Level crossing stupidity...

[Arthur]

 

I am always reminded of the words of one of the police escort officers at the inquiry after the Hixon Crossing disaster, something like,

 

"I couldn't believe the speed at which it all happened"

 

For most people trains are something that whizz about in the background or come to a gracious halt at their station. Their understanding of railway operations and realities is zero.

[The Stationmaster]

I am always reminded of the words of one of the police escort officers at the inquiry after the Hixon Crossing disaster, something like,

 

"I couldn't believe the speed at which it all happened"

 

For most people trains are something that whizz about in the background or come to a gracious halt at their station. Their understanding of railway operations and realities is zero.

 

And alas even more so nowadays when far fewer people in country areas have anything at all to do with trains other than - perhaps - seeing them pass by.  Equally many most people would find it difficult to understand or visualise the sort of stopping distances required by a train, even if they regularly travel on them, thus judging how much time they have to cross in front of one is really a non-starter but they don't realise that.  

[ejstubbs]

Never mind trains - a lot of people round here (Edinburgh) don't even seem to understand how long it takes a bus to stop - due to its greater weight, and the fact that there are unrestrained passengers both seated and standing on board - despite sharing the roads with them every day.  I take the bus to work most days and the number of times I see pedestrians and cars making semi-suicidal lunges in front of approaching buses is quite disturbing.  Some people seem to have the idea that "bus = slow = time to get across" permanently lodged in their heads, and don't actually bother to observe what's actually going on in a particular situation in order to verify whether or not their default assumption is correct.

 

I suspect that in the case of both buses and trains some of the worst offenders are the ones who never actually use the public transport option in question, probably regarding it as slow, undignified and generally beneath them.  (Those same people often being quite happy to fly hither and yon at the drop of a hat, though, despite flying having become one of the most degrading forms of public transport known to man in the last couple of decades what with the increasingly intrusive security checks, full body scans, having to take your shoes off, cramped seating etc etc.)

Edited April 23, 2016 by ejstubbs

[Titan]

I think the problem is that people are not used to crossing in front of something travelling at high speed. Most people cross the road where the speed limit is 30mph, and you only need the car to be a relatively short distance away to be able to cross safely. The bigger the object and the further away it is the more difficult it is to judge the speed - an extreme example is how slowly jumbo jets seem to be moving when they are high in the sky.

 

So when someone sees a train quarter a mile away, which does not seem to be moving that quickly, they judge that they have more than enough time to cross without realising that they may have under 8 seconds before the train is upon them.

[RJS1977]

I agree. If you talk to members of the general public after a level crossing accident has been in the news, this belief is common. "Why didn't the train stop when it saw the car?"

 

 

 

And why should it be expected to? Just because a crossing exists, doesn't mean you have the right to expect a train to stop to allow you to cross.

[martin_wynne]

And why should it be expected to? Just because a crossing exists, doesn't mean you have the right to expect a train to stop to allow you to cross.

 

Expecting human beings to behave rationally and sensibly by themselves is never going to make level crossings safer (or anything else).

 

The object of the exercise is to find ways to make them change their existing behaviour. Which means understanding the way they think, even if that is clearly bonkers to me and you.

 

Martin.

[Mark Saunders]

The way that many Farmer think is that since they own the land on both sides of the line why should they have to close the gates, since it is their land!

 

Then the extreme I found was taking the gate off the hinges!

 

Mark Saunders

[Colin_McLeod]

That problem is easily solved by removing the crossing and building a wall where the gates used to be.

[The Stationmaster]

The way that many Farmer think is that since they own the land on both sides of the line why should they have to close the gates, since it is their land!

 

Then the extreme I found was taking the gate off the hinges!

 

Mark Saunders

 

The fence in fact belongs to the railway, not the farmer - so it isn't the farmer's gate to take away. 

That problem is easily solved by removing the crossing and building a wall where the gates used to be.

Which is of course exactly the sort of thing BR did on high speed lines - where occupation and accommodation crossings are not permitted.  Hence before the HSTs arrived dozens, if not hundreds(?), of such crossings were closed and in a number of cases alternatives were created - ideally by running a hard surfaced roadway parallel to the railway as far as the nearest public road crossing (usually a bridge).  In soem cases the process was much simpler where crossings clearly hadn't been used for many years and were simply closed although that involved legal process of course.

 

Logically an answer to continuing problems - and it has been done in some places - would be to adopt the same approach where the linespeed is lower but, as ever, it's matter of finance especially when there isn't a nice big scheme to attach it to.

[Mark Saunders]

The fence in fact belongs to the railway, not the farmer - so it isn't the farmer's gate to take away. 

Which is of course exactly the sort of thing BR did on high speed lines - where occupation and accommodation crossings are not permitted.  Hence before the HSTs arrived dozens, if not hundreds(?), of such crossings were closed and in a number of cases alternatives were created - ideally by running a hard surfaced roadway parallel to the railway as far as the nearest public road crossing (usually a bridge).  In soem cases the process was much simpler where crossings clearly hadn't been used for many years and were simply closed although that involved legal process of course.

 

Logically an answer to continuing problems - and it has been done in some places - would be to adopt the same approach where the linespeed is lower but, as ever, it's matter of finance especially when there isn't a nice big scheme to attach it to.

 

In the early 1990's there was a major programme of tagging crossings to see which ones were actually being used, they were sealed with a dated tag and if not used within a certain time the closure procedure was started!

 

Mark Saunders

[jjb1970]

Expecting human beings to behave rationally and sensibly by themselves is never going to make level crossings safer (or anything else).

 

The object of the exercise is to find ways to make them change their existing behaviour. Which means understanding the way they think, even if that is clearly bonkers to me and you.

 

Martin.

This sums up so much of modern risk management. Given that it is entirely predictable that human beings are unpredictable and prone to poor judgement it is essential to try and understand what drives behaviours and to try and make systems resilient to what is generally called human error.

[Reorte]

In the early 1990's there was a major programme of tagging crossings to see which ones were actually being used, they were sealed with a dated tag and if not used within a certain time the closure procedure was started!

What sort of period? With farming it's quite possible that their usage pattern is very season-specific.

[The Stationmaster]

What sort of period? With farming it's quite possible that their usage pattern is very season-specific.

 

The GWML checks prior to HST arrival (for the Bristol/WSM and Swansea routes were done by a walk through (by one man to ensure consistency) over a period of several months through spring and summer but didn't cover everything as they were only really needed on the high speed line sections.

 

But it was usually fairly easy to spot the extent to which accommodation crossings were used - especially if there was a hedge or small trees growing along the fence line.  Back in the mid 1970s I had a list of every occupation & accommodation crossing between Wilton South and Exmouth Jcn (probably dating from Southern Railway days, as information in the GWR side of our patch was a lot poorer and the only list we had was one I put together from various sources).  Anyway I did find when I had occasion to visit the sites of a number of crossings that they very clearly hadn't been used for years.  We had a collision with a herd of heffers at one of the Forde Abbey crossings and trying to find the site some months later for some additional information it quickly became obvious that the farmer had reduced his use to only one of the three crossings he had, the other two were overgrown by hedgerow and weren't easy to find unless you knew their mileage.

 

Similarly many of those shut for HST operation on the GWML hadn't been used for many years and often consisted of no more than a decrepit gate in each fence line and no sort of crossing surface between them.

[Mark Saunders]

What sort of period? With farming it's quite possible that their usage pattern is very season-specific.

 

I never di know what the time period was, I only had to know where the list of tagged crossings was kept in case a potential user followed the instructions on the tag!

 

Some of the crossings that were tagged were so badly overgrown it was obvious they had never been used for years!

 

Mark Saunders

[beast66606]

A bit of stupid at Eccles Road tonight,

 

I was photographing the empty stone train heading back to the Peaks and as I packed up after it's passing I heard the wah wahs for the barriers sounding again, "mmm, nothing around" I thought so I finished packing and as I wandered down to the crossing I saw a car start to cross with the lights flashing, luckily for them my camera was away. It was then evident that the barriers were still up. As the car was crossing the barriers dropped and they sped away, just missing getting hit by one. By the time I got to the crossing 3 barriers were down but one, on the approach side (i.e the worse case) was still up.

A lady was talking to the bobby and it was agreed between us that dropping all the barriers and leaving them down was the safest move.  The bobby dropped the barriers and for the next half hour, until I had to leave, I (unofficially) directed cars to turn around and assisted several big vans and 1 big lorry to do the same - I even got abused by a member of the public because "it's the second time I've been caught today" - "I don't work for the railway mate, I'm only trying to help" "^£$%$er" was his helpful reply. I bit my tongue as the lady who lives next to the crossing was out watching and I didn't want her hearing my Anglo Saxon - but for 30/40 minutes I managed to keep the road moving, if it hadn't been for family stuff I'd probably still be there !

 

You see Bobby boy, I'm not always bad.

[RJS1977]

A bit of stupid at Eccles Road tonight,

 

 

What do you expect with a name like Eccles?

[kevinlms]

The old, abandon a stolen car trick.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/vline-train-crashes-into-stolen-4wd-dumped-on-train-tracks-at-jacana-20160425-goesqv.html

 

So much for the owner pleading for his vehicle to be returned - it ain't a lot of use now!

 

No doubt there will be more on this foolishness.

[martin_wynne]

But hardly anyone anywhere now seems able to get things right. Someone somewhere must have successfully cancelled a direct debit first time, or changed internet provider without incident, but I don't know anyone.

 

In the news just today we have a schools spelling test posted online by mistake, and the Conservative Party failing to record their election expenses correctly. Here the local council have just painted a bus stop on the wrong side of the road.

 

And today:

 

"The variety that was incorrectly planted was Red Sentinel and this was noticed by a member of council staff from the Countryside Service once the tree started to bud. The correct variety, which is being planted today, is Malus Tribata. The issue is around the amount of fruit and how much of a problem it could make for pedestrians. The correct variety is Malus Tribata, which, as a native of much hotter climates, will only fruit here during a very hot summer, reducing the chance of fruit falling on the pavements, and lessening the chance of creating slip hazards." - Spokesperson, Worcestershire County Council

 

Martin.

[RJS1977]

And today:

 

"The variety that was incorrectly planted was Red Sentinel and this was noticed by a member of council staff from the Countryside Service once the tree started to bud. The correct variety, which is being planted today, is Malus Tribata. The issue is around the amount of fruit and how much of a problem it could make for pedestrians. The correct variety is Malus Tribata, which, as a native of much hotter climates, will only fruit here during a very hot summer, reducing the chance of fruit falling on the pavements, and lessening the chance of creating slip hazards." - Spokesperson, Worcestershire County Council

 

Martin.

 

Not the first time the wrong thing's been planted in Worcestershire - in 1896(?) the county cricket club accidentally re-seeded the pitch with turnip seed!

[kevinlms]

Not the first time the wrong thing's been planted in Worcestershire - in 1896(?) the county cricket club accidentally re-seeded the pitch with turnip seed!

Did the other side turn ip?

[Gwiwer]

Perhaps not "stupidity" but rather than open a new topic I'll drop this in here.

 

A broken rail caused track circuits to fail and multiple level crossings along a busy commuter line into Melbourne, Australia, to fail-safe with booms lowered for an extended time.  During which one addition to the local population was recorded ..... 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/a-melbourne-mum-has-given-birth-while-stuck-at-faulty-boom-gates-in-clayton/news-story/ef3daa87d16b3f305d34390bf556cb79?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HaraldSun&utm_medium=Facebook

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps not "stupidity" but rather than open a new topic I'll drop this in here.

 

A broken rail caused track circuits to fail and multiple level crossings along a busy commuter line into Melbourne, Australia, to fail-safe with booms lowered for an extended time.  During which one addition to the local population was recorded ..... 

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/a-melbourne-mum-has-given-birth-while-stuck-at-faulty-boom-gates-in-clayton/news-story/ef3daa87d16b3f305d34390bf556cb79?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HaraldSun&utm_medium=Facebook

 

Shows the problems that can result when level crossing operation is linked to track circuits  - BR had more sense (or wanted to save money)

[laurenceb]

Perhaps not "stupidity" but rather than open a new topic I'll drop this in here.

 

A broken rail caused track circuits to fail and multiple level crossings along a busy commuter line into Melbourne, Australia, to fail-safe with booms lowered for an extended time.  During which one addition to the local population was recorded ..... 

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/a-melbourne-mum-has-given-birth-while-stuck-at-faulty-boom-gates-in-clayton/news-story/ef3daa87d16b3f305d34390bf556cb79?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HaraldSun&utm_medium=Facebook

Time tide & babies wait for no one

[martin_wynne]

Another RAIB report on a level crossing accident published today:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/raib-report-072016-collision-between-train-and-tractor

Full report: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519117/R072016_160428_Oakwood_Farm.pdf

This RMweb topic is titled "Level crossing stupidity" and there is much criticism of road drivers. But several times recently the RAIB report has found the railway at fault. The classic case was Moreton-on-Lugg.

 

Now again today we find:

 

"It was situated at such a distance from the crossing that the time it took for the tractor driver to stop, open the gates and then drive onto the crossing, was greater than the time between the warning light turning red and the arrival of the train. There was no sign at the button to warn the driver to recheck the warning light before going over the crossing. The investigation also found that the warning light was not conspicuous among the many signs present at the crossing.

The underlying causes of the accident were that Network Rail did not ensure that the risks at the crossing were adequately mitigated, and that the process for the introduction of the gate operating equipment was adequately managed."

 

Martin.

[Penlan]

.......  I take the bus to work most days and the number of times I see pedestrians and cars making semi-suicidal lunges in front of approaching buses is quite disturbing.......

When I worked in Beijing for a while, you would swear the person that had just walked in front of the bus would be dead, but they appeared, continuing their journey, from what seemed like halfway along the bus's other side.  

As a passenger it was nerve wracking.

Front seats in the buses were normally only occupied by new arrivals in Beijing, they soon moved to other seats on the buses.