you have paid out lots of money for fancy controllers and chips. That will also give you time to get advice locally (I see you are based in the USA) on the systems and sound files available and to see & hear examples in use.

[Jeff Smith]

Thanks, I do appreciate all the advice and comments which I believe have been objective and not too defensive.

 

Edited to remove off-topic content.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Gentlemen,

 

This topic appears to have started wandering off topic.

 

In any event, anybody who is a regular contributor to this DCC Sound forum is hardly likely to suggest that the considerable investment required has turned out to be a complete waste of time and money.

 

As with all things though, a quick review of the market place evolution is in order here. When I started in DCC sound about 6 or 7 years ago, the technology was very much as it is now but with hugely limited memory and very little dealer or commercial sound projects available. Lessons learned about recording, adapting and making the decoder play sounds were hard won and are still being used and at the same marginal technical specifications for sound quality. Lessons about speaker installation are still being learned and in 00 and smaller, size of usable components are still a limiting factor.

 

It has to be pointed out that the number of sound chips sold these days is very much greater than it was before due undoubtedly to the RTR market expansion, entirely dealer led. Every new model announced by any manufacturer generates further interest in a specific sound project and we now have several different project compilers who are servicing an increasing number of prototypes.

 

Whilst that steady expansion continues and the major manufacturers continue to both produce sound fitted locos and locos capable of having sound fitted so we can exercise our choices, it would be churlish to suggest that DCC Sound is in decline although the overall market is relatively quite small.

 

As an educated guess though and allowing for the usual caveat that what happens in the US tends to happen over here eventually, I suspect that the penetration of sound into model railways will gently increase, allowing competition to gain a foothold and reduce or freeze prices.

[Piemanlarger]

 I have read a lot and basically understand the DCC concept and advantages but in truth would probably only be operating 2 or 3 locos at a time

  DCC sound has grabbed my attention, ie if moving to DCC why not go the whole hog and include sound?  However You-Tube and other videos have left me with a feeling of novelty rather than envy.  Perhaps I have not seen good videos but those I have seen sound tinny and unconvincing....also most seem to be on unfinished layouts almost highlighting the novelty value rather than integration into an overall realistic scene.  I am normally a P4 model maker rather than operator so a running layout with some RTR equipment (Bachmann 0n30) is a new departure.

I'm sure I will get plenty of responses saying it's the best thing since sliced bread but lets cut to the chase and hear from detractors as well as supporters.

 

 

 

sound is like any other aspect of model railways, get it wrong and its wrong, Same as operating

poorly at shows!

i am sure as a p4 modeller you wonder why most of us run narrow gauge 00 trains lol!

I then wonder why someone goes the extra few mm then runs a train in silence, who ever heard a silent class 37 or King?

 

I got into uk rtr sound buying when it first started, having already had Us sound

Uk sound has improved alot since then, so when looking at utube you have to look at how old the date of the video is and then wonder how old the sound project is. Utube is ok for getting an idea, but you have to see and hear in the flesh to work out if its for you? 

Then you have to see and hear correctly opterated and fitted sound to really understand that infact sound can be quite good. 

I got rid of my uk steam sounds a couple of years ago as they were not quite good enough, but i think the time is right in that projects have become much better that this year i am planning a small steam "sound" layout for exhibition and looking forward to it. 

 

I have seen and heard so many poorly set up and run sound locos at shows its nothing short of a joke, it annoys me even more than seeing diesels with no pipes, steam trains with no crew (or smoke!) and even silent locos!!

My own locos are set up to only be heard from about 2-3 foot  from the front of the layout. All my operators (me, no 1 son and Phil )are "trained" in how to operate them and usually that brings many nice comments about how sound, propperly done adds to the layout. Far to many sound locos at exhibitions are too loud, nearly as bad as being next to a video stall all day!

 Its rare for us to have more than 2-3 in sound at one time even when i had the depot layout on on show. of course there were times the whole depot was alive, but that was usually special requests!

[ElTesha]

OK, thanks for some interesting responses. .......................................

 

.................One DCC question, in DC wiring a siding becomes dead when the turnout is set against it thus preventing accidental loco movement into an incorrectly set turnout. Is it set up the same way in DCC or is the siding always energised regardless of the turnout setting? This surely is the only way a loco can idle in a closed siding, but if so how do you ensure against incorrect loco movement?

Hi Jeff,

 

II Know this is a bit late but...........

 

In response to this question, as has been said, with DCC the whole track work is always live at the normal voltage, However no loco will move until a control signal is sent to it's decoder.  Of course several locos can move at the same time because it is the decoder that controls the loco and ultimately the controller that sends the control signal to the decoder, this is why it is often said that with DC you drive the track but with DCC you are driving the loco, thus giving a more realistic experience.

 

.As for the question of improving control of the loco, in my experience it makes a considerable difference even in older and cheaper locos.  As an experiment I added a cheap Hornby decoder (as fitted to 'DCC fitted' locos - available as a spare) to an old Hornby Pug and it made a considerable difference to the slow control of this toy like item.

 

The wiring for DC systems is much more complex than that for DCC, so I would suggest using the latter from the start, I for one would never start a new project using DC now.  After all I would never go back to driving a car with 1940s technology when I can have electronic engine control, fuel injection, climate control and ABS on all round discs (not to mention surround sound with CD player and stereo radio!), would you?

 

Terry

[faulcon1]

I have around 80 British locos and all have been fitted with Loksound decoders by Howes. I've also had some Bachmann ones reblown by Howes but have 2 New South Wales Beyer Garratts by Eureka Models which have generic Quantum QSI 'American' sounds and they 'chuff' to a halt.

I'm happy with the sounds I have (except the Garratts) but it is an emotive subject. What one person thinks is fantastic another person will think is rubbish. In this case 'beauty is in the ear of the listener'.

[HLT 0109]

I have around 80 British locos and all have been fitted with Loksound decoders by Howes. I've also had some Bachmann ones reblown by Howes but have 2 New South Wales Beyer Garratts by Eureka Models which have generic Quantum QSI 'American' sounds and they 'chuff' to a halt.

I'm happy with the sounds I have (except the Garratts) but it is an emotive subject. What one person thinks is fantastic another person will think is rubbish. In this case 'beauty is in the ear of the listener'.

 

Quite so.  On the subject of "chuffing to a halt" it is often the way the loco is driven.  I have made several videos of my layout including one in which my Jinty with Howes sound does that but I realised later that it was because I slowed it by gradually reducing the speed steps on the controller; if I had set a higher number in CV 4 and reduced the speed steps quickly, the loco would have coasted to a halt.  The problem then is judging the stopping distance correctly.

 

Harold.

[SRman]

With Howes sounds, generally you can drop the throttle setting dramatically just briefly then throttle up a bit to maintain movement and control while the sounds are at idle (for diesels) or clanking/no chuffing (for steam). Having the high momentum/inertia settings makes for a much more realistic experience and also adds to the challenge of actually 'driving' the locomotive - somethng I enjoy!

With the NCE Power Cab / Power Pro throttles, I usually use the fast increment / decrement buttons to achieve the change from chuffing (or full power on diesels) to coasting. AS an example, I may have the train running at speed step 63 (128 steps) with chuffing. I then press the fast decrement button once and this drops the speed setting to 53 and sets the coasting effect. As soon as the chuffing stops, I hit the fast increment button t take the speed setting back up to 63. WHile the speed setting is at 53 the loco is slowing only slighty, due to the high setting in CV4.

Variations of the above occur for coasting to a halt. Having hit the fast decrement button once, and stopped the chuffing, I increase the speed setting only slightly using the wheel, then gradually wind the speed back down until I control the stop at the desired point.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

As far as I am aware the ESU Loksound chip at V3.5 and above requires careful adjustment of the threshold values between the main sound slots and the deceleration box to get any coasting effect.

 

It took us programmers absolute ages to find this facility and learn how to use it.

 

Without proper programming, any amount of throttle movement won't make too much of a difference. I put a threshold value of -1 in to get my Class 03 diesel shunter to work properly and that was after discovering that my Tangmere could be programmed to do this but only if I twisted the throttle shut quickly. I seem to recall that I used 28 in the threshold box.

 

i have yet to discover whether this threshold adjustment is capable of being changed by CV alone but i doubt it would be wise as it requires ten different values for a five speed step project.

 

The same applies to extra throttle thrash on acceleration.

[Oldddudders]

I have around 80 British locos and all have been fitted with Loksound decoders by Howes. I've also had some Bachmann ones reblown by Howes but have 2 New South Wales Beyer Garratts by Eureka Models which have generic Quantum QSI 'American' sounds and they 'chuff' to a halt.

I'm happy with the sounds I have (except the Garratts) but it is an emotive subject. What one person thinks is fantastic another person will think is rubbish. In this case 'beauty is in the ear of the listener'.

Have you read this? I am not aware that QSI decoders "chuff" to a halt, and clearly nor is the writer.

 

http://qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/throttle-cutoff-modes.html

[faulcon1]

Have you read this? I am not aware that QSI decoders "chuff" to a halt, and clearly nor is the writer.

 

http://qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/throttle-cutoff-modes.html

Well the QSI decoders in my Garratts do. I have the funny feeling that the sounds are 'American' as no New South Wales Garratt is in working order here in Australia and haven't been since the last one (6029) was withdrawn from tourist operations in the 1980's. I've been advised that the sounds in the decoder in the Garratt are 'pure' Australian sounds, but I doubt that.

Unlike Howes which uses whenever possible the genuine sounds, Eureka just uses 'foreign' steam sounds. There was a review of the Eureka Garratt when it first appeared on the Model Rail Forum. They like I found that some of the functions didn't match what was written in the instruction manual. This is not good for a loco costing nearly $1,000 Australian.  

[pauliebanger]

Have you read this? I am not aware that QSI decoders "chuff" to a halt, and clearly nor is the writer.

 

http://qsisolutions.com/products/techinfo/throttle-cutoff-modes.html

 

Interesting article. The author uses different terminology, but admits that they do indeed 'Chuff to a halt', but at reduced volume.

 

This was the first hit on YT searching for 'QSI steam locomotive'

 

Check it out from 2min 35 sec, and you will clearly hear 'chuffing to an absolute halt'. YT is full of such examples.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

As far as I am aware the ESU Loksound chip at V3.5 and above requires careful adjustment of the threshold values between the main sound slots and the deceleration box to get any coasting effect.

 

It took us programmers absolute ages to find this facility and learn how to use it.

 

Without proper programming, any amount of throttle movement won't make too much of a difference. I put a threshold value of -1 in to get my Class 03 diesel shunter to work properly and that was after discovering that my Tangmere could be programmed to do this but only if I twisted the throttle shut quickly. I seem to recall that I used 28 in the threshold box.

 

i have yet to discover whether this threshold adjustment is capable of being changed by CV alone but i doubt it would be wise as it requires ten different values for a five speed step project.

 

The same applies to extra throttle thrash on acceleration.

 

What a rigmarole. That explains a lot.

 

With ZIMO all you need to do is set CV 284 = 1, then drifting (as 'coasting' is called for steam locomotives) starts if the speed step is reduced by 1 of 128. Simples!

 

Takes out all the guesswork on how much you should close the throttle and re-open it to keep the loco moving. Just drop it one speed step, that's it, drifting.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

What a rigmarole. That explains a lot.

 

With ZIMO all you need to do is set CV 284 = 1, then drifting (as 'coasting' is called for steam locomotives) starts if the speed step is reduced by 1 of 128. Simples!

 

Takes out all the guesswork on how much you should close the throttle and re-open it to keep the loco moving. Just drop it one speed step, that's it, drifting.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

Possibly Paul but of course there is the facility to have different sounds within the drifting. It is possible with care to have a different rod clank or valve pop in each speed slot deceleration and you can skip them by adjustment of thresholds and judicious use of the throttle. Complicated it might be and a bit off topic but a useful attribute.

 

This is knowledge based on the V3.5 and i believe the V4 is even more capable in multi channelling.

 

It was just as we had all mastered the V3.5 and were beginning to write some really good projects when the V4 was brought in and we all started again.

 

In essence though the RTR market is somewhat less fussy than the programmers so a good project can sometimes be well short of the decoder's capability and still be commercially successful.

[pauliebanger]

Possibly Paul but of course there is the facility to have different sounds within the drifting. It is possible with care to have a different rod clank or valve pop in each speed slot deceleration and you can skip them by adjustment of thresholds and judicious use of the throttle. Complicated it might be and a bit off topic but a useful attribute.

 

This is knowledge based on the V3.5 and i believe the V4 is even more capable in multi channelling.

 

It was just as we had all mastered the V3.5 and were beginning to write some really good projects when the V4 was brought in and we all started again.

 

In essence though the RTR market is somewhat less fussy than the programmers so a good project can sometimes be well short of the decoder's capability and still be commercially successful.

David,

 

There's no 'possibly' about it. That's what happens, one CV sets the threshold for drifting, from any speed. If you use the default value (1) then from any speed, reduce speed steps by one and drifting starts, one speed step up, drifting ends and the loco chuffs. Easy to programme, even easier to use. Just smooth, logical movement of the regulator.

 

BTW, Zimo can have up to 10 different, speed related, drifting sounds.

 

I suspect you are right about what manufacturers think r-t-r customers want, that's why Bachmann are migrating to Soundraxx sound decoders for next years' models.

 

Paul

[newbryford]

Zimo can have up to 10 different, speed related, drifting sounds.

 

Paul

 

My decoder is better than your decoder.............    

 

Cheers,

Mick

[pauliebanger]

My decoder is better than your decoder.............    

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

It's like a pantomime here.

 

Oh no it's not! Ha ha.

 

Paul

[two tone green]

Loksound V4 has the same facility, drop the speed step by one, what ever is set and it goes into coast.

 

Also you can have coast on a function key as well

[Mallard60022]

My decoder in my head has just 'fizzed'..............too much weird language for an old bloke like me.

P