Level crossing stupidity...

[RJS1977]

Not sure a car coming to a halt in the middle of a level crossing with four flat tires and a train approaching will be much of a safety improvement...

 

Or this might happen...

 

https://youtu.be/P9O0yQbhqj0?t=76

[PhilJ W]

They do on the rail side. Fool comes belting along the road, hits something, goes flying up in the air... Yeah, I'm being a bit silly there but people have managed to do sillier things in cars.

There was an incident a few years back where a car had left the road and crashed into the roof of a house, in Norfolk IIRC.

[royaloak]

If he was jumping the Red as was stated then the amber light would not be lit.

rgds

Possibly because there has to be evidence that the yellow light was lit before the reds started, why I dont know because they dont need it at ordinary traffic lights but its one possibility.

[RJS1977]

There was an incident a few years back where a car had left the road and crashed into the roof of a house, in Norfolk IIRC.

 

Like this? https://youtu.be/D1MDwVRgoQc?t=112

[Budgie]

Or this might happen...

 

https://youtu.be/P9O0yQbhqj0?t=76

Oh, dear.

[talisman56]

Like this? https://youtu.be/D1MDwVRgoQc?t=112

 

I doubt whether Norfolk has anything like that sort of topography...

[The Stationmaster]

Gates and Keepers........job done.

 

If you go back to the time when auto and gated level crossings were relatively equal in numbers the incident rate at manually worked gated crossings was greater than that at automated crossings.  In part that may well have been due to the fact that there was somebody at the manned crossing who could report the incident but more importantly the number of collisions involving vehicle damage was a pretty obvious measure and it was a higher number at manually worked crossings than at automated crossings

[boxbrownie]

If you go back to the time when auto and gated level crossings were relatively equal in numbers the incident rate at manually worked gated crossings was greater than that at automated crossings.  In part that may well have been due to the fact that there was somebody at the manned crossing who could report the incident but more importantly the number of collisions involving vehicle damage was a pretty obvious measure and it was a higher number at manually worked crossings than at automated crossings

What was the number of vehicle/train collisions difference rather than gate/infrastructure collisions?

[phil-b259]

Yeah, I'm being a bit silly there but people have managed to do sillier things in cars.

 

What like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-45843691/shocking-dashcam-videos-released-by-norfolk-and-suffolk-police

[boxbrownie]

What like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-45843691/shocking-dashcam-videos-released-by-norfolk-and-suffolk-police

Haha.....daughter sent me that a few weeks ago, taken by one of her friends.

[beast66606]

What like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-norfolk-45843691/shocking-dashcam-videos-released-by-norfolk-and-suffolk-police

 

Just down the road from me - Attleborough roundabout on the A11

[The Stationmaster]

What was the number of vehicle/train collisions difference rather than gate/infrastructure collisions?

 

I don't have that info but I do have the following which includes fatalities and that might be a useful guide.  all figures are for teh period 1970-75, the detail I have most immediately available to hand.

 

Number of manned gated crossings (average number over that period) 1,418

Average number of 'accidents' per year -  63.3, 

Average number of fatalities per year - 3.3

% Accident rate per year - 4.4

% Rate of persons killed per year - 0.2

 

Number of AHB at 11.12.75  224

Average number of accidents per year -  3.7

Average number of persons killed per year -  0.5

% Accident rate per year  -  1.7

% Rate of persons killed per year -  0.2

 

Total numbers of incident causes at AHB Crossings 1964 - 1976

Disobeyed traffic signals or zig-zagged 10

Skidded onto railway and hit by train     9

Stopped on crossing                              7

Vandalism                                               3

Skidded through barrier into path of train 2

Long slow vehicle hit by train (Hixon).    1

Drivers of mopeds or cyclists                 3

Animals on crossing                                4

Pedestrians                                             3 

 

Source - 1978 study into Level Crossing Protection publlshed by HMRI

[jcm@gwr]

Interesting info there, but I'm intrigued as to what

the difference is between:-

 

Skidded onto railway and hit by train   9,       and

Skidded through barrier into path of train   2?

 

Does that mean the second 'Skidding' didn't result

in a collision?

[boxbrownie]

Interesting info there, but I'm intrigued as to what

the difference is between:-

 

Skidded onto railway and hit by train   9,       and

Skidded through barrier into path of train   2?

 

Does that mean the second 'Skidding' didn't result

in a collision?

Yes, interesting but disjointed unfortunately.

[jamie92208]

Yes, interesting but disjointed unfortunately.

I suspect that the ones that skidded through the barriers did just that and the others that just skidded did so on the other side of the road not covered by a barrier.

 

Jamie

[Derekl]

I don't have that info but I do have the following which includes fatalities and that might be a useful guide.  all figures are for teh period 1970-75, the detail I have most immediately available to hand.

 

Number of manned gated crossings (average number over that period) 1,418

Average number of 'accidents' per year -  63.3, 

Average number of fatalities per year - 3.3

% Accident rate per year - 4.4

% Rate of persons killed per year - 0.2

 

Number of AHB at 11.12.75  224

Average number of accidents per year -  3.7

Average number of persons killed per year -  0.5

% Accident rate per year  -  1.7

% Rate of persons killed per year -  0.2

 

Total numbers of incident causes at AHB Crossings 1964 - 1976

Disobeyed traffic signals or zig-zagged 10

Skidded onto railway and hit by train     9

Stopped on crossing                              7

Vandalism                                               3

Skidded through barrier into path of train 2

Long slow vehicle hit by train (Hixon).    1

Drivers of mopeds or cyclists                 3

Animals on crossing                                4

Pedestrians                                             3 

 

Source - 1978 study into Level Crossing Protection publlshed by HMRI

 

The statistics may be affected as first there are only 224 AHBs as against 1,418 manned gated crossings. When first installed ANBs went on roads that had less vehicular traffic as I recall. I am not sure that rail traffic density was a criterion, but it may have been, or may have been part of a formula. Since they were already on less busy roads, there would naturally be fewer incidents. The significant number of skidding incidents may suggest that the road surfaces weren't the best. 

[melmerby]

Here's another US one where the car comes off worst:

 

 

They had sense enouigh to abandon ship.

 

Keith

[Reorte]

The statistics may be affected as first there are only 224 AHBs as against 1,418 manned gated crossings. When first installed ANBs went on roads that had less vehicular traffic as I recall. I am not sure that rail traffic density was a criterion, but it may have been, or may have been part of a formula. Since they were already on less busy roads, there would naturally be fewer incidents. The significant number of skidding incidents may suggest that the road surfaces weren't the best.

There are percentage accident rates in those figures, which should remove the bias due to the number of each crossing types but not any due to the different nature of the roads involved.

[jamie92208]

Here's another US one where the car comes off worst:

 

 

They had sense enouigh to abandon ship.

 

Keith

It also gives a very good example of how long it takes for a train to stop.

 

Jamie

[melmerby]

It also gives a very good example of how long it takes for a train to stop.

 

Jamie

Especially in America

 

I took time once to count the number of loaded 100T hoppers in a train, it was 135. That wasn't a particularly long train either.

They were 50' long and therefore the train totalled 13500T mass and 6750' length, so an awful lot of train to stop.

I suppose theoretically all trains should be able to stop in the same distance as the longer it is the more brakes there are countering the increase in mass?

 

Keith                                       

[jim.snowdon]

Especially in America

 

I took time once to count the number of loaded 100T hoppers in a train, it was 135. That wasn't a particularly long train either.

They were 50' long and therefore the train totalled 13500T mass and 6750' length, so an awful lot of train to stop.

I suppose theoretically all trains should be able to stop in the same distance as the longer it is the more brakes there are countering the increase in mass?

 

Keith

 

Although as the train length increases, so does the time it takes to get a brake pipe pressure reduction down the length of the train, which reduces the rate at which the full brake effort can be achieved. Controlling the brakes on very long trains can be a tricky (and highly skilled) business. It's also, as far as I am aware, part of the reasoning behind inserting assisting locomotives part way down the train.

 

Not that how long the train takes to stop is of particular importance once the vehicle that shouldn't be on the crossing gets struck.

 

Jim

[Arun Sharma]

Although as the train length increases, so does the time it takes to get a brake pipe pressure reduction down the length of the train, which reduces the rate at which the full brake effort can be achieved. Controlling the brakes on very long trains can be a tricky (and highly skilled) business. It's also, as far as I am aware, part of the reasoning behind inserting assisting locomotives part way down the train.

 

Not that how long the train takes to stop is of particular importance once the vehicle that shouldn't be on the crossing gets struck.

 

Jim

Interesting comment Jim - Isn't this the reason why the MDR & UERL used the electro-pneumatic brake back in the early years of the last century so that brake force was applied more smoothly throughout the length of a train? Do any freight trains in the UK use EPB systems? Presumably permanently coupled rakes of wagons could have such braking systems?

Edited October 16, 2018 by ted675

[melmerby]

Although as the train length increases, so does the time it takes to get a brake pipe pressure reduction down the length of the train, which reduces the rate at which the full brake effort can be achieved. Controlling the brakes on very long trains can be a tricky (and highly skilled) business. It's also, as far as I am aware, part of the reasoning behind inserting assisting locomotives part way down the train.

 

Not that how long the train takes to stop is of particular importance once the vehicle that shouldn't be on the crossing gets struck.

 

Jim

They don't seem to be used anymore.

Watching on Virtual Railfan's locations, depending on the train load, the leading locos can be anywhere between typically 2 and up to 5 or six, with possibly another couple on the rear.

As yet I haven't seen any mid train locos.

The trains themselves can be up to 2½ or more miles in length and some take an awful long time to get through a road crossing!

 

Keith

[jamie92208]

Interesting comment Jim - Isn't this the reason why the MDR & UERL used the electro-pneumatic brake back in the early years of the last century so that brake force was applied more smoothly throughout the length of a train? Do any freight trains in the UK use EPB systems? Presumably permanently coupled rakes of wagons could have such braking systems?

A few years ago there was a push to fit EPB's to container trains in the states and a few rakes were wired up. The trials were very good and stopping distances and train breakages were reduced however they decided not to make it mandatory so the idea was dropped. As mentioned above the remote locos assist with brake pressure propagation which can be a problem especially in cold weather.

 

 

Jamie

Edited October 16, 2018 by jamie92208

[talisman56]

From my observations, the north American system (US and Canada) appears to differ from the UK in that there is only one brake hose between freight vehicles.