Level crossing stupidity...

[Titan]

I thought that the usual procedure was to instruct the crossing user to call back when the crossing is clear, and until then no train would be permitted. If the user fails to call back after a reasonable time, then the next train would be sent through under caution so that the driver can either stop short of the crossing or confirm that the crossing is clear.

[Glorious NSE]

I thought that the usual procedure was to instruct the crossing user to call back when the crossing is clear, and until then no train would be permitted. If the user fails to call back after a reasonable time, then the next train would be sent through under caution so that the driver can either stop short of the crossing or confirm that the crossing is clear.

As in 2.1.2 in Mike's link above?

[martin_wynne]

PS I am slightly amused that RSSB and the Plain English mob don't know the difference between a Regulation and an Instruction as technically and legally the contents of this document are Instructions, not Regulations - not that I am surprised by their ignorance.

 

And RAIB got the date wrong in the press release.

 

But hardly anyone anywhere now seems able to get things right. Someone somewhere must have successfully cancelled a direct debit first time, or changed internet provider without incident, but I don't know anyone.

 

In the news just today we have a schools spelling test posted online by mistake, and the Conservative Party failing to record their election expenses correctly. Here the local council have just painted a bus stop on the wrong side of the road.

 

Martin.

Edited April 22, 2016 by martin_wynne

[martin_wynne]

For Martin's information (and others who are interested) here will be found the relevant Instructions for Signalmen (sorry - 'lers' in modern PC speak)

 

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TS9%20Iss%203.pdf

 

 

Thanks Mike.

 

"2.1.2 Animals or large, low or slow-moving vehicles or a trolley with small wheels"

 

But nowhere can I find a definition for how large or how slow-moving?

 

A farm tractor with a loaded trailer would be both of those in my judgement. But that's just me. Where does it actually say so?

 

2.1.2 requires the crossing to be protected by the signals in that case. But not otherwise. So I now know that to be entirely safe when using such a crossing, I should tell the signaller that I have a flock of sheep with me.

 

Martin.

[PhilJ W]

If they can't even get the date right how reliable is the rest of the statement?

[martin_wynne]

For Martin's information (and others who are interested) here will be found the relevant Instructions for Signalmen (sorry - 'lers' in modern PC speak)

 

http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TS9%20Iss%203.pdf

 

 

p.s. Mike,

 

There is an update with slightly changed wording at:

 

 http://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-TS9%20Iss%204.pdf

 

Martin.

[rab]

I don't think you can have driven a tractor if you think it possible to open the gates, get back on, drive across, get down, and close them again, in 30 seconds.

 

The most likely reason for a delay would be a mechanical problem -- often with the trailer.

 

What are the official instructions about how long the "it is safe to cross now" permission is valid for? Are users given a time limit for getting across, or told when the next train will use the crossing? Just asking the user how long they need seems very unreliable -- most folks are poor at judging time. How long is "it will only take me a moment"?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Or if in Cornwall, " I'll be finished dreckly"!

[beast66606]

I don't think you can have driven a tractor if you think it possible to open the gates, get back on, drive across, get down, and close them again, in 30 seconds.

 

I don't think you can have used a level crossing if you don't understand the concept of OPEN THE GATES FIRST

[Colin_McLeod]

There's potentially a lot more to this incident than that quote implies - for example the tractor driver might have phoned for permission and then spent several minutes (maybe he hadn't opened the gates when he phoned initially) before attempting to cross having told the signaller he would only require 30 seconds, without fixed signals in place the signaller is unable to stop any trains if the tractor (in this case) starts taking an extended length of time, or perhaps the tractor driver said it would only take 30 seconds to cross and forgot he had a heavy trailer behind him and made a lot slower progress than he expected - again without fixed signals to protect the crossing the signaller is at the mercy of the user giving *accurate* information.

This is speculation as to possible faults by the tractor driver. Further speculation might say the signalman gave permission when he should not have for whatever reason or misunderstanding. Further speculation may blame the train driver (e.g SPAD). Without the facts we should not be speculating in a biased way (i.e. in this case biased in favour of the railway) Edited April 22, 2016 by Colin_McLeod

[beast66606]

If the Signalman has done his part correctly it then comes down to exactly the sort of situation Beast has spelt out in his post above.  Hopefully the inquiry will manage to establish exactly what took place.

 

Beast may of course have further info on the subject, for instance he may have spoken to someone who knows the tractor driver.

[royaloak]

There's potentially a lot more to this incident than that quote implies - for example the tractor driver might have phoned for permission and then spent several minutes

My thoughts exactly, how long did the tractor driver say it would take for him to get across and exactly when was that permission given in relation to the proximity of the train and the actual time of the collision!

 

That will be one of the main things focused on by the investigation!

 

Some farmers are excellent and will get on with it as soon as permission is given and ring back as soon as they are finished, others will take all the time they want as if the world revolves around them, others will fall in between, we dont know the facts about this 'incident' to make our minds up yet.

Edited April 22, 2016 by royaloak

[Glorious NSE]

I don't think you can have used a level crossing if you don't understand the concept of OPEN THE GATES FIRST

Opening the gates before you cross is listed in the instructions. Opening the gates before you phone the signaller is not...

[royaloak]

I don't think you can have driven a tractor if you think it possible to open the gates, get back on, drive across, get down, and close them again, in 30 seconds.

 

The most likely reason for a delay would be a mechanical problem -- often with the trailer.

 

What are the official instructions about how long the "it is safe to cross now" permission is valid for? Are users given a time limit for getting across, or told when the next train will use the crossing? Just asking the user how long they need seems very unreliable -- most folks are poor at judging time. How long is "it will only take me a moment"?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

When asking for permission common courtesy is to state what you are crossing with and how long you expect it to take, that way the signaller can make an informed decision.

 

You shouldnt be opening the gates beforehand because you havent been given permission, only once permission is given do you have control over the gates and crossing.

Edited April 22, 2016 by royaloak

[Colin_McLeod]

Beast may of course have further info on the subject, for instance he may have spoken to someone who knows the tractor driver.

But is he allowed to say? Oops. Sorry wrong thread!

[beast66606]

Opening the gates before you cross is listed in the instructions. Opening the gates before you phone the signaller is not...

 

But then the tractor driver wouldn't have said 30 seconds if he knew he had to open all the gates - in theory at least.

But is he allowed to say? Oops. Sorry wrong thread!

 

No - I'm not a senior Network Rail manager, apparently they are the only ones allowed to comment (According to one source)

[martin_wynne]

I don't think you can have used a level crossing if you don't understand the concept of OPEN THE GATES FIRST

 

Or if no gates, get down on your knees and pray:

 

 https://goo.gl/maps/58HV8GxnQtF2

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

No - I'm not a senior Network Rail manager, apparently they are the only ones allowed to comment (According to one source)

 

They are not the only ones allowed to comment.

 

But I believe they are the only ones who can justifiably say "I know more than I can tell you", and then only if they post in their real name.

 

Martin.

[Glorious NSE]

When asking for permission common courtesy is to state what you are crossing with and how long you expect it to take, that way the signaller can make an informed decision.

 

You shouldnt be opening the gates beforehand because you havent been given permission, only once permission is given do you have control over the gates and crossing.

 

But then the tractor driver wouldn't have said 30 seconds if he knew he had to open all the gates - in theory at least.

I'm not convinced an olympic sprinter in a sports car could use such a crossing in under 30 seconds including opening and closing gates, there seems to be/have been a lot of assumptions going on between the parties if that kind of thing is at the root of it.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Glorious NSE

[martin_wynne]

I'm definitely not going to open the gates first if I have a flock of sheep with me.

[beast66606]

I'm not convinced an olympic sprinter in a sports car could use such a crossing in under 30 seconds including opening and closing gates, there seems to be/have been a lot of assumptions going on between the parties if that kind of thing is at the root of it.

 

He would have said "2 minutes" if he knew he had to open the gates, closing is a safety issue but shouldn't have any bearing on the time it takes for the vehicle to cross.  I was giving EXAMPLES of what could have happened, not quoting chapter and verse about every possible combination of things.

[beast66606]

I'm definitely not going to open the gates first if I have a flock of sheep with me.

 

But then you would ring before crossing and factor in the time it takes to open the gate, fire the dogs up and get the animals across and close at least the gate behind the animals to stop them recrossing.

[Titan]

Thanks Mike.

 

"2.1.2 Animals or large, low or slow-moving vehicles or a trolley with small wheels"

 

But nowhere can I find a definition for how large or how slow-moving?

 

A farm tractor with a loaded trailer would be both of those in my judgement. But that's just me. Where does it actually say so?

 

2.1.2 requires the crossing to be protected by the signals in that case. But not otherwise. So I now know that to be entirely safe when using such a crossing, I should tell the signaller that I have a flock of sheep with me.

 

Martin.

 

 

 

Bear in mind that all tractors are capable of at least 20mph, Modern ones similar to the one in the accident with the relatively small trailer are powerful and capable of up to 40mph. It could have got across the railway as fast as any lorry, if not faster.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Titan

[petethemole]

From a standing start just outside the gate it's not going to make that speed.

[martin_wynne]

 

Bear in mind that all tractors are capable of at least 20mph, Modern ones similar to the one in the accident with the relatively small trailer are powerful and capable of up to 40mph. It could have got across the railway as fast as any lorry, if not faster.

 

Thanks for the pic of the sign. But that's on a smooth main road, where a tractor and trailer could be expected to cross within the ordinary flow of traffic without needing to stop.

 

Was that sign in place at the user-worked crossing in this incident? And do the same dimensions apply in that case?

 

Whichever, it seems clear that the driver did phone for permission.

 

What we don't know is what information was given to the signaller, and whether as a result section 2.1.1 or section 2.1.2 was applicable. As far as I can see that is entirely down to the signaller to decide. It seems that the differentiation between those two sections is not based on anyone's estimation of the difficulty or time taken to cross, but solely on the dimensions of the vehicle. A farm tractor and trailer probably falls within the dimensions given on the sign, but it would surely be safer to assume 2.1.2 applies for such a vehicle on a farm road.

 

Martin.

[Titan]

When I was driving them you could make 5mph from a standing start with a tractor half the size of the one in the incident, and with a fully loaded trailer twice the size. With the low gearing and huge amounts of grip pulling away quickly was not a problem. And with the semi automatic gearboxes top speed could be reached very quickly - top speed being limited by top gear ratio and governed engine speed rather than power.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Titan