DCC Sound - is it just a novelty?

[Jeff Smith]

I realize this could be an emotional topic but I'm considering a new layout in a new (for me) scale (0n30/0-16.50), and therefore also considering moving to DCC.  I have read a lot and basically understand the DCC concept and advantages but in truth would probably only be operating 2 or 3 locos at a time on a simple oval two sided layout with maybe 5 turnouts per side.  DCC sound has grabbed my attention, ie if moving to DCC why not go the whole hog and include sound?  However You-Tube and other videos have left me with a feeling of novelty rather than envy.  Perhaps I have not seen good videos but those I have seen sound tinny and unconvincing....also most seem to be on unfinished layouts almost highlighting the novelty value rather than integration into an overall realistic scene.  I am normally a P4 model maker rather than operator so a running layout with some RTR equipment (Bachmann 0n30) is a new departure.

 

I'm sure I will get plenty of responses saying it's the best thing since sliced bread but lets cut to the chase and hear from detractors as well as supporters.

[Silver Sidelines]

If you have a small layout and no where for trains to go you might as well have them 'sat' there making noises - gives you an alternative to running them.  As regards the quality of sound - reminds me of discussions back in the sixties and seventies with regard to HiFi equipment.  If you want to reproduce proper bass sounds you need speakers with some mass behind them - I do believe it might be an energy thing.  I am yet to be persuaded about Digital and if you listen to the

of my layout - you wouldn't be able to hear much engine sound because of the clickety click from the wheels.  Far better to have some good strategically placed speakers in the room playing general railway noises?

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Nigelcliffe]

Lots of sound is, quite frankly, rubbish.   Steam locos chuffing to stop, sounds which are distorted, wrong for the loco, etc..  Poorly installed speakers.  

 

I find sound tends to work best as low level "background" noises, not in the foreground.   Done that way it seems to add quite a bit to things without dominating; the loco "hisses" quietly, or clanks a little.   I find loud foreground sound to be generally poor, often very repetitive and lacking in subtleties.  So, once installed and setup, I turn the volume down a lot.

 

For On30 US outline, and assuming steam outline, suggest trying a SoundTraxx decoder (they usually have off-the-shelf options to match various On30 prototypes), a careful speaker installation (there are lots of guides on this), and turn the volume down.   Setup the decoder so that the decelleration (CV4) is very high, and make use of the "brake" function on SoundTraxx decoders (default is, I think, F11 key, but can be moved).   Result will be that if you turn the speed control down the loco will "coast" correctly, and if you tap the brake key it will decellerate on the brakes.  You can also hold the loco on the brake with the throttle (speed control) open, and the loco won't move off until the brake is released (handy at low speed settings for shunting moves).    The sound from SoundTraxx is usually good, but the downside of SoundTraxx decoders is that the motor control is only "OK" rather than best in market.  The ESU LokSound Select range might be an alternative with good sounds off-the-shelf and better motor control. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Mod5]

This is yet another subject that has been covered before.  It is also one that can create a strong division with extreme views expressed.  By all means let Jeff have your thoughts but if we can stick to reasonable posts it would be of more assistance to him as it will prevent us from locking it early.

 

Jeff this is one of those Marmite topics.  People either love DCC sound or they hate it.  I doubt very much if you will be any wiser at the end of the thread and the only way to find out is to listen to a few yourself and see how it fits in with your plans.  Youtube vids  *(and there is a thread with them on here) are not the best way for you to hear the sound quality and assess it properly so if you can visit a show or dealer it would be better in some respects but even then a show with all of the background noise isn't any indication of what it will sound in your own home.

 

Good luck with it.

 

*  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/333-dcc-sound-videos/

[PaulRhB]

The pros and cons are covered in quite a few topics and the general consensus is that like any modelling its good if done well. You have to pick and choose the chips and sounds that sound right to you and most importantly consider the volume so the sound is scaled correctly too. YouTube isn't very good for comparing sounds unfortunately due to the cameras used often being unable to pick up the lower frequencies.

Search around the sound topics for the opinions for and against , for US narrow gauge steam I'd recommend Soundtraxx Tsunamis and invest in a pc programmer like SPROG to get the best from them. Buy a decoder and play with it and I hope you'll realise sound has reached a decent standard if used well.

[emac]

I have a few DCC sound locos steam and Diesel and must admit they can get annoying just running around the track after a while, but I enjoy the sound on my shunting plank and to me bring another dimention to the hobby.

Starting up and bringing a loco to 'life" does give a little bit of satisfaction especially when you have fitted it all yourself.

Many on here will go to great lengths; and why not, to make their modelling as authentic as possible sound is or can be part of that realism in miniture.

Eddie

[roundhouse]

I would suggest that you visit a few shows that have some On30 layouts that are DCC and sound. I know it may not be easy to work out which layouts do but to hear them in the flesh is probably a better way of determining them. Ok if its a busy show you may not get quite the full feel.

 

 

Another option to consider for American outline layouts is the Surrountraxx system. its made by Soundtraxx, the maker of the Tsunami range of decoders.

 

It is a box with the osunds pre installed for deisels and steam. It doesonly work with the Digitrax DCC system to work (at the moment anyway). You can plug in up to six speakers or 5 speakers and a subwoofer. and thats it if you want stationary sound. Your layout would probaly be Ok with this simple set up if it is not that long.

 

However if you want the sound to move with the loco you can do that by fitting Digitrax decoders fitted with Transponding (or you can but a function only transpondin decoder to add to a non transponging decoder. You will also need aDigitrax block section circuit and RX4 transponing detectors and wire the layout up in block sections.

 

It does take a little bit of reading to get all this working but I think it is worth it if you want good sound levels. I have this system on Santa Barbara and had it working with transponding for the first itme at the ALton show in feb 2013. it will be at the derby show this year and I should have tweeeked the settings a bit more plus fitted transponding decoders to some of the non Digitrax decoder fitted locos by then for any one who wants to see this system in action.

 

The Surroundtrax box is over £400 but that is only 4 sound decoders so if you have quite a few locos then it becomes quite cost effective (the block detection and transponding is over £100).

Also at shows you can control the volume with just one volume knob.

[t-b-g]

I have a slight involvement with a couple of layouts equipped with DCC and sound. There is actually something quite satisfying to hear a loco sizzling away at a platform end, then a toot on the whistle and away.

 

The sounds I have heard so far don't really replicate the real thing because you only get the loco noise, not the train noise but it does add a little something, especially if it is at a sensible volume.

 

I really don't see anything wrong with a "gimmick" like sound, if it is done sensibly as regards volume and utilisation. Having six locos with sound on in a fiddle yard spoils it and if you can still hear the sound when the loco is idling a scale half mile away that spoils it too.

 

I have made some highly negative comments about DCC sound on here before but they have all been related to massively over high volume levels or locos whistling away at full volume for hours in fiddle yards!

 

Sadly, some of the worst offenders have been American layouts and narrow gauge ones at that! Constant bell, air pump and whistle noises at loud volumes are enough to convince anybody that DCC sound is not just a novelty but that it has already long outlived its welcome.

 

But sympathetically done at reasonable volumes, perhaps with some subtle background noises too, I think it can really create a bit of atmosphere around a layout.

[roundhouse]

I have made some highly negative comments about DCC sound on here before but they have all been related to massively over high volume levels or locos whistling away at full volume for hours in fiddle yards!

 i should have mentioned that if using the transponding on the Surroundtraxx box then you can exclude the fiddleyard from the sound zones so locos go quiet in the fiddleyard.

 

Alternatively have section switches in the fiddleyard.

 

Regarding bell noise, its always best to keep that level down a lot in the CV vlaues of the sound decoder and keep its use to  a minimum - its something I try to get our operators to do at shows.

 

Ian

[reddo]

As implied above - DCC Sound is a very Marmite and subjective issue. For me - Supporter - so if you decide to go ahead:

 

Buy the best quality and latest recordings (check key YT videos as you have done by Class and sound provider)

Select actual loco recordings (not generic sounds)

Dont be afraid to buy the decoder yourself and retro-install the decoder and speaker - Hornby Magazine has run several of Paul Chetters projects. These will be superor to off-the shelf products by Hornby and Bachmann

If selecting stock products - simply upgrade the std speaker to a Bass Enhanced etc as below

Select good quality Bass Enhanced, Bass Reflex, 'Sugar Cube' or Eckig speakers (check Digitrains and DCC Supplies websites)

 

You can always run part DCC and part anaolgue as well as long as the tracks and controllers are seperate

 

Good luck

[Jeff Smith]

OK, thanks for some interesting responses. The layout as envisaged will be 2x8 feet boxed in on the sides and top, museum diorama style. This would I guess concentrate the sound somewhat and actually only require moderate volume. I think I will initially operate it on DC but wire it with DCC in mind, then step up to DCC and finally perhaps to sound....

 

One DCC question, in DC wiring a siding becomes dead when the turnout is set against it thus preventing accidental loco movement into an incorrectly set turnout. Is it set up the same way in DCC or is the siding always energised regardless of the turnout setting? This surely is the only way a loco can idle in a closed siding, but if so how do you ensure against incorrect loco movement?

[Nickey Line]

The siding should have an insulated break in at least the rail leading from the crossing (frog), and the siding should have feeds from the DCC bus, and therefore will always be live. An incorrect move will be prevented by a short if you drive the loco over the rail break with the point set against it.

[Nigelcliffe]

 

One DCC question, in DC wiring a siding becomes dead when the turnout is set against it thus preventing accidental loco movement into an incorrectly set turnout. Is it set up the same way in DCC or is the siding always energised regardless of the turnout setting? This surely is the only way a loco can idle in a closed siding, but if so how do you ensure against incorrect loco movement?

 

If you want the engine to idle, then the siding must be live.   Therefore, the only switching of current is at the turnout crossing (frog).   If wiring for DC (with auto-isolation in a siding) with view of swapping to DCC, then wire the siding with a separate wire to that feeding the frog, so it's fairly simple to swap the wiring arrangements.

 

You prevent short circuit engine movements into closed turnouts by whatever mechanism you like...   Instructing operators not to be muppets, track sensors and automated devices which will throw the turnout (or stop the loco whilst still maintaining power) are all possible. 

 

 

- Nigel

[Talltim]

The loco will only move if you tell it to move (as opposed to in DC where it will move even if you meant to move another loco but they were on the same electrical section of track.) If you specifically move that loco it will attempt to move across the turnout whichever way they are set, the same as a real loco, and probably derail and or trip the breaker in the power supply

[Jeff Smith]

OK, all good advice, many thanks.

 

One final question - does DCC provide for better slow running assuming track and wheels are clean? Has anyone compared the same loco before and after being chipped?

[Nickey Line]

Generally speaking I'd say yes, but it's dependent on the loco and the chip. Better results will (usually!) be achieved with the more expensive chips, and the loco/chip combination will make a difference too, i.e. the same chip will give different results in different locos.

 

You'll gather from this that there's no hard and fast rules...!

[Nigelcliffe]

OK, all good advice, many thanks.

 

One final question - does DCC provide for better slow running assuming track and wheels are clean? Has anyone compared the same loco before and after being chipped?

 

Yes I have done comparisons and wouldn't be using DCC if the answer wasn't positive.   BUT, it does depend on the chip and type of motor and sometimes variations in examples of individual model  (when I did my tests on my models, I had some expensive and generally well regarded chips which were much worse than DC *on my models*, but I had a few decoders which were consistently much better than DC, hence my decision to fit them). 

You may have to "tune" the chip with various CV changes to get optimum performance.   As a general rule, control quality is better in the more expensive European chips, such as ESU, Zimo and (for very small models) CT. 

 

DCC can't fix a badly running DC loco;  DCC isn't "magic". A loco has to run well mechanically and electrically first.

 

- Nigel

[Guest jim s-w]

Personally when I first got into sound I thought it was superb but for me the novelty wore off quite quickly and I regret spending the money on it that I did.

 

The reason why is 2 fold, It detracts from the actual modelling.  People think a model is good because it has sound even if its out of the box while a model that doesn't have sound but has had a lot of work done to it to get it closer to the real thing is kind of ignored.

 

Secondly it draws your attention to it - or rather the lack of sound from other places.  Once you realise this it seems very odd indeed.  Nothing is more obvious than a steam locos exhaust beat with no visible sign of exhaust.  

 

I do think sound has a future but not the way its been done so far - I think thats a dead end TBH,  Some sort of layout based surround sound system is going to be more like it.  I guess for me (and this is a personal opinion) sound is good but the way its done now its not good enough and I dont think it ever will be.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Jeff Smith]

This thread has pretty well confirmed my concerns and convinced me that the extra up-front money for sound (and even perhaps DCC) would be better spent on other aspects of the hobby, at least until I get well into layout construction.

[HLT 0109]

Well!  I am somewhat surprised by the consensus of the responses but recognise the sense of Nigels balanced summary.  I have only been railway modelling for four years or so and was persuaded particularly by the availability of sound and the simplicity of DCC.  There is a novelty value to sound but I think it is possible to get results that complement one's modelling rather than make up for its deficiencies.

 

As a P4 modeller, Jeff, you clearly take great care with your modelling; if you take the same care with the choice of chip/sound and in setting it up, I feel sure you will enjoy using it.  Peiple like Nigel, Paul Chetter and Legoman Biffo are helping to make vast improvements in what is available and this will no doubt continue.  So, I would suggest you take your time in making your choices but that you do not dismiss it altogether.  After all, if you've got it, you can choose whether or not to turn it on.

 

As you suggest, you can add sound at a later date; with DCC itself, however, it would be more difficult to change.  I think it would be a mistake to leave it to later - do it now!

 

Harold.

[TheSignalEngineer]

DCC sound only gives a very small part of the overall sound of the railway. Sounds not in sync with what the loco is supposed to be doing detract from the effect rather than add to it. A nice 7mm job I saw recently that was giving a good impression of a two-and-a-half cylinder engine because the sound didn't change as the speed did.

 

Anyone who wants to hear what the steam railway really sounded like should listen to Peter Handford's recordings such as 'Shap', which was put out as a 12" LP by Transacord c1961. Even going up a 1 in 76 bank the sound of the loco is only the dominant part for a very short time.

[D421]

I think Dcc sound IS getting there...Regarding the steam issue I'm sure the latest chips offer chuffs per revolution or something so this is a step in the right direction...Over the point by Jim I've seen dcc steam loco's with smoke units that emit as it chuffs.

I understand also Jim your point over people being drawn to a sound loco than another maybe highly detailed models....This is human nature playing it's part...We ALL use our 3 main senses eyes, ears and smell....A highly detailed model looks the part but adding sound takes it a step further to what we've experienced in life....Look at how at a show people stop and look at a video more than look at a photo...Though the photo is probably far better to look at....The video is offering both visual and sound...It's what we recall more of....

I've known an exhibitor put a bag of REALLY oily smelly rags underneath the layout to give the atmosphere and yes he's had comments by watchers 'Oh the smell takes me back' along from his partner 'YES me too but not for your reasons!!!!!' Lol....

I use Dcc sound and have had many positive comments about this and of modeling in general....

Regards

D421

[chaz]

My layout has been DCC controlled for more than ten years. Three or four years ago a friend brought along a tank engine with sound to a running session. It was an instant conversion for me!   I have 15 O gauge locos (a mix of steam and diesel) and I put sound in all of them.

These are the pros and cons as I see them....

 

Cons first

1   cost - seriously more than a "plain" DCC decoder

2   Diesels ticking over in a siding quickly become annoying

3   steam - it can be difficult to get them to coast with the regulator closed - depends on how the sound project has been set up

4   steam - often impossible to get a loco to move off with just a wisp of steam and no chuffs - but the Zimo chip I have just installed does this

5   random sounds can be a nuisance (too frequent) so I switch these off if I can

6   Sound often lacking bass frequencies - inevitable with such small speakers - it's basic physics

7   A loco stall is made even more obvious

8   the transition from layout to fiddle yard can be less than perfect - downright abrupt for me!

Now the pros

1   Sound gives a good idea of running speed - providing an attempt has been made to synchronise it

2   Latest generation of chips allow steam locos to run easy or work hard

3   sound is fun, and adds considerably to the effect

 

It looks like the cons win hands down, doesn't it?   Not for me!   The most telling point is that for numerous running sessions since I "went sound" I have offered my guest operators a "stealth" session, but we have never run the layout with the sound off.

 

Chaz

[PaulRhB]

DCC sound only gives a very small part of the overall sound of the railway. Sounds not in sync with what the loco is supposed to be doing detract from the effect rather than add to it. A nice 7mm job I saw recently that was giving a good impression of a two-and-a-half cylinder engine because the sound didn't change as the speed did.

 

Anyone who wants to hear what the steam railway really sounded like should listen to Peter Handford's recordings such as 'Shap', which was put out as a 12" LP by Transacord c1961. Even going up a 1 in 76 bank the sound of the loco is only the dominant part for a very short time.

Exactly and there are numerous suitable sound effects cds plus several specially created ones for model railways. Like the loco sounds they need to be subtle and on my Swiss layout it took some several minutes to realise there was a running water sound down at the river as you could barely hear it. I do like the better sound of a under board system but again people then turn the bass up too much and it does require quite a lot of expensive kit to split up all the sections to detect where the trains are. My personal preference would be a single bass speaker off the main controller with a chip attached and then the individually chipped locos emphasising where they are with the onboard speakers and some way of controlling all of the chips volume while on the track together. Being able to do this would make adapting to quiet and noisy spells at a show much easier. Currently in OO I can switch the sound level on the ESU chips but have to select each one every time I want to turn it up or down, having a clever unit that sends out a signal to all addresses and has either a pot or up and down button.

[HLT 0109]

A model railway will never sound like a real one because of the small size of the layout.  When we hear a real train, we hear it approach, pass and go away; on our layouts we hear it all the time.  When we are on a steam train, we hardly hear the chuffs but we (used to) hear the clackety clack over the rail joints.  What we hear on a layout where locos are not sound fitted is the groan of some of the electric motors.  For me, the sound of the chuffs or the diesel engine is preferable but too many at once (and too loud) is unbearable!

 

Something I do not like to see at exhibitions, is operations where locos start and stop too quickly; sound helps me control my locos better because, as D421 says, we use all our senses, and waiting for the sound process helps achieve better running.

 

Harold.