Level crossing stupidity...

[martin_wynne]

And FWIW the road that is crossed by that rail overbridge is actually King's Place - although to be fair it does simply change its name to Marshall Place just a couple of blocks to the East.  There's no clear delineation point as you drive along it

 

Here's the actual point. Between the two is King James Place, see: https://goo.gl/maps/JapZwo69e3w

[locoholic]

Does this count as Level Crossing Stupidity?

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-45976460

[duncan]

Thought at first that it was a recovery lorry, now seen to be plant transport - was the driver hoping the tram would drive up onto the lorry ?

[jamie92208]

Not good but Tony Miles from Modern Railways made the point that it was a good thing that it was a Tram Train with additional collision protection. Only 2 minor injuries out of 90 on board which is good.

 

Jamie

[jim.snowdon]

No collision is ever good, but road drivers coming through red traffic lights (this is a road junction, not a level crossing) is an occupational hazard for tram operators. And although the news report may be technically correct in saying the tram hit the Larry, it is almost certain not the fault of the tram. Even when road vehicles drive into the side of trams (because the tram legitimately got there first) the press tends to describe it as "car hit by tram" . Forward facing cctv is a common fitment on trams, and extremely useful in cases such as this.

That it was a tram:train vehicle is completely incidental and almost certainly has nothing to do with the outcome.

 

The fundamental problem, and one that affects both highway junctions, including those with tramways, and railway level crossings, is the growing tendency of motorists to take the chance of going through a red aspect just after it has come up. Amber is no longer being treated as a requirement to stop if it is safe and practicable to do so, but an indication to speed up and get through before the opposing traffic does. At its heart is a failure of enforcement of road traffic law, which is down to a lack of police resources caused by politicians wanting to avoid applying taxation and at the same time saddling the police with more bureaucracy.

 

Jim

[bbishop]

It's the fault of the tram driver.  He didn't take avoiding action.

 

Bill

[jwealleans]

Exactly. Should have followed Richard Branson's advice and steered the tram to safety.

[Wickham Green]

Exactly. Should have followed Richard Branson's advice and steered the tram to safety.

You sure he didn't try - it's two metre off the track after all ( looks more than that to me ).

[PatB]

No collision is ever good, but road drivers coming through red traffic lights (this is a road junction, not a level crossing) is an occupational hazard for tram operators. And although the news report may be technically correct in saying the tram hit the Larry, it is almost certain not the fault of the tram. Even when road vehicles drive into the side of trams (because the tram legitimately got there first) the press tends to describe it as "car hit by tram" . Forward facing cctv is a common fitment on trams, and extremely useful in cases such as this.

That it was a tram:train vehicle is completely incidental and almost certainly has nothing to do with the outcome.

 

The fundamental problem, and one that affects both highway junctions, including those with tramways, and railway level crossings, is the growing tendency of motorists to take the chance of going through a red aspect just after it has come up. Amber is no longer being treated as a requirement to stop if it is safe and practicable to do so, but an indication to speed up and get through before the opposing traffic does. At its heart is a failure of enforcement of road traffic law, which is down to a lack of police resources caused by politicians wanting to avoid applying taxation and at the same time saddling the police with more bureaucracy.

 

Jim

Green---------Go

 

Amber---------Accelerate

 

Red-----------Accelerate, paying particular attention to steering

 

Seriously though, the general ignorance of amber being a stop signal isn't confined to the UK. There're been a couple of instances when I've stopped appropriately on my motorcycle, only to have a bebullbarred 4wd blast through the gap between me and the central reservation at full road speed or a bit more.

[Coryton]

Green---------Go

 

Amber---------Accelerate

 

Red-----------Accelerate, paying particular attention to steering

 

Seriously though, the general ignorance of amber being a stop signal isn't confined to the UK. There're been a couple of instances when I've stopped appropriately on my motorcycle, only to have a bebullbarred 4wd blast through the gap between me and the central reservation at full road speed or a bit more.

 

I think you're right, and I suspect that some people convince themselves that they're doing the right thing going through a red light just after it's changed because it would be dangerous to brake sharply, ignoring the fact that if they'd treated the amber light in the correct manner they would have had ample time to stop before the light went red.

 

It seems to me that most drivers who don't treat amber as an invitation to speed up just consider it as the same as a green light. You don't need to think about stopping until it goes red and if it's too late to stop at that point then you just go through.

[ejstubbs]

Seriously though, the general ignorance of amber being a stop signal isn't confined to the UK.

 

More than once I have been tooted at angrily by a cranio-genitally enhanced person because I had the temerity to stop at an amber light when they were up my arse following me, very often with less than the recommended two second gap between my vehicle and theirs.

[talisman56]

On my recent visit to British Columbia, on major roads there was an advance warning sign reading the equivalent of 'road junction controlled by siignals, be prepared to stop' with a pair of amber lights on each side which started to flash a few seconds before the amber aspect appeared on the junction lights. These gave ample protection to the junction, and, judging by other driver behaviour, enabled them to use the amber aspect for its correct function. Perhaps we should think about adopting something like that over here...

[Coryton]

On my recent visit to British Columbia, on major roads there was an advance warning sign reading the equivalent of 'road junction controlled by siignals, be prepared to stop' with a pair of amber lights on each side which started to flash a few seconds before the amber aspect appeared on the junction lights. These gave ample protection to the junction, and, judging by other driver behaviour, enabled them to use the amber aspect for its correct function. Perhaps we should think about adopting something like that over here...

 

DIstant signals!

 

But no, I think what we have now should be perfectly adequate.

 

There just needs to be appropriate action taken against people who have decided to ignore the way things are supposed to work.

[melmerby]

No collision is ever good, but road drivers coming through red traffic lights (this is a road junction, not a level crossing) is an occupational hazard for tram operators.

 

Jim

Here's the location on Google:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3910339,-1.4333446,3a,75y,75.79h,71.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV-e_8RP4DGHP7FR8flrTwg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Keith

 

EDIT

According to the speed signs the tram can be doing 25kph over the road crossing and the tram has it's own traffic signals to allow it to proceed.

Another view with a tram:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.3905624,-1.4337353,3a,24.8y,46.63h,82.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syUcxXK8-0po_yNfICi5NFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Edited October 26, 2018 by melmerby

[ejstubbs]

According to the speed signs the tram can be doing 25kph over the road crossing and the tram has it's own traffic signals to allow it to proceed.

 

In Edinburgh they do have separate signals for the trams, but at most junctions they simply operate in sync with the traffic lights.  For example, this set of lights at the Princes Street/Mound/Hanover Street junction. (The tram signal is the single aspect one sharing a pole with the pedestrian light and press button.  Notice also that the tram track has no stop line.)

 

At each end of the Haymarket tram stop there is a pelican crossing which has only tram signals for road traffic.  That's because the tram stop has a clear no entry sign at each end, with an "except trams" sign beneath it.  This is all fine, until a cyclist decides to ignore the no entry sign and ride through the tram stop (between the raised tram platforms, and running the non-trivial risk of getting a wheel caught in the track...but that's another rant).  Not having the slightest clue what a tram signal means, some such cyclists see fit to breeze through the pelican crossings even when pedestrians have a green light.  One nearly took me out the other morning.  I'd have remonstrated with them if I hadn't been so shocked at almost being run in to (not unlike a day or two earlier when an impatient van driver had mounted the pavement to pass a car waiting to turn right, nearly running me down as I walked round the corner of the junction on the left immediately following).

[Coryton]

.  Not having the slightest clue what a tram signal means, some such cyclists see fit to breeze through the pelican crossings even when pedestrians have a green light.  One nearly took me out the other morning.  I'd have remonstrated with them if I hadn't been so shocked at almost being run in to 

 

 

I could be cynical (not to mention being off topic) and say that if it's anywhere like where I live, it might not make much difference if there was a regular red light for the cyclist to see.

[melmerby]

In Edinburgh they do have separate signals for the trams, but at most junctions they simply operate in sync with the traffic lights.  For example, this set of lights at the Princes Street/Mound/Hanover Street junction. (The tram signal is the single aspect one sharing a pole with the pedestrian light and press button.  Notice also that the tram track has no stop line.)

 

 

The tram signal, although single aspect has three display possibilities.

A vertical line meaning proceed. A horizontal line meaning stop and a small cross (like a plus sign) as it changes from proceed to stop.

In Birmingham, although the signals are on the same post where they share the traffic with road vehicles they are not totally synchronised as the tram aspects only change if a tram is present.

 

Again in Brum there are stretches of road prohibited to other road vehicles, although two wheel users seem to think that doesn't apply to them and regular ride along it.

I witnessed one of the plonker cyclists actually getting his wheel stuck in the tram track, he went straight over the handlebars. I laughed somewhat but it could have been serious if he was close to a tram.

The worst culprits are the Deliveroo & Uber eats moped riders. Nobody ever does anything about them, even the police totally ignore their law breaking, so it will carry on.

 

Keith

[ejstubbs]

In Birmingham, although the signals are on the same post where they share the traffic with road vehicles they are not totally synchronised as the tram aspects only change if a tram is present.

 

May well be the same in Edinburgh (certainly the signals displayed on the single aspects are the same).  I've never hung around long enough to find out TBH.

 

Again in Brum there are stretches of road prohibited to other road vehicles, although two wheel users seem to think that doesn't apply to them and regular ride along it.

I witnessed one of the plonker cyclists actually getting his wheel stuck in the tram track, he went straight over the handlebars. I laughed somewhat but it could have been serious if he was close to a tram.

 

I once saw a bloke on a bike follow a tram along the westbound platform line at Haymarket, then pull out to pass the tram when, predictably enough, it came to a halt.  This manoeuvre meant crossing the eastbound tram lines at a very acute and therefore dangerous angle.  Which was bad enough, but the tram tracks turn quite sharply left and downhill just west of the tram stop, which meant that with a westbound tram already in the stop and him on its right, he had absolutely no way of seeing whether an eastbound tram might be approaching.  If one had been, he'd have found himself stuck between a stationary tram on his left and a raised tram platform on his right, with a tram bearing down on him from directly in front.  Why on earth he thought this would be a sensible position to put himself in I doubt even his god would have been able to explain.  Basically, he was an idiot, and a lucky one.

 

Bear in mind that there is a perfectly good road running parallel to the tram tracks just the other side of the tram platform.  There is no need for these people to break the law in order to get where they want to go.

 

Mind you, I have seen motor vehicles happily drive along other clearly signposted tram only sections of road (although not against the direction of the tram, with no way of knowing whether a tram might be approaching, with no ready means of escape to the side).

 

I have recently noticed that the incidence of people riding bikes along the actual tram platforms seems to have declined, which (speaking as someone who walks that way twice a day at least during the week) is nice.

Edited October 26, 2018 by ejstubbs

[PatB]

On my recent visit to British Columbia, on major roads there was an advance warning sign reading the equivalent of 'road junction controlled by siignals, be prepared to stop' with a pair of amber lights on each side which started to flash a few seconds before the amber aspect appeared on the junction lights. These gave ample protection to the junction, and, judging by other driver behaviour, enabled them to use the amber aspect for its correct function. Perhaps we should think about adopting something like that over here...

 

We've got those. They don't necessarily help.

[kevinlms]

The tram signal, although single aspect has three display possibilities.

A vertical line meaning proceed. A horizontal line meaning stop and a small cross (like a plus sign) as it changes from proceed to stop.

In Birmingham, although the signals are on the same post where they share the traffic with road vehicles they are not totally synchronised as the tram aspects only change if a tram is present.

 

Again in Brum there are stretches of road prohibited to other road vehicles, although two wheel users seem to think that doesn't apply to them and regular ride along it.

I witnessed one of the plonker cyclists actually getting his wheel stuck in the tram track, he went straight over the handlebars. I laughed somewhat but it could have been serious if he was close to a tram.

The worst culprits are the Deliveroo & Uber eats moped riders. Nobody ever does anything about them, even the police totally ignore their law breaking, so it will carry on.

 

Keith

Here's an example in Melbourne, of a traffic light with the works. It's a wonder the thing doesn't fall over with the weight.

 

https://www.danielbowen.com/2014/08/12/you-shall-not-pass/

 

See the comments too, for some history, relating to before it was blocked to cars/trucks, except at night.

 

Other places in Melbourne do have the 3 position line, referred to earlier in the thread. New ones show a tram icon.

[LMS2968]

Any ideas?

 

[Jonboy]

Any ideas?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3QmuCSqiKE

The swing bridge looks the same design as this one, so guess there is a canal below?

Edited November 4, 2018 by Jonboy

[PhilJ W]

The swing bridge looks the same design as this one, so guess there is a canal below?

The sign to the left of the tracks indicates that there is.

[Budgie]

Any ideas?

 

I'm surprised they haven't electrified the swing bridge.

[EddieB]

Is it based on the one featured in the Great Model Railway Challenge?